NRARI, Announcement

vlmaxis

jaycee wrote:

What about visiting international teams shooting f-class.. ,

Hang on a second , first of all people are saying ....

1: I am not speaking for other people

2: I asked a question

Would I be right in saying, that unless you are an international visitor or a guest of a member of MNSCI, then you will have pay €300 to shoot F class?.

vlmaxis

[

Strange that anyones even talking about the place anymore, It's obviously very unpopular, unfriendly , does everything wrong and it's expensive too.

Since I can't figure that one out I guess I'll just pay my membership fee again and go shooting for another year. Silly me.

I'd happily pay double the cost for the facilitys on offer.

[/QUOTE]

I must be as silly as you because I too will pay my membership again this year, but that is not what this is about, this is about finding an NGB for Fullbore rifle shooters.
I am well aware of the quality of the MNSCI facility, and will remain there as long as i am shooting (please god and Jim Griffen), the problem as I see it is that the MNSCI should affiliate to an Irish NGB and if they dont like the way that NGB is run, then they would have the power to vote them out at an AGM, as it stands the MNSCI have no power to say anything,pity, because I would love to see harmony on that range and see many of the good shooters turn up on the weekends.

DDLR

Sparks wrote:

I'm sure some will say so. It does distract others from criticising wrong behaviour quite effectively. Of course, it wouldn't matter who was posting the criticism - ad hominem attacks ("you just hate the NRPAI", "your ego needs assuaging", "my da can beat up your da") would follow...

I agree man,

jaycee

vlmaxis wrote:

jaycee wrote:

What about visiting international teams shooting f-class.. ,

1: I am not speaking for other people

2: I asked a question

Would I be right in saying, that unless you are an international visitor or a guest of a member of MNSCI, then you will have pay €300 to shoot F class?.

You added the "International " bit the second time you asked the question.

TBH ...I'm not sure what you mean ..

By "Shooting F-Class" .. do you mean..

A : Practicing with centerfire rifle on the full bore ranges
B : Shooting in a Club Benchrest Competition
C : Shooting in an Club F-Class competition .
D : Shooting in an F-Class Open Shoot .

Sparks

vlmaxis wrote:

the problem as I see it is that the MNSCI should affiliate to an Irish NGB

Aren't they already affiliated to the NRAI?

vlmaxis

cial NGB.

Which would imply, by the way, that someone else has been recognised as such - which leads to two questions.
1. Who was recognised and on what grounds?
2. Who was the party qualified to recognise them?

Who was the party Qualified to recognise NARI?,
no Irish body recognised them.
I don't recognise them as an Irish NGB when they wont affiliate to any Irish NGB.

Will someone answer my Questions and stop trying to avoid the question.

vlmaxis

jaycee wrote:

vlmaxis wrote:

You added the "International " bit the second time you asked the question.

TBH ...I'm not sure what you mean ..

By "Shooting F-Class" .. do you mean..

A : Practicing with centerfire rifle on the full bore ranges
B : Shooting in a Club Benchrest Competition
C : Shooting in an Club F-Class competition .
D : Shooting in an F-Class Open Shoot .

What I mean is, if I want to qualify for the Irish team, but you still have not answered my question.

jaycee

Well .. we're trying to,

You've been asked a couple of questions , not to avoid answering you, but just to try and make it clear what it is you need to know.

Anyway's .. today's Friday , So I presume you will be shooting over the weekend sometime . Why not ask the guys when you get to the range.

Or.. If you can't make it down to shoot . Just ring them.

Sparks

vlmaxis wrote:

Who was the party Qualified to recognise NARI?,

Within Ireland? The active shooters as I understand the history. There was no NGB; it was felt one was needed; a body was set up as the acting NGB and accepted by the shooters; they then gained international recognition. Same way that every other sporting NGB in the history of sporting NGBs was set up.

no Irish body recognised them.

