Non National Internationals

KdjaCL

As we know quite well its ok to drag in anyone who can drink a pint of guiness and pass them off as irish and get them playing, hell most irish fans even avtivley look for players in the hope they can play for us regardless of nationality.

With the Wc on its become more and more apparent that any country will do this Deco with Portugal, Alex with japan, all bar 2 of the French team, 2 poles up front for Germany.

What will happen when an Irishman declares for England or to a lesser extent Scotland or Canada? Will anyone care, will he be a traitor?

Few years ago i was working with 2 Algerian lads (99 tbe both arrested in Frankfurt for umm Osama related incidents) and one was football mad. The topic of Djorkaeff and Zidane and our irish English players came up.

Zidane being worshipped there as he wanted to play for Algeria but was tlaked out of it by a french coach who told him he wouldnt play for Bordeaux if he was Algerian, Djorkaeff hated as he never gave a **** and wouldnt acknowlegde that he was Algerian. He loved Zidane but hated the other and was proud that an Algerian was the best player in the world regardless that he was playing for France.

last year during the Wc qualifiers iw as working with a French lad and he disliked the non nationals in his team but admitted they were better than what was there, they really are **** if the granny rule wasnt there No Viera Zidane Makele Gallas Thuram jeez it goes on.......

Will we be as umm understanding when one of ours goes to another country?
Im thinking no, but watching the WC there is an awful lot of countries who have top leagues but play players who are not of their nationality as must rather than as a choice.


Kdjac

mike65

Yeah its been a "creeping feature" of the modern game, funny that Ireland has gone in the other direction recently looking to promote native talent rather than go chasing 2nd and 3rd generation diaspora types (whats Stauntons policy on this?). When I see the French team I don't think of them as being from far-flung French empire locations.

Mike.

evilhomer

mike65 wrote:

whats Stauntons policy on this?

He is in favour of the "Granny" rule.

I have mixed feelings about it.

Seaneh

Every team has non-national internationals though.

Camoranesi is Argentinian, Perotta was born in England!

Senna is brazilian.

Trezerguet is argentinian.

A lot of the black dutch players are from some island in south america.

I think it's probably not the fairest on some countrys that they often lose their better players to "Bigger" teams (usually it's just france nicking players from former coloneys) but at the same time as long as they have a passport, are a citizen and want to play for that country there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Staunton has said that if someone shows a desire to play for Ireland and they are good enough he will consider them.

As in, kevin nolan can fu*k off but he wouldn't mind giving Trundle a run out.

zAbbo

I think you'll find France's multi national team represents their country.

Zidane is a 1st generation immigrant as well, its not like they took him from the streets of El Djazaïr

Anyway, Pernia (spain) only got his passport a few weeks back, he's Argentinian.

Pepe LeFrits

Seaneh wrote:

Trezerguet is argentinian.

Trezeguet is French. He was born in France, his ma is French, and his dad is an Argie whose parents were French.

... anyway, I don't mind the whole qualifying through parents thing (though the grandparent rule seems a bit of a stretch...), what annoys me are the likes of Deco, Senna, S. Kalou and Pernia, who have no connection to the country they play for, other than that they've lived there for a few years. It's international football, you shouldn't be able to 'sign' players.

KdjaCL

Notice the age of the older ones and notice they played in France during the 3 foreigner rule and most were told to be french or they couldnt play.

Ryan Giggs was "told"/advised to do the same but he chose not to obtain an English citizenship, missed some games in CL over it irc.



kdjac

Seaneh

Giggs played under 21 for England did he not?


Sorry didn't realise that trez was born in roune but he was raised in Argentina.

Draupnir

Giggs played SCHOOLBOY football for England because he went to school in England. He never played in an actual England team or ever considered going to play for England.

Its the one of the biggest spoofs in football that Giggs ever wanted or was advised to play for any country but Wales.

Read his biography.

mike65

I wonder does he ever wish he'd sold out?

Mike.

pickarooney

Does the Granny rule actually have to be invoked for players like Zidane, Gallas and Henry who were born in France, or is the lesser-known 'darkie who can play a bit' rule invoked for them?

Djorkaeff hated as he never gave a **** and wouldnt acknowlegde that he was Algerian.

Not all that surprising really, as he's of Armenian extraction.

You could nearly make a team of Brazilians not playing for Brazil in this World cup
Tunisia, Portugal, Mexico, Japan, Spain, (Angola?) all have at least one

mike65

Not to mention 4 Brazilian team managers. Have talent - will travel.

Mike.

Andrew 83

Pepe LeFrits wrote:

... anyway, I don't mind the whole qualifying through parents thing (though the grandparent rule seems a bit of a stretch...), what annoys me are the likes of Deco, Senna, S. Kalou and Pernia, who have no connection to the country they play for, other than that they've lived there for a few years. It's international football, you shouldn't be able to 'sign' players.

Exactly the Irish case as it has been traditionally is quite different. Many of the players in the World Cup are essentially players who have been ignored by their original countries and after gaining citizenship in the countries they play have then declared as they are uncapped.

I think S. Kalou is actually going to play for Ivory Coast now in the end as he failed to get fast tracked to Dutch citizenship, at least I read that somewhere.

mchurl

I personally dont think the granny rule is that bad. If the player has strong enough connections with the country he should be allowed to play for them.

