Rogue Review

Jim

First look only, nothing is definatly confirmed or unconfirmed to be implimented.

The review is well underway and we wanted to share a sort of first glimpse into the changes being made for the rogue talent review. Keep in mind that these changes are not complete or final, and the below information is likely to alter as we move into our testing phases. While not everything is listed, the below list encompasses the majority of changes being made in the review.

I'll be working in the weeks to come to get as much additional information as possible, but it is likely that quite a bit of the final information regarding talent changes will not be fully announced until the talent calculators go live. Of course you'll also be able to actually play around with the changes too once the Public Test Realms go up.

I'm going to just list the changes and provide additional information where possible or necessary. Let's get to it.

# The following talents have been removed: Improved Deadly Poison, Improved Distract, Throwing Weapon Specialization, Improved Vanish, and Rapid Concealment.

# Improved Instant Poison is now "Improved Poisons" and increases your chance to apply ALL poisons by 2/4/6/8/10%.

# Rapid Concealment has been merged with Camouflage, by combining these talents you not only get a great talent to start off the tree, but obviously it frees up a number of points to be spent elsewhere.

# Murder will now also apply to all finishing moves. The benefit this will provide to output and attack combinations is fairly straightforward.

# Vile Poisons now gives your poisons a chance to resist dispel effects, in addition to increasing poison damage.

# Improved Kidney Shot has been changed, and will instead increase the damage taken by the target while they are affected by Kidney Shot. This talent no longer reduces the cooldown of Kidney Shot.

# Improved Sprint has been changed, and will instead have a 50/100% chance to remove all movement impairing effects when you activate your Sprint ability. This talent no longer reduces the cooldown of Sprint.

# Improved Evasion renamed to Endurance, and will add a Sprint cooldown reduction.

# New talent Weapon Expertise in the Combat tree, increases your weapon skill with all melee weapons. The recovery of damage with an increased weapon skill should be a good boost to overall output.

# Initiative is being reduced to a 3 point talent, but resulting in the same 75% end chance to add an additional combo point.

# Elusiveness is being reduced to a 3 point talent, but resulting in the same 75 sec cooldown reduction to Evasion, Blind, and Vanish.

# Ghostly Strike now has a reduced Energy cost, the reduction of Energy was enough to make it necessary to also reduce the damage output slightly.

# Improved Garrotes damage reduction will be removed. This is being changed as part of an overall improvement for Garrote.

# Setup is being moved higher up in the tree, becoming a 16 point talent with no prerequisites, helping move the talent in reach of specific builds.

# New talent Heightened Senses in the subtlety tree, increases your Stealth detection, and reduces the chance for you to be hit by spells and ranged attacks.

# Hemorrhage will be moved up in the tree to become a 21 point talent. This should help to place the ability in a more reachable position, and allow for a little more versatility with specific talent builds.

# New talent Deadliness in the Subtlety tree, increases your Attack Power by a percentage.

# Premeditation will have its Energy requirement removed, changed to an instant cast, and range increased. Its cooldown will remain the same. Premeditation will now be pre-reqd by Preperation.

# Vanish will now remove effects that allow the caster to remain aware of the rogues presence, such as Mind Vision and Hunters Mark.

# Garrote, Rupture, and Eviscerate are being increased in damage. More details to come.

# Expose Armor will now reduce armor by a percentage.

Paj

looks good for rogues they needed a buff but where is the protection against hunters mark? it takes them out of the game for 2 mins. Farce.

Drakar

# Vanish will now remove effects that allow the caster to remain aware of the rogues presence, such as Mind Vision and Hunters Mark.

Looks like vanish does the job?

Paj

oops! missed that :-)

anonymous_joe

Gives me something to look forward to while I grind my new rogue to 60.

Subtletly tree seems to have gotten an immense buff... Pity I only used MOD...

Hope evisc get's linked to AP, while rupture and garrote have always had potential, they're now going to be viable options...

Imp Kidney Shot sounds very intriguing...

sunzz

lol so imba.

