NRARI, Announcement

jaycee

I go to unwind and enjoy my sport, not get into a political argument and I will not ring anyone to get into an argument either.

Me too,

What argument could you possibly get into for clarifying any of those points

The reason I suggested contacting the range directly was that it's
around the renewal time and ther may be fee changes and the like .
I'm not involved of the running of things so I wouldn't know

Therefore , I thought it was a perfectly rational suggestion since you would be in contact with them anyway.. Oh well !

vlmaxis

And then said:

So your question really was, will the MNSCI let you shoot as a part of the Irish National Team for €300. And I think we've already had a thread on that point and the answer was no, but if you made it onto the National Team, you'd be paying that much in expenses. Which is the same deal as with most other forms of competitive shooting - few NGBs cover 100% of the costs their teams fact in international competition. Besides which, the MNSCI is not the NGB - so the decision of who's on the team belongs to the NRAI, not the MNSCI.

[/QUOTE]

I know I said I was not writing on this anymore but I had not seen Sparks reply.
Sparks, you are an educated man, so stop twisting things and reading things wrong just so you can try to win an argument, you know that is not the question I asked, the question I asked was very simple, but it is not being answered.
Look the NRAI is not the NGB for fullbore shooting in Ireland, and anyone who thinks they are is entitled to believe so.
I say it again There is no fullbore NGB in Ireland at this time, and when there is I will be one of the first shooters to join them, but that will be on the bases that they are recognized by all Irish and International NGBs, and that all Irish shooters will have a chance to vote them in.

Sparks

the NRAI is not the NGB for fullbore shooting in Ireland

Depends on who you ask. Frankly, I'd go with the international body. Recognition by the Sports Council and other Irish administrative bodies would be meaningless in this context.

that will be on the bases that they are recognized by all Irish and International NGBs, and that all Irish shooters will have a chance to vote them in.

The problem with this is twofold;
1) There is no Irish body which can designate or recognise a fullbore NGB. The NRPAI may claim to recognise one body or another, but that's meaningless because they have no authority to do so. And as to International recognition, that was already given and then sabotaged. The fact that it could be sabotaged is not sufficient reason to say that the NRAI is not an NGB.

2) Shooters have never been given a vote in whether or not any shooting body is an NGB. Why would it start now?

vlmaxis

[

The problem with this is twofold;
1) There is no Irish body which can designate or recognise a fullbore NGB. The NRPAI may claim to recognise one body or another, but that's meaningless because they have no authority to do so. And as to International recognition, that was already given and then sabotaged. The fact that it could be sabotaged is not sufficient reason to say that the NRAI is not an NGB.

You use a strong word (sabotage), I don't believe that there was sabotage, I believe that the majority of fullbore shooters wanted to have a choice.

2) Shooters have never been given a vote in whether or not any shooting body is an NGB. Why would it start now?

[/QUOTE]

maybe that's the problem, you would not like to see a political party getting into government without having a say, would You?, Why shouldn't it start now?, surely we are all entitled to a vote?.

Sparks

vlmaxis wrote:

You use a strong word (sabotage)

I did. Going to an international body to discredit a national body is a thing that deserves strong words.

I don't believe that there was sabotage, I believe that the majority of fullbore shooters wanted to have a choice.

So you know what happened then?

maybe that's the problem

I'd say that it might well be one of the problems with administration in shooting in general.

Why shouldn't it start now?

Because then only the NRAI would be subject to a vote. The NRPAI, NTSA, NSAI, NASRC, ICPSA, Pony club, IPSA and LRRAI would all have to go through the same procedure if it was to be fair.

surely we are all entitled to a vote?.

Are we? I don't shoot F-class, should I get a vote? I wouldn't think so. But how do you come up with the list of people who are allowed to vote in any kind of fair manner?

Do you take those who own the gear? Then what about club shooters who don't own their own gear yet?

Do you take those who turn up on the day? Are you nuts?

Do you take those who compete? But what of those who have no interest in competition?

Do you take those who run clubs? But what about the shooters?