Why would any Irish body have to recognise them? That's akin to the NRPAI recognising that the NTSA is the NGB for the ISSF shooting sports (as in, it's meaningless - the NRPAI has no authority over the NTSA, nor is it recognised by the ISSF as being able to designate who the NGB is, and the NTSA is already recognised as the ISSF NGB by ISSF. NRPAI recognition would be meaningless).

Besides, what Irish body had the authority over the sport to recognise them?

Seriously, there's an unrealised underlying assumption in that question vlmaxis.

I don't recognise them as an Irish NGB when they wont affiliate to any Irish NGB.

How can an NGB only be an NGB if they affiliate to an NGB?

Will someone answer my Questions and stop trying to avoid the question.

Phrase the question in a clearer fashion - it's not exactly clear what you're asking. I mean, you started asking

Would I be right in saying, that unless you are an international visitor or a guest of a member of MNSCI, then you will have pay €300 to shoot F class?

And then said:

What I mean is, if I want to qualify for the Irish team

So your question really was, will the MNSCI let you shoot as a part of the Irish National Team for €300. And I think we've already had a thread on that point and the answer was no, but if you made it onto the National Team, you'd be paying that much in expenses. Which is the same deal as with most other forms of competitive shooting - few NGBs cover 100% of the costs their teams fact in international competition. Besides which, the MNSCI is not the NGB - so the decision of who's on the team belongs to the NRAI, not the MNSCI.

vlmaxis

No disrespect Jaycee, but when I go to MNSCI, I go to unwind and enjoy my sport, not get into a political argument and I will not ring anyone to get into an argument either.
I am going to stop writing on this thread because we are flogging a dead horse, and it seems I don't have to retract my question.

jaycee

I go to unwind and enjoy my sport, not get into a political argument and I will not ring anyone to get into an argument either.

Me too,

What argument could you possibly get into for clarifying any of those points

The reason I suggested contacting the range directly was that it's
around the renewal time and ther may be fee changes and the like .
I'm not involved of the running of things so I wouldn't know

Therefore , I thought it was a perfectly rational suggestion since you would be in contact with them anyway.. Oh well !

vlmaxis

And then said:

So your question really was, will the MNSCI let you shoot as a part of the Irish National Team for €300. And I think we've already had a thread on that point and the answer was no, but if you made it onto the National Team, you'd be paying that much in expenses. Which is the same deal as with most other forms of competitive shooting - few NGBs cover 100% of the costs their teams fact in international competition. Besides which, the MNSCI is not the NGB - so the decision of who's on the team belongs to the NRAI, not the MNSCI.

[/QUOTE]

I know I said I was not writing on this anymore but I had not seen Sparks reply.
Sparks, you are an educated man, so stop twisting things and reading things wrong just so you can try to win an argument, you know that is not the question I asked, the question I asked was very simple, but it is not being answered.
Look the NRAI is not the NGB for fullbore shooting in Ireland, and anyone who thinks they are is entitled to believe so.
I say it again There is no fullbore NGB in Ireland at this time, and when there is I will be one of the first shooters to join them, but that will be on the bases that they are recognized by all Irish and International NGBs, and that all Irish shooters will have a chance to vote them in.

Sparks

the NRAI is not the NGB for fullbore shooting in Ireland

Depends on who you ask. Frankly, I'd go with the international body. Recognition by the Sports Council and other Irish administrative bodies would be meaningless in this context.

that will be on the bases that they are recognized by all Irish and International NGBs, and that all Irish shooters will have a chance to vote them in.

The problem with this is twofold;
1) There is no Irish body which can designate or recognise a fullbore NGB. The NRPAI may claim to recognise one body or another, but that's meaningless because they have no authority to do so. And as to International recognition, that was already given and then sabotaged. The fact that it could be sabotaged is not sufficient reason to say that the NRAI is not an NGB.