Jim

sunzz wrote:

lol so imba.

Explain how.

seamus

Time for a 'lock review too...

masteroftherealm

Well it looks like theyve done the impossbile.
Theyve made rogues even better for PVP!

Ivan

# Vile Poisons now gives your poisons a chance to resist dispel effects, in addition to increasing poison damage.

# Improved Sprint has been changed, and will instead have a 50/100% chance to remove all movement impairing effects when you activate your Sprint ability. This talent no longer reduces the cooldown of Sprint.

Speaking from a druid and a mage perspective, these 2 seem particularly imbalanced... A chance to resist poison dispels...? Does that mean the PvP trinket can be resisted by the slowing posion...

Improved sprint... hmm, removes slowing effects giving a speed boost allowing escape or more likely, allowing the rogue to catch up to the mage that was kiting him...

I just dont know, its early stages yet, and I'm happy for rogues, but of all the classes they seemed the least foobar'd before their review.

nicryan

well now I'm gonna have to re-spec...nolonger will I be able to out dps a rogue


Nic
-warrior

anonymous_joe

nicryan wrote:

well now I'm gonna have to re-spec...nolonger will I be able to out dps a rogue


Nic
-warrior

Hence the buff.

While I think fury warriors are cool, and I've beaten a few 1 on 1 (:p ), I think it's a bit of a farce that they can outdamage rogues, have more hitpoints and a lot more armour...

And for those lickle squishies trembling at the thought of more damage... mwahahaha. On a more serious note though... before leaving Khadgar for pastures new, I was geared in all blues, and while battles with other blued up types was fair and fun, against epic geared toons it became silly. Being two-shotted by warriors isn't fun, but that's WoW. As it is, epic mages and locks especially, do so much damage that a visible rogue is ****ed. The difference becomes even more apparent when you think that I need to use pots, mainly thistle tea, to take down a 'lock clad in epics... Otherwise, I simply get feared when Kidney Shot runs out, than Death Coiled and DoTted...

Ivan

anonymous_joe wrote:

Hence the buff.

While I think fury warriors are cool, and I've beaten a few 1 on 1 (:p ), I think it's a bit of a farce that they can outdamage rogues, have more hitpoints and a lot more armour...

And for those lickle squishies trembling at the thought of more damage... mwahahaha. On a more serious note though... before leaving Khadgar for pastures new, I was geared in all blues, and while battles with other blued up types was fair and fun, against epic geared toons it became silly. Being two-shotted by warriors isn't fun, but that's WoW. As it is, epic mages and locks especially, do so much damage that a visible rogue is ****ed. The difference becomes even more apparent when you think that I need to use pots, mainly thistle tea, to take down a 'lock clad in epics... Otherwise, I simply get feared when Kidney Shot runs out, than Death Coiled and DoTted...

Actually, I'd imagine thats the other way around, Death coil first then fear, but how and ever...

how do you think mages feel, compared to warriors? We were the original damage dealers and now we get some sorry excuse about CC/Ranged dps/blah blah blah.

We have the same relationship with hunters as rogues have with warriors. Our nemesis, that we can beat given the right gear/spec/situation. Perhaps we can take hunters more often than hunters, but thats more down to skill levels than anything else...

Face it though, when Blizzard decide to go away from the "pigeon-holing" of characters into dps/tanks/healers, it was the dps classes that took it the hardest. Other classes have alot to fall back on, on the basis that they had original roles that werent really affected, but us damage dealers got nothing extra to compensate for the extra damage dealing capabilities other classes were given...

There is no two ways about that. Still, my biggest problems are with warlocks and shadow priests, so, enjoy your review

DapperGent

My main is an elemental shaman and I'm a bit sick of being stunlocked (quite literally) to death by rogues, feels like I'm a free kill in a lot of ways. With PVP trinket on cooldown it seems I have 0 chance against a worse geared rogue and with it up I have 0 chance against an epic one. Which is more than a little frustrating and really no fun. It's not really the losing to them that is no fun I honestly couldn't care less it's having no control over your character for most of the duration of a fight. Hugely annoying.