Saying we're all entitled to a vote is a strong emotional argument, yes. But frankly, it's not always correct or fair. For example, witness the 2004 NRPAI AGM. Someone asks if the floor should have a vote. The answer "of course we should" was the wrong answer here, because it means that a bunch of people who turn up get a vote which outweighs the legitimate representatives of far more people who didn't turn up.

vlmaxis

Besides which, the MNSCI is not the NGB - so the decision of who's on the team belongs to the NRAI, not the MNSCI.

[/QUOTE]

Just on another note, The above is true until a member of a club or team who has been banned from MNSCI in the past, cannot shoot F class unless it is held on a different range, and we know there is no other range at this time,
therefor an individual or team will be penalized by the NRAI for an incident that happened in an other club, by not allowing him/her to shoot because they are told so by a club that is, as you say, not an NGB,.
This is not hearsay, this is fact, it has happened.

vlmaxis

QUOTE=Sparks]I did. Going to an international body to discredit a national body is a thing that deserves strong words.
[

They were not the NGB.
Furthermore who went to who? fact only please, not supposition.

Saying we're all entitled to a vote is a strong emotional argument, yes. But frankly, it's not always correct or fair. For example, witness the 2004 NRPAI AGM. Someone asks if the floor should have a vote. The answer "of course we should" was the wrong answer here, because it means that a bunch of people who turn up get a vote which outweighs the legitimate representatives of far more people who didn't turn up.

[/QUOTE]


WE live in a democracy, if you don't turn up to vote, you loose!.

Sparks

vlmaxis wrote:

Just on another note, The above is true until a member of a club or team who has been banned from MNSCI in the past, cannot shoot F class unless it is held on a different range, and we know there is no other range at this time,

But as I understand it, there has only been one person banned from the MNSCI range, and that was over safety issues, and that person was given a hearing and due process.
That's hardly a despotic way to run things - in fact if things were not run that way, I'd be worried. Safety on a range must always be paramount.

This is not hearsay, this is fact, it has happened.

Whom to?

Sparks

vlmaxis wrote:

They were not the NGB.

Says whom?

Furthermore who went to who? fact only please, not supposition.

I don't know who went to whom, so I wrote off to find out. I'll post any reply I get. In the meantime, perhaps you would post what facts you have on the matter. You've already said that you believe the majority of shooters wanted a choice, therefore either you've asked all the shooters yourself or you've seen the results of such a poll. Could you post that here please?
You've also said you don't believe there was sabotage, therefore you must know more than has been posted here. Could you post what you know here please?

WE live in a democracy, if you don't turn up to vote, you loose!.

Actually, that's highly misleading and inaccurate. What happened at the NRPAI AGM was exactly the same as if the visitors in the Dail visitors gallery were given a vote in Dail Eireann because they happened to be there on the day, even though the rules strictly said they had no vote.

vlmaxis

[

QUOTE=Sparks]But as I understand it, there has only been one person banned from the MNSCI range, and that was over safety issues, and that person was given a hearing and due process.
That's hardly a despotic way to run things - in fact if things were not run that way, I'd be worried. Safety on a range must always be paramount.


Whom to?

[/QUOTE]

If there was only one person banned, then you can answer this yourself, I am not posting peoples names.

vlmaxis

Sparks wrote:

Says whom?

Who says they are?

I don't know who went to whom, so I wrote off to find out. I'll post any reply I get. In the meantime, perhaps you would post what facts you have on the matter. You've already said that you believe the majority of shooters wanted a choice, therefore either you've asked all the shooters yourself or you've seen the results of such a poll. Could you post that here please?
You've also said you don't believe there was sabotage, therefore you must know more than has been posted here. Could you post what you know here please?

The facts speak for themselves.

Actually, that's highly misleading and inaccurate

.

That we live in a democrocy and if you don't vote you have no say?, I can't believe you said the above.

Sparks

vlmaxis wrote:

If there was only one person banned, then you can answer this your self, I am not posting peoples names.