2) Shooters have never been given a vote in whether or not any shooting body is an NGB. Why would it start now?

vlmaxis

[

The problem with this is twofold;
1) There is no Irish body which can designate or recognise a fullbore NGB. The NRPAI may claim to recognise one body or another, but that's meaningless because they have no authority to do so. And as to International recognition, that was already given and then sabotaged. The fact that it could be sabotaged is not sufficient reason to say that the NRAI is not an NGB.

You use a strong word (sabotage), I don't believe that there was sabotage, I believe that the majority of fullbore shooters wanted to have a choice.

2) Shooters have never been given a vote in whether or not any shooting body is an NGB. Why would it start now?

[/QUOTE]

maybe that's the problem, you would not like to see a political party getting into government without having a say, would You?, Why shouldn't it start now?, surely we are all entitled to a vote?.

Sparks

vlmaxis wrote:

You use a strong word (sabotage)

I did. Going to an international body to discredit a national body is a thing that deserves strong words.

I don't believe that there was sabotage, I believe that the majority of fullbore shooters wanted to have a choice.

So you know what happened then?

maybe that's the problem

I'd say that it might well be one of the problems with administration in shooting in general.

Why shouldn't it start now?

Because then only the NRAI would be subject to a vote. The NRPAI, NTSA, NSAI, NASRC, ICPSA, Pony club, IPSA and LRRAI would all have to go through the same procedure if it was to be fair.

surely we are all entitled to a vote?.

Are we? I don't shoot F-class, should I get a vote? I wouldn't think so. But how do you come up with the list of people who are allowed to vote in any kind of fair manner?

Do you take those who own the gear? Then what about club shooters who don't own their own gear yet?

Do you take those who turn up on the day? Are you nuts?

Do you take those who compete? But what of those who have no interest in competition?

Do you take those who run clubs? But what about the shooters?

Saying we're all entitled to a vote is a strong emotional argument, yes. But frankly, it's not always correct or fair. For example, witness the 2004 NRPAI AGM. Someone asks if the floor should have a vote. The answer "of course we should" was the wrong answer here, because it means that a bunch of people who turn up get a vote which outweighs the legitimate representatives of far more people who didn't turn up.

vlmaxis

Besides which, the MNSCI is not the NGB - so the decision of who's on the team belongs to the NRAI, not the MNSCI.

[/QUOTE]

Just on another note, The above is true until a member of a club or team who has been banned from MNSCI in the past, cannot shoot F class unless it is held on a different range, and we know there is no other range at this time,
therefor an individual or team will be penalized by the NRAI for an incident that happened in an other club, by not allowing him/her to shoot because they are told so by a club that is, as you say, not an NGB,.
This is not hearsay, this is fact, it has happened.

vlmaxis

QUOTE=Sparks]I did. Going to an international body to discredit a national body is a thing that deserves strong words.
[

They were not the NGB.
Furthermore who went to who? fact only please, not supposition.

Saying we're all entitled to a vote is a strong emotional argument, yes. But frankly, it's not always correct or fair. For example, witness the 2004 NRPAI AGM. Someone asks if the floor should have a vote. The answer "of course we should" was the wrong answer here, because it means that a bunch of people who turn up get a vote which outweighs the legitimate representatives of far more people who didn't turn up.

[/QUOTE]


WE live in a democracy, if you don't turn up to vote, you loose!.

Sparks

vlmaxis wrote:

Just on another note, The above is true until a member of a club or team who has been banned from MNSCI in the past, cannot shoot F class unless it is held on a different range, and we know there is no other range at this time,

But as I understand it, there has only been one person banned from the MNSCI range, and that was over safety issues, and that person was given a hearing and due process.
That's hardly a despotic way to run things - in fact if things were not run that way, I'd be worried. Safety on a range must always be paramount.

This is not hearsay, this is fact, it has happened.

Whom to?

Sparks

vlmaxis wrote:

They were not the NGB.

Says whom?