As for the obtaining a passport after being in the country for so long, i.e. Pernia, Deco etc., I dont think this should be allowed to happen. It is ruining international football. It could all get very silly if this keeps on going as some countries may try to persuade better younger players to live there for so long so they can get a passport to play for them.

KdjaCL

mchurl wrote:

As for the obtaining a passport after being in the country for so long, i.e. Pernia, Deco etc., I dont think this should be allowed to happen. It is ruining international football. It could all get very silly if this keeps on going as some countries may try to persuade better younger players to live there for so long so they can get a passport to play for them.

Its the clubs who do (did in the cases above) this more so than national associations well now ie Messi atm couldnt play for Barca at the start of the season due to the 5 Non EU player rule. Now hes a spanish Citizen or will be


But what if Dixon gets tapped up by England or are we doing the tapping up?


kdjac

therecklessone

KdjaC wrote:

But what if Dixon gets tapped up by England or are we doing the tapping up?


kdjac

His aul fella is a rabid England fan, I've heard he was doing his nut after England lost yesterday. Dixon has been seen in his company cheering on England. Its his mother who's the Irish influence, yeah?

If the kid is as good as people say, I expect the FA will try to steal him back.

bohsman

I think the live in the country for x amount years is far better than the I have never set foot in the country but my grandparents were born there rule.

samb

KdjaC wrote:

With the Wc on its become more and more apparent that any country will do this Deco with Portugal, Alex with japan, all bar 2 of the French team, 2 poles up front for Germany.

All bar 2 of the French team?? are you sure??

When Irish people emigrate around the world the seem to tell thier children that they (the children) are Irish and even grandchildren and grate-grandchildren call themselve Irish-American stupidly. Just because these french players are black, it doesn't mean their not French.
Where did they grow up?? What accents do they have?? born is a crude definition, one that we recently abandoned here.

I'd have to agree about Deco, if he played for Spain it wouldn't be so bad.

The Granny rule is stupid, but if it is available then Ireland may as well use it.

samb

therecklessone wrote:

His aul fella is a rabid England fan, I've heard he was doing his nut after England lost yesterday. Dixon has been seen in his company cheering on England. Its his mother who's the Irish influence, yeah?

If the kid is as good as people say, I expect the FA will try to steal him back.

40% of Irish people said they would be supporting England before the world cup, I'd say they lost most of that support quickly once we saw them play however.

cournioni

Owen Hargreaves isn't exactly full blooded English either is he?

therecklessone

samb wrote:

40% of Irish people said they would be supporting England before the world cup, I'd say they lost most of that support quickly once we saw them play however.

His father is English.

zAbbo

Klose and Podolski the two strikers for Germany are Polish.

Sure in about 15 years we'll have some squad with the eastern europeon influence, or maybe that will only help our Olympic hammer throwing team

MonkeyTennis

and Barowski..all born and raised in Poland.

masterK

zabbo wrote:

Klose and Podolski the two strikers for Germany are Polish.

Sure in about 15 years we'll have some squad with the eastern europeon influence, or maybe that will only help our Olympic hammer throwing team

At the rate our Polish friends are arriving in Ireland we'll be the same in 10-15 years.

We'll have an Irish keeper and back 4, in midfield we'll a Nigerian on each wing, a Ukranian hard man in the centre with a creative Hagi like Romanian playing just behind the two Polish lads up front.

MonkeyTennis

suits me. If they're good enough...etc

Pigman II

It's the natual way to go. A lot of countries traditionally have had problems producing players in particular postisions

eg Italy in the early 80's couldn't seem to produce many decent midfielders

or

eg Ireland haven't produced any truely top class strikers since (will since the formation of the state).

I think International football is going to get like the Ajax model i.e. try produce players in all positions for the first team but if all else fails just plug in a foreigner.

RealJohn

My personal stance on this is if you're good enough to play for the country you're actually from (not necessarily where you're born by the way) then that's who you should be playing for. If you're not good enough to play for "[your] own" country, then you can consider playing for another country that you qualify to play for.

This is purely a personal opinion. And in fairness, who am I to judge seeing as:
1. I'm never going to be asked to play international soccer for anyone.
2. Even if I was, I'm 99% sure I could only qualify for Ireland.

PHB

Giggs could never have played for England. He doesn't qualify under any conditions. He only played as a schoolboy cause he went to school in England.

France are like New Zealand in rugby. Most of all the All Blacks come from surrounding Islands. France did the same thing in footballing terms, and by god, it has paid off.

Makaveli

samb wrote:

I'd have to agree about Deco, if he played for Spain it wouldn't be so bad.

He has only played in Spain for two seasons, it would make no sense if he was playing for the Spanish national side.

anonymous_joe

PHB wrote:

France are like New Zealand in rugby. Most of all the All Blacks come from surrounding Islands. France did the same thing in footballing terms, and by god, it has paid off.

French take players from their colonies... New Zealand poach players from other countries. Subtle difference.

therecklessone

anonymous_joe wrote:

French take players from their colonies... New Zealand poach players from other countries. Subtle difference.

Former colonies.

Not so subtle difference...:p

anonymous_joe

Hehe. To be honest, I always thought Vieira was a bit (not sure what words are forbidden ) for screwing over Senegal, but a lot of French players are second or third generation (Zidane etc). And that's not as bad as taking guys with no real connection to your country. Compare that to a Fijian making his New Zealand debut against Fiji and grabbing a few tries...

Anyway, being Irish I don't think we can really talk about non-national players, but everyone does it these days... Well, all the Europeans...