So you're confirming then that we're talking about the same person? In other words, you're complaining that the NRAI has no right to be an NGB because one person (who was barred from a range following due process and a formal hearing on safety grounds) couldn't train on the MNSCI range and thus couldn't make it into an Irish Team? Even though this person is actually a member of the LRRAI committee and lives closer to a fullbore range in another country than he does to the MNSCI range?

Does that not sound like a wee bit of a stretch to you vlmaxis?

Sparks

vlmaxis wrote:

Who says they are?

The shooters in them and the international body.

The facts speak for themselves.

In other words, you haven't a clue.

That we live in a democrocy and if you don't vote you have no say?, I can't believe you said that.

I can't believe you even think that that's an argument! Go on then vlm, tell me of how in the Dail, visitors in the gallery get a vote. Tell me how it's fair that one person should be able to outvote the representative of hundreds or thousands of people. Go on. I'd love to hear that convolution of logic!

vlmaxis

I have to go, work to be done.

jaycee

Just on another note, The above is true until a member of a club or team who has been banned from MNSCI in the past, cannot shoot F class unless it is held on a different range, and we know there is no other range at this time,
therefor an individual or team will be penalized by the NRAI for an incident that happened in an other club, by not allowing him/her to shoot because they are told so by a club that is, as you say, not an NGB,.
This is not hearsay, this is fact, it has happened.

So ..were back to the banned member issue ,This has been covered in the past . Any club in the country have the right to ban any member if he /she breaks the rules. To kinda quote youself.. "WE live in a democracy," and thats how it works. If a person were banned from any club , naturally they would lose all and any privileges that being a member of that club involved.

I don't see any logic here either ,

therefor an individual or team will be penalized by the NRAI for an incident that happened in an other club

If a person was guilty of an incident in any club , isn't it most likely he won't be on their shooting team anyway .. and therefore the situation can't arise.

unless it is held on a different range, and we know there is no other range at this time

What..!
So now it's MNSCI and the NRAI's fault that they'r are no other ranges ..?
I hear Ballykinler is a grand place to shoot , Oh hang on.. are you saying that it dosen't count because that's not in the Republic.
Gosh.. that reminds me of something I read here a while ago..

As for the ranges in Ireland we are always welcome in Ballykinler (fullbore range)

So now , being in the ROI matter's, apparently...

I always thought it did, just that others seemed to disagree about that .

Leupold

Sparks wrote:

That would be the earlier posts stating that the NRPAI supported the LRRAI as the NGB, and your posts stating that the NRAI can't remain as the NGB.
?

What gibberish sparks. You are saying that statements made by person (A) which mention person(B) can be interpreted to mean that person (B) made the statement, Come on, this is really silly even by your usual standard of logic.

Sparks

Leupold, I refer you to the earlier comment I made on this point to you:

you contend then that the LRRAI is not supported by the NRPAI? How would you know this without being a member of either body?

So, are you a member of the NRPAI or the LRRAI committees? And please - no ducking out on the NRPAI issue by claiming it's now the SSAI, or I'll scan in the part of the NRPAI constitution that shows that that's not a supportable claim. And frankly, as that would be so off-topic, I'll wind up starting a new thread and moving posts about as a result.

Leupold

Sparks wrote:

Actually, Leupold, your eighty-odd posts in here have had one underlying agenda - to promote the LRRAI. Anyone can search through them and see for themselves.

Anyone who reads through my posts will see that my emphasis has been on unifying the sport and getting away from the negative, destructive propaganda designed to continue the rows you so love to involve yourself in .

Sparks wrote:

See above. We've argued this already.

My my, the great sparks running away from an argument!

Sparks wrote:

Since the moment someone deliberately manufactured the problem for their own personal gain.

Now who is making libellous statements without any evidence? It is a pity you stated in a later post that you were writing off to ascertain the facts, yet here you are a day earlier making a clear accusation as if you knew the facts. What a slip up!

Sparks wrote:

It's obvious you don't have scientific training. Regardless of the long-term rise, the short-term effects of the split will be obvious in the figures.