Furthermore who went to who? fact only please, not supposition.

I don't know who went to whom, so I wrote off to find out. I'll post any reply I get. In the meantime, perhaps you would post what facts you have on the matter. You've already said that you believe the majority of shooters wanted a choice, therefore either you've asked all the shooters yourself or you've seen the results of such a poll. Could you post that here please?
You've also said you don't believe there was sabotage, therefore you must know more than has been posted here. Could you post what you know here please?

WE live in a democracy, if you don't turn up to vote, you loose!.

Actually, that's highly misleading and inaccurate. What happened at the NRPAI AGM was exactly the same as if the visitors in the Dail visitors gallery were given a vote in Dail Eireann because they happened to be there on the day, even though the rules strictly said they had no vote.

vlmaxis

[

QUOTE=Sparks]But as I understand it, there has only been one person banned from the MNSCI range, and that was over safety issues, and that person was given a hearing and due process.
That's hardly a despotic way to run things - in fact if things were not run that way, I'd be worried. Safety on a range must always be paramount.


Whom to?

[/QUOTE]

If there was only one person banned, then you can answer this yourself, I am not posting peoples names.

vlmaxis

Sparks wrote:

Says whom?

Who says they are?

I don't know who went to whom, so I wrote off to find out. I'll post any reply I get. In the meantime, perhaps you would post what facts you have on the matter. You've already said that you believe the majority of shooters wanted a choice, therefore either you've asked all the shooters yourself or you've seen the results of such a poll. Could you post that here please?
You've also said you don't believe there was sabotage, therefore you must know more than has been posted here. Could you post what you know here please?

The facts speak for themselves.

Actually, that's highly misleading and inaccurate

.

That we live in a democrocy and if you don't vote you have no say?, I can't believe you said the above.

Sparks

vlmaxis wrote:

If there was only one person banned, then you can answer this your self, I am not posting peoples names.

So you're confirming then that we're talking about the same person? In other words, you're complaining that the NRAI has no right to be an NGB because one person (who was barred from a range following due process and a formal hearing on safety grounds) couldn't train on the MNSCI range and thus couldn't make it into an Irish Team? Even though this person is actually a member of the LRRAI committee and lives closer to a fullbore range in another country than he does to the MNSCI range?

Does that not sound like a wee bit of a stretch to you vlmaxis?

Sparks

vlmaxis wrote:

Who says they are?

The shooters in them and the international body.

The facts speak for themselves.

In other words, you haven't a clue.

That we live in a democrocy and if you don't vote you have no say?, I can't believe you said that.

I can't believe you even think that that's an argument! Go on then vlm, tell me of how in the Dail, visitors in the gallery get a vote. Tell me how it's fair that one person should be able to outvote the representative of hundreds or thousands of people. Go on. I'd love to hear that convolution of logic!

vlmaxis

I have to go, work to be done.

jaycee

Just on another note, The above is true until a member of a club or team who has been banned from MNSCI in the past, cannot shoot F class unless it is held on a different range, and we know there is no other range at this time,
therefor an individual or team will be penalized by the NRAI for an incident that happened in an other club, by not allowing him/her to shoot because they are told so by a club that is, as you say, not an NGB,.
This is not hearsay, this is fact, it has happened.

So ..were back to the banned member issue ,This has been covered in the past . Any club in the country have the right to ban any member if he /she breaks the rules. To kinda quote youself.. "WE live in a democracy," and thats how it works. If a person were banned from any club , naturally they would lose all and any privileges that being a member of that club involved.

I don't see any logic here either ,

therefor an individual or team will be penalized by the NRAI for an incident that happened in an other club

If a person was guilty of an incident in any club , isn't it most likely he won't be on their shooting team anyway .. and therefore the situation can't arise.

unless it is held on a different range, and we know there is no other range at this time

What..!
So now it's MNSCI and the NRAI's fault that they'r are no other ranges ..?
I hear Ballykinler is a grand place to shoot , Oh hang on.. are you saying that it dosen't count because that's not in the Republic.
Gosh.. that reminds me of something I read here a while ago..