The same thing can happen to me (and most classes) against a warlock but usually thats my own fault. I forgot to pop grounding totem and tremor totem, mistimed an earthshock etc. so while running around for 30secs getting dotted to death is annoying at least I can do something about it if I play well.

Coming out of a rogue stunlock I need to pop a poison cleansing totem/depoison myself so I can move, earthbind so rogue can't follow me, put a flameshock on him so he can't vanish, NS + Heal myself (only about 1800 or so on average) and then if I do manage to get range on him I'll be out of range of my first poison totem so I have to recast that in case he blinds me. All the spells kick in the universal cooldown so it takes a good while to cycle through them and they're all essential and all have to be done on the move. It's rare I actually get through this routine before I'm back to being stunned again or need to stop to cast a heal again. Gah annoying!

Anyway enough whining. They can do what they like to rogues buff them into invincible killing machines or whatever, just give me back control of character!

anonymous_joe

Elemental shamans aren't as popular as they were, but as a dagger rogue rather than hemo I struggled against ye olde enhancement shammys sometimes... Elly shamans when met, were a much easier challenge, but if I was visible when attacked I was ****ed.

Haven't used my Nelf rogue in a while, but the one notable difference between that and my UD is the stealth issue - baby rogues are easy to spot and then kill... As a lvl 60 with 5 MOD (throw Nelf into that too) you're much harder to see, especially if you hide, and as such can choose your fights.

1 on 1, up close and personal a caster class should be ****ed. End of story. My two problems were lag... (Laptops dont like WoW ) and my teammates... I've been healed more in a week as a Horde than on my main... sad but only slightly exaggerated.

To claim rogues are imba because you get killed by stunlocking is a bit silly... A rogue who attacks you from stealth has the advantage...

Our biggest problem, and the balancing feature, is that we suck when visible. Moreover, it's hard to attack two enemies at once, but hey, we're rogues.

Ivan

Actually, I read a nice post on the WoW EU forums where some guy pointed out how these changes are basically really gonna screw Warlocks the most.

As it is, most warlocks have a tough time against rogues unless they have the right pet out (which is strangely voidwalker for shield and then insta cast their succubus) and have death coil ready and even then it can be a tough one. But with improved kidney shot, they are gonna take alot more damage...

Mages could always teleport out of stuns, so we're less (read almost completely not) affected by this change. As for the change to improved sprint, well a 1 second (talented) rank 1 frostbolt, after poping sprint will do wonders.

What does concern me though, is a sprint + vanish combo. Removal from snares and roots in the space of a few seconds... Its a little terrifying as a mage

Mr. CooL ICE

I do agree that its pretty unfair for rogues to be so underpowered these days; a friend of mine who has a blued-out 60 rogue on bladefist, who had been playing since the beta version, left the game because he couldnt appear unstealthed without dying within seconds.

Even as a warrior that is mainly protection specced (15 arms, 11 fury, 25 prot) and pre-epic, i can still beat rogues 1v1, which is ridiculous. Maybe its due to me using improved overpower (50% crit chance, works a charm against rogues and hunters with high agi), but still... Warriors can be pretty underpowered at times, and usually die if we don't get the first attack in (mostly charge, builds some vital rage), but against a rogue, i bloodthirst, demoralize shout to expose him if i know hes nearby, hamstring, berzerk mode+rage and heroic shout away, switching to battle stance to overpower whenever rogue dodges, and theyre usually dead withing a few seconds

anonymous_joe

Imagine that, but think of yourself as arms specced with a big f off sword. Hunters scary? You're having a larf. Epic-warriors are incredible.

Paj

Paj wrote:

takes them out of the game for 2 mins. Farce.

That is the whole point of the mark, delete hunters if your gonna make it removeable for rogues - What do you want a free shot at a hunter every time so he cant see you?