Do I really have to teach you basic stats sparks? If the underlying rise in interest was of the same size as the drop off in attendance from some F class shooters, then the attendance figures will be static, hence without knowing the effect of the underlying variable you cannot tell the effect of any other variables. As we do not have any figures this part of out little chat is a waste of time.

Sparks wrote:

It did - that does not mean that the original poster spoke for the NRAI.

The e-mails referred to by the poster are over the following name--
National Rifle Association of the Republic of Ireland committee.
David Comerford ( CHAIRMAN )

Sparks wrote:

Ah, so you contend then that the LRRAI is not supported by the NRPAI? How would you know this without being a member of either body?

I love the way you slip in the odd non sequitor hoping no one will notice.
I did not contend anything. I pointed out that you were contending something,i.e you implied that statements made by a poster about the SSAI were the same as statements made by the SSAI itself.

Sparks wrote:

The correct title is the NRPAI and I can prove that if you so wish. In a manner that would be upheld by a court if it came to it. It's an inconvienent truth that most NRPAI officers wish would go away, but it's the truth nonetheless.

So what Sparks. Do you think anyone other than yourself cares about this?

Sparks wrote:

And now you're making implications that there is financial misconduct afoot. I'd correct or clarify that, were I you, it's grounds for a libel suit against you and boards.ie for the NRAI and MNSCI officials.

Now this as the high point of the note Sparks, Another non sequitor which demonstates you doing the very thing you accuse me of. I said and I quote "This argument must have rattled you. You have forgotten that the issue with the NRARI/MNSCI crossover is that of potential commercial interest"
You are the one who used the words "financial misconduct afoot" which I certainly did not say or imply.This is a very good example of your method of arguing your case.

In summary, this thread has become too convoluted and boring for all concerned. It has become another Sparks versus the world. This forum could be a wonderful way of circulating information and publicizing the sport in general but your major achievement is to turn it into a tool of division. Most regular readers of the forum will know that the only possible motivation for you to post so regularly , apart from your evident bias against the SSAI . is that you seem to like the attention. If it was not for the fact that many readers of the forum have no other source of information about the wider world of shooting in Ireland no one would post to feed your desire for visibility. Unfortunately, as much of what you say is so wrong or heavily biased, people feel it a duty to put the record straight. We should know better and leave you to wither on the vine.

Sparks

Leupold wrote:

Anyone who reads through my posts will see that my emphasis has been on unifying the sport

Actually, anyone who reads all your posts will find a clear pro-LRRAI, anti-NRAI agenda - literally, you have almost no other posts in the entire time you've been here - expressed with an amount of spin that would make most people laugh. You've claimed that the NRAI is arrogant, you've taken posters in here as posting for them even after they specifically state they're not, you make arguements based on posters' spelling or other ad hominem approaches, you engage in a variety of logic that seems entirely predicated on the assumption that you are infalliable, you flip-flop between saying that the shooters are the important ones to saying that the associations have to be the ones to decide things, and you only take time out to damn plinkers and shooters who shoot at silhouette and reactive targets!

That's rather a long way from unifying the sport!

My my, the great sparks running away from an argument!

Dissemble all you want Leupold, but I notice you didn't answer the question.

Now who is making libellous statements without any evidence?

Nobody. Look up the definition of libel, would you?

Do I really have to teach you basic stats sparks?

Nope. It seems I have to relate some basic common sense to you though. The liklihood of two wholly unrelated phenonoma (namely, the rise in membership due to the relaxed licencing conditions, and the drop in membership due to the NRAI/LRRAI dispute) being so perfectly matched as to cancel each other out is so low as to be negligible because these two phenonoma affect wholly seperate populations - the first only affects those who don't shoot fullbore yet and the latter only affects those who already do.

As we do not have any figures

In other words, you'll happily claim that the NRAI being seperate and autonomous is a negative thing for fullbore shooting, but you have absolutely no facts or figures to back that up. So, exactly why should you be listened to then? Without facts or figures, I could equally claim that the lesser spotted woodpecker's declining numbers are damaging to target shooting in Ireland!