As for the ranges in Ireland we are always welcome in Ballykinler (fullbore range)

So now , being in the ROI matter's, apparently...

I always thought it did, just that others seemed to disagree about that .

Leupold

Sparks wrote:

That would be the earlier posts stating that the NRPAI supported the LRRAI as the NGB, and your posts stating that the NRAI can't remain as the NGB.
?

What gibberish sparks. You are saying that statements made by person (A) which mention person(B) can be interpreted to mean that person (B) made the statement, Come on, this is really silly even by your usual standard of logic.

Sparks

Leupold, I refer you to the earlier comment I made on this point to you:

you contend then that the LRRAI is not supported by the NRPAI? How would you know this without being a member of either body?

So, are you a member of the NRPAI or the LRRAI committees? And please - no ducking out on the NRPAI issue by claiming it's now the SSAI, or I'll scan in the part of the NRPAI constitution that shows that that's not a supportable claim. And frankly, as that would be so off-topic, I'll wind up starting a new thread and moving posts about as a result.

Leupold

Sparks wrote:

Actually, Leupold, your eighty-odd posts in here have had one underlying agenda - to promote the LRRAI. Anyone can search through them and see for themselves.

Anyone who reads through my posts will see that my emphasis has been on unifying the sport and getting away from the negative, destructive propaganda designed to continue the rows you so love to involve yourself in .

Sparks wrote:

See above. We've argued this already.

My my, the great sparks running away from an argument!

Sparks wrote:

Since the moment someone deliberately manufactured the problem for their own personal gain.

Now who is making libellous statements without any evidence? It is a pity you stated in a later post that you were writing off to ascertain the facts, yet here you are a day earlier making a clear accusation as if you knew the facts. What a slip up!

Sparks wrote:

It's obvious you don't have scientific training. Regardless of the long-term rise, the short-term effects of the split will be obvious in the figures.

Do I really have to teach you basic stats sparks? If the underlying rise in interest was of the same size as the drop off in attendance from some F class shooters, then the attendance figures will be static, hence without knowing the effect of the underlying variable you cannot tell the effect of any other variables. As we do not have any figures this part of out little chat is a waste of time.

Sparks wrote:

It did - that does not mean that the original poster spoke for the NRAI.

The e-mails referred to by the poster are over the following name--
National Rifle Association of the Republic of Ireland committee.
David Comerford ( CHAIRMAN )

Sparks wrote:

Ah, so you contend then that the LRRAI is not supported by the NRPAI? How would you know this without being a member of either body?

I love the way you slip in the odd non sequitor hoping no one will notice.
I did not contend anything. I pointed out that you were contending something,i.e you implied that statements made by a poster about the SSAI were the same as statements made by the SSAI itself.

Sparks wrote:

The correct title is the NRPAI and I can prove that if you so wish. In a manner that would be upheld by a court if it came to it. It's an inconvienent truth that most NRPAI officers wish would go away, but it's the truth nonetheless.

So what Sparks. Do you think anyone other than yourself cares about this?

Sparks wrote:

And now you're making implications that there is financial misconduct afoot. I'd correct or clarify that, were I you, it's grounds for a libel suit against you and boards.ie for the NRAI and MNSCI officials.

Now this as the high point of the note Sparks, Another non sequitor which demonstates you doing the very thing you accuse me of. I said and I quote "This argument must have rattled you. You have forgotten that the issue with the NRARI/MNSCI crossover is that of potential commercial interest"
You are the one who used the words "financial misconduct afoot" which I certainly did not say or imply.This is a very good example of your method of arguing your case.