Binomate

Deleted User wrote:

That is the whole point of the mark, delete hunters if your gonna make it removeable for rogues - What do you want a free shot at a hunter every time so he cant see you?

This made me laugh. You think it's fair that hunters mark can take what keeps a rogue alive in battlegounds away from him for two whole minutes? Not just two minutes. If a rogue doesn't have it dispelled and decides to wait it out, the hunter knows exactly where you are so he can just re mark you. What ever about hunters being rogue killers but hunters mark is just rediculous. A hunter has a move to counter act every single move a rogue can make, but that isn't enough for you is it? The only way a rogue has any chance against a hunter 1 on 1 is if a) the hunter doesn't expect the rogue. b) the hunter is retarded and c) the rogue has all his cooldowns like sprint and blind. To think that I saw a suggestion on the hunters forum that hunters mark should show the target to your whole parties mini map.

I can't wait for the review. I'm tired of rogue being so bloody vunerable and having no survivability in battlegrounds. The only things I might add is that if a rogue resists an aoe spell or gets an aoe fear, he doesn't destealth. In the case of the fear, he gets feared in stealth. It's stupid that a mage can use a rank 1 aoe spell using almost 0 mana to destealth a rogue like that. Hell, the only class that can't bring a rogue out of stealth is the rogue class.

nesf

Deleted User wrote:

That is the whole point of the mark, delete hunters if your gonna make it removeable for rogues - What do you want a free shot at a hunter every time so he cant see you?

Eh, will just require a few more buttons. Mark, he vanishes, flare or detect hidden and then flare depending and then just remark him. His cooldown for vanish gives him one auto escape from mark, that's all. On a BG it's not going to be that harsh for us. It's not like Hunter's Mark is on a cooldown anyways.

Ivan

In all fairness, compare the warlock vs. mage fight. Granted, most classes dont fair well with a warlock but a rogue has as much of a chance against a warlock as a mage has with a hunter.

With that said, I think as Nesf stated, removing hunters mark in no way imbalances a rogue vs. a hunter. Hunter has track hidden, flare and just reapplying mark again.

nesf

Ivan wrote:

With that said, I think as Nesf stated, removing hunters mark in no way imbalances a rogue vs. a hunter. Hunter has track hidden, flare and just reapplying mark again.

All it has done has removed the "auto-nerf" button for people who haven't bothered to think about the class tbh.

Orion

nesf wrote:

Eh, will just require a few more buttons. Mark, he vanishes, flare or detect hidden and then flare depending and then just remark him. His cooldown for vanish gives him one auto escape from mark, that's all.

Well two escapes for a Subtlety rogue with Preparation

nesf

Macros42 wrote:

Well two escapes for a Subtlety rogue with Preparation

Heh, to he who spec's my son comes the spoils, to he who spec's.

anonymous_joe

Hemo... bleugh.

Great spec, but I'd miss the backstab. Saying that, I love being in parties with a hemo rogue. That teensy weensy extra bit of damage is nice.

Orion

Got hemo too - love it for the damage and the extra combo point. Open move against mobs in pve is usually Cheap Shot, Hemo, SS, SS, Evic.

anonymous_joe

Ah. Cheap shot, backstab, gouge backstab, evis, gouge, backstab, etc, etc.

Orion

hehe - that's the pvp combo

anonymous_joe

No, that was pve and pvp for my old rogue.

Using swords to level at the moment. It's easier I think, what with the massive (in comparison) white damage, and the SS's. Also great because you don't have to jump around like an eejit. Saying that, I keep finding myself running behind an enemy/mob, lining up a great backstab, and remembering I can only SS. /sigh

Jim

New talents give the edge to sword rogues and effectivly remove any reason to be dagger spec'd in PvE. Daggers get 0 buffs whereas swords get a substansial increase in dps, coupled with the fact that sword PvE spec is viable is PvP and swords are easier to do damage with overall (don't have to be behind a target etc) it seems swords will be way to go.