The e-mails referred to by the poster

Indeed. That doesn't prove that the original poster is Mr.Comerford, nor that the original poster speaks for the NRAI. It just proves that someone (not even necessarily a someone within the NRAI) got a copy of that email and posted it here.

I did not contend anything. I pointed out that you were contending something

On the contrary. You were making assertions in this thread that the NRPAI had not gone to the international body or supported such approaches, nor that they supported the LRRAI. Since no public statement on the matter has been made yet by the NRPAI, how could you know this to be true?

So what Sparks. Do you think anyone other than yourself cares about this?

Yes. And more importantly, it raises the question we raised earlier. Why join the NRPAI at all? What benefit is there to it? And more relevant to those bodies already in it and considering leaving it, how can a body that won't even follow its own constitutional rules be trusted to act in anyone's best interests?

You are the one who used the words "financial misconduct afoot" which I certainly did not say or imply.

You certainly did imply it, and have done so in many posts, by stating that the MNSCI are not a seperate body from the NRAI and thus a conflict existed. I remind you of the definition of implication, Leupold, and also that lawyers have a wonderous book called a dictionary.

this thread has become too convoluted and boring for all concerned.

In other words, you've got no logical argument, no facts, no figures, and a clear agenda supporting the LRRAI against the NRAI, and you hope that people won't read the thread so that they won't see the holes in your argument or the agenda behind it.

Kye

I love the shooting boards, its like a serial everyday there is a new twist. The soap writers could find inspiration here, even when a glimpse of hope shows someone rows in with more tragedy:

"Life's but a walking shadow; a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

Enough of the shakespeare.

How about something positive?

"perchance to dream"

Sparks

How about something positive?

Well, the NRAI's sending a team to Bisley on July 20 for the Imperial match, that's a positive thing, right? The F-Class League has concluded, results are here.
I'd post about the upcoming ISSF World Championships and the Irish Team (made up completely from Wilkinstown shooters), but I'd only trigger a query from Leupold or someone else on whether or not the NTSA and Wilkinstown are sufficently seperate for the NTSA to constitute an NGB...

Leupold

Leupold wrote:

In summary, this thread has become too convoluted and boring for all concerned. It has become another Sparks versus the world. This forum could be a wonderful way of circulating information and publicizing the sport in general but your major achievement is to turn it into a tool of division. Most regular readers of the forum will know that the only possible motivation for you to post so regularly , apart from your evident bias against the SSAI . is that you seem to like the attention. If it was not for the fact that many readers of the forum have no other source of information about the wider world of shooting in Ireland no one would post to feed your desire for visibility. Unfortunately, as much of what you say is so wrong or heavily biased, people feel it a duty to put the record straight. We should know better and leave you to wither on the vine.

I have finished with this thread as you seem to be losing the run of yourself but you forgot to critique the rest of the last paragraph. I thought it would be nice to put it up again in case you missed it.

Sparks

Wander away as far as you like Leupold, I see no reason to entertain ad hominem arguments when the fact remains that you have neither logic nor facts on your side, and all can see that you have a very strong pro-LRRAI bias. I also notice that you still haven't said if you're in either the NRPAI or LRRAI committees.

Leupold

Sparks wrote:

Actually, anyone who reads all your posts will find a clear pro-LRRAI, anti-NRAI agenda - literally, you have almost no other posts in the entire time you've been here - expressed with an amount of spin that would make most people laugh. You've claimed that the NRAI is arrogant, you've taken posters in here as posting for them even after they specifically state they're not, you make arguements based on posters' spelling or other ad hominem approaches, you engage in a variety of logic that seems entirely predicated on the assumption that you are infalliable, you flip-flop between saying that the shooters are the important ones to saying that the associations have to be the ones to decide things, and you only take time out to damn plinkers and shooters who shoot at silhouette and reactive targets!

To finally close down this thread, your statements above are nothing other than ad hominem arguments(therefore you are a hypocrite) and I am not a member of either the LRRAI or SSAI(formerly NRPAI) committees. Clearly you are rattled.