In summary, this thread has become too convoluted and boring for all concerned. It has become another Sparks versus the world. This forum could be a wonderful way of circulating information and publicizing the sport in general but your major achievement is to turn it into a tool of division. Most regular readers of the forum will know that the only possible motivation for you to post so regularly , apart from your evident bias against the SSAI . is that you seem to like the attention. If it was not for the fact that many readers of the forum have no other source of information about the wider world of shooting in Ireland no one would post to feed your desire for visibility. Unfortunately, as much of what you say is so wrong or heavily biased, people feel it a duty to put the record straight. We should know better and leave you to wither on the vine.

Sparks

Leupold wrote:

Anyone who reads through my posts will see that my emphasis has been on unifying the sport

Actually, anyone who reads all your posts will find a clear pro-LRRAI, anti-NRAI agenda - literally, you have almost no other posts in the entire time you've been here - expressed with an amount of spin that would make most people laugh. You've claimed that the NRAI is arrogant, you've taken posters in here as posting for them even after they specifically state they're not, you make arguements based on posters' spelling or other ad hominem approaches, you engage in a variety of logic that seems entirely predicated on the assumption that you are infalliable, you flip-flop between saying that the shooters are the important ones to saying that the associations have to be the ones to decide things, and you only take time out to damn plinkers and shooters who shoot at silhouette and reactive targets!

That's rather a long way from unifying the sport!

My my, the great sparks running away from an argument!

Dissemble all you want Leupold, but I notice you didn't answer the question.

Now who is making libellous statements without any evidence?

Nobody. Look up the definition of libel, would you?

Do I really have to teach you basic stats sparks?

Nope. It seems I have to relate some basic common sense to you though. The liklihood of two wholly unrelated phenonoma (namely, the rise in membership due to the relaxed licencing conditions, and the drop in membership due to the NRAI/LRRAI dispute) being so perfectly matched as to cancel each other out is so low as to be negligible because these two phenonoma affect wholly seperate populations - the first only affects those who don't shoot fullbore yet and the latter only affects those who already do.

As we do not have any figures

In other words, you'll happily claim that the NRAI being seperate and autonomous is a negative thing for fullbore shooting, but you have absolutely no facts or figures to back that up. So, exactly why should you be listened to then? Without facts or figures, I could equally claim that the lesser spotted woodpecker's declining numbers are damaging to target shooting in Ireland!

The e-mails referred to by the poster

Indeed. That doesn't prove that the original poster is Mr.Comerford, nor that the original poster speaks for the NRAI. It just proves that someone (not even necessarily a someone within the NRAI) got a copy of that email and posted it here.

I did not contend anything. I pointed out that you were contending something

On the contrary. You were making assertions in this thread that the NRPAI had not gone to the international body or supported such approaches, nor that they supported the LRRAI. Since no public statement on the matter has been made yet by the NRPAI, how could you know this to be true?

So what Sparks. Do you think anyone other than yourself cares about this?

Yes. And more importantly, it raises the question we raised earlier. Why join the NRPAI at all? What benefit is there to it? And more relevant to those bodies already in it and considering leaving it, how can a body that won't even follow its own constitutional rules be trusted to act in anyone's best interests?

You are the one who used the words "financial misconduct afoot" which I certainly did not say or imply.

You certainly did imply it, and have done so in many posts, by stating that the MNSCI are not a seperate body from the NRAI and thus a conflict existed. I remind you of the definition of implication, Leupold, and also that lawyers have a wonderous book called a dictionary.

this thread has become too convoluted and boring for all concerned.

In other words, you've got no logical argument, no facts, no figures, and a clear agenda supporting the LRRAI against the NRAI, and you hope that people won't read the thread so that they won't see the holes in your argument or the agenda behind it.

Kye

I love the shooting boards, its like a serial everyday there is a new twist. The soap writers could find inspiration here, even when a glimpse of hope shows someone rows in with more tragedy:

"Life's but a walking shadow; a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

Enough of the shakespeare.

How about something positive?

"perchance to dream"