Leupold

Bye for now Sparks. See you again when my dislike of your crude propoganda overcomes my unwillingness to give you more visibility.

DDLR

LoL Bye! Please dont hurry back

micah

thank goodness for a voice of reason - feel free to return at anytime leupold.:)

Sparks

micah (aka mifyah1, aka ogam, aka waggawagga), those accounts are banned. Ogam's account is to be unbanned in a week following his earlier ban for being highly uncivil.

Sparks

And for Leupold's (and others) reading pleasure, an email from the NRPAI on the LRRAI/NRPAI link:

I can confirm the LRRAI are not a federated member of the SSAI. The LRRAI have requested a meeting to make a presentation to the SSAI at which they intend to present their aims and objectives. The SSAI committee will then review that proposal and seek a solution that will best suit the interests of shooters.

Sparks

I'll also highlight for the sake of people knowing who's arguing for what, that appauled and notsurprised, are in fact sock puppets for LRPC 2003, the Leinster Rifle and Pistol Club. Given that the LRPC is currently fundraising for the NRPAI, I think that raises some interesting questions.

Sparks

Leupold wrote:

To finally close down this thread, your statements above are nothing other than ad hominem arguments(therefore you are a hypocrite)

*sigh*
An ad hominem argument, Leupold, is when you play the man, not the ball.
Since those comments you quoted are not about the issue being discussed here, they're not ad hominem.

Clearly you are rattled.

Perplexed by your agenda, certainly. But why would I be rattled when you are so clearly in the wrong, and everyone else can see it?

Sparks

Kye wrote:

I love the shooting boards, its like a serial everyday there is a new twist.

You know, I've been thinking about this for a few days. It's sad, but you're wrong in one aspect Kye - there aren't any really new twists. It's the same old problems from the same old people, day in, day out. The people haven't changed in the past decade, and the problem's causes haven't changed either. They have become more obvious though, and it boils down, in the end, to this:

The NRPAI, NTSA, NASRC, NSAI, Pony Club, IPSA, NRAI, LRRAI and all the other associations need to always keep in mind two things:
1. They exist to serve shooters.
2. The goal is to promote the sport.

Every time that gets forgotten, something goes horribly awry and there is always an argument as a result. Always. It has always been that way, from long before I was born, and I suspect it'll continue in that vein long after we all shuffle off this mortal coil. Take this NRAI/LRRAI dispute for example. Why are the LRRAI members fighting to take over from the NRAI when the NRAI has international recognition? Why not simply affiliate to them and, that done, concentrate on the shooting? In many ways, this dispute is like a couple of old shooters in the pub arguing for weeks over whether or not Eley makes better ammo than Lapua. If they just went and batch tested, they could solve the question in a month and then spend their time working on the actual shooting itself!

And to forestall Leupold and his ilk, who will say that our arguing on this in here is exactly what I'm saying is a bad thing, I'll say this - don't be prats. For once, don't put your egos first. People are always going to talk about the decisions made in shooting admin when they're affected by them, always. That won't stop if I take a vow of silence, it won't stop if boards.ie was shut down, it won't stop if the Irish Shooters Digest ceases to print reader's letters, it won't stop until there's only one person left in Ireland who shoots! And then he'll be talking to himself anyway! So accept that people will talk, and actually be open about what you do for once, and listen to your shooters. You might find the complaints stop pretty fast when people are listened to...

LRPC 2003

Sparks wrote:

I'll also highlight for the sake of people knowing who's arguing for what, that appauled and notsurprised, are in fact sock puppets for LRPC 2003, the Leinster Rifle and Pistol Club. Given that the LRPC is currently fundraising for the NRPAI, I think that raises some interesting questions.

Sparks , as per usual you have out done yourself with a completely incorrect statement .

Firstly , The " Sock Puppets " as you call them , Appauled and Not surprised , one and the same person as I understand , are not sign ins for LRPC 2003 , but , the funny thing is that they were set up from LRPC's IP address which is a club laptop available to a number of members . In no instance has he made statements , either for me or LRPC as a club ,and only stated his feelings toward the statement published on this board by the NRAI , which he is fully entitled to do. As for Me , if I do require to put something on Boards .ie , I will do so myself .

Secondly , As usual you get your gripe in about the NRPAI , which by the way is now called the SSAI , whether you like it or not . You have stated that LRPC as a club is fundraising for the SSAI , I dont know where you have got this idea from as we are not . We are however holding a shoot in aid of FLAG which is a totally seperate organisation to the SSAI , but which you also have a gripe with , seeing a definite pattern here :rolleyes:

Given that you didnt bother to check with me , to see about these other log ins from our club computer , but decided in your infinite wisdom :rolleyes: to post this comment about LRPC that is absolutely incorrect , I have been instructed to give you an opportunity to retract your statement .

I await your reply ,

Rod Wilson

Chairman
LRPC

jaycee

Firstly , The " Sock Puppets " as you call them , Appauled and Not surprised , one and the same person as I understand , are not sign ins for LRPC 2003 , but , the funny thing is that they were set up from LRPC's IP address which is a club laptop available to a number of members . In no instance has he made statements , either for me or LRPC as a club ,and only stated his feelings toward the statement published on this board by the NRAI , which he is fully entitled to do. As for Me , if I do require to put something on Boards .ie , I will do so myself .

Hi Rod ,

In all honesty .. I'm not looking to create an argument , just looking for clarification of the highlighted piece above.

Are you saying of the person referred to ,that his statements were without your prior knowledge or consent ...?

I fully support any individual in expressing his /her opinion as long as it is done in an open and truthful manner and that any accusations made be backed up by evidence to support them.

LRPC 2003

jaycee wrote:

Hi Rod ,

In all honesty .. I'm not looking to create an argument , just looking for clarification of the highlighted piece above.

Are you saying of the person referred to ,that his statements were without your prior knowledge or consent ...?

I fully support any individual in expressing his /her opinion as long as it is done in an open and truthful manner and that any accusations made be backed up by evidence to support them.

Jaycee,

I dont know who you are ,perhaps you can tell us , but you can see that I dont need to hide my identity , If I want to make statements here , I will do so , and people will know who I am. If I need to make announcements on behalf of LRPC club , likewise , I will do so , however , unless LRPC or Rod Wilson is named in anything that is posted on Boards .ie under the sign in of LRPC 2003 , I will not be responsible for them .

Rod Wilson.

jaycee

Hi Rod,

long ago I told everyone who I am , so I have no problem with that.
I have often urged people to reveal their name because I can't abide the all to common practice of making slanderous statements while hiding behind a assumed name.
My name is Joe Costello and I am known to several readers of boards.

So...to revisit my question, which was :

Originally Posted by jaycee


Are you saying of the person referred to ,that his statements were without your prior knowledge or consent ...?

Your answer :

unless LRPC or Rod Wilson is named in anything that is posted on Boards .ie under the sign in of LRPC 2003 , I will not be responsible for them .

Fair enough .. I presume I can take that as a yes.

Sparks

LRPC 2003 wrote:

Firstly , The " Sock Puppets " as you call them , Appauled and Not surprised , one and the same person as I understand , are not sign ins for LRPC 2003 , but , the funny thing is that they were set up from LRPC's IP address which is a club laptop available to a number of members.

So they do not speak for you, but speak through a facility you provide. Very well, I can accept this and withdraw the comment that these accounts and yours are the same. However; unless you care to take more care regarding the security of the login details of the LRPC 2003 account, how can we know that this is Rod Wilson posting on behalf of the LRPC, or just any old chap who wanders in, sits down and the club machine and notes that the last person to post in here left themselves logged in by mistake?

the NRPAI , which by the way is now called the SSAI , whether you like it or not.

Again, as I've said before, that wouldn't hold up in court. The NRPAI is the NRPAI, until such time as they hold a properly run AGM at which the NRPAI constitution is adhered to. It's inconvienent, I realise, but it's not a problem of my making.

You have stated that LRPC as a club is fundraising for the SSAI , I dont know where you have got this idea from as we are not . We are however holding a shoot in aid of FLAG which is a totally seperate organisation to the SSAI

Sorry Rod, you've been misinformed. FLAG is not a seperate body from the NRPAI, but was set up under the auspices of the NRPAI and speaks for them to the DoJ and Gardai. I clarified this point with Declan in the past. As such, it is tied to them irrevokably. Otherwise, why would they have any authority to speak to the DoJ for shooters, when no shooter has a vote on who is on the FLAG committee, no shooter has a say in their policies, and they answer to no shooter outside the NRPAI committee?
You are fundraising for the NRPAI Rod, like it or not.

LRPC 2003

Sparks wrote:

So they do not speak for you, but speak through a facility you provide. Very well, I can accept this and withdraw the comment that these accounts and yours are the same. However; unless you care to take more care regarding the security of the login details of the LRPC 2003 account, how can we know that this is Rod Wilson posting on behalf of the LRPC, or just any old chap who wanders in, sits down and the club machine and notes that the last person to post in here left themselves logged in by mistake?

Sparks , there you go again . If they were logged in as LRPC 2003 I would accept your answer , but the fact is that they were logged in as their own seperate account , therefore ,they have no access to the LRPC login or password and it is obvious that they were not Me or LRPC. Just because the IP address is the same , it doesnt mean that the computer is not available to other users , and I would therefore advise you that IP addresses only identify the Computer , not the users .

Sparks wrote:

Again, as I've said before, that wouldn't hold up in court. The NRPAI is the NRPAI, until such time as they hold a properly run AGM at which the NRPAI constitution is adhered to. It's inconvienent, I realise, but it's not a problem of my making.

Same old rant Sparks, were all tired of it at this stage , get over it !

Sparks wrote:

Sorry Rod, you've been misinformed. FLAG is not a seperate body from the NRPAI, but was set up under the auspices of the NRPAI and speaks for them to the DoJ and Gardai. I clarified this point with Declan in the past. As such, it is tied to them irrevokably. Otherwise, why would they have any authority to speak to the DoJ for shooters, when no shooter has a vote on who is on the FLAG committee, no shooter has a say in their policies, and they answer to no shooter outside the NRPAI committee?
You are fundraising for the NRPAI Rod, like it or not.

I dont have a problem with either the SSAI or FLAG , the money raised will go to Shooting Sports through either organisation , and I and LRPC are happy to support both of these organisations and any others that will do good for the sport in general .

Rod Wilson

Sparks

LRPC 2003 wrote:

Sparks , there you go again . If they were logged in as LRPC 2003 I would accept your answer , but the fact is that they were logged in as their own seperate account , therefore ,they have no access to the LRPC login or password and it is obvious that they were not Me or LRPC.

Sorry Rod, but that makes no sense at all. When you log into boards, the website stores a cookie on your PC. The next person who uses that machine, unless you actually log out first, could post in your name and we wouldn't know the difference. That's not an observation that had anything to do with the LRPC/notsurprised/appauled username link, by the way, it's just a general one.

Just because the IP address is the same , it doesnt mean that the computer is not available to other users , and I would therefore advise you that IP addresses only identify the Computer , not the users .

Indeed. And yet, based on postings here, we've already seen legal threats against individuals.

Same old rant Sparks, were all tired of it at this stage , get over it !

You can dismiss it all you wish Rod, but you and I both know that in the end, I'm correct on this. It's easily fixable - it's just that it hasn't been done yet, and that shows a contempt on the part of the NRPAI for it's own rules and members that's troubling. Why you claim noone else is troubled by it, I don't know.

I dont have a problem with either the SSAI or FLAG , the money raised will go to Shooting Sports through either organisation , and I and LRPC are happy to support both of these organisations and any others that will do good for the sport in general .

Then support them and be glad. Just know who the money's going to. And what it's going to be used for.