Fate in Islam

the_new_mr

This is continued on from another thread to prevent the original thread going too off topic.

The idea of fate or destiny in Islam is simple in essence but can also be quite complicated. Of course, only God can truly understand it but we can make our best attempts at doing so.

I remember reading a book about a year ago that talked about fate in Islam. It was very well written actually. I don't have it now unfortunately. Anyway, it talked about how there are three basic ideas of fate (or lack of it) and how Islam teaches only one of them.

a)
The first idea of fate is that nobody has any control over what happens in the sense that their fate is controlling their decisions, actions, the outcomes of events... anything that happens at all is completely out of control. Some people use this argument to say that since we have no control over our actions then why should we be held accountable for doing something wrong? For example, a murderer could say that they were fated to kill someone and therefore should not be punished for doing something that they were fated to do. This is of course completely against the teachings of Islam.

b)
The second idea of fate is that everything is out of control. This idea of fate says that whether God exists or not, everything that happens is completely down to the actions of individuals or based upon chaos theory. Islam rejects this idea of fate also (obviously).

c)
The final idea of fate and the one taught by Islam is somewhere between the two above (but can also be said to be the hardest to understand). God knows everything that has happened and will happen. Nothing happens without His knowledge. He's independant of time and looks upon time as if it were a series of frames stretched out in front of Him. So, if everything that is going to happen is already written then isn't this fatalism? Well, not quite. Although God knows everything that's going to happen that doesn't mean that we haven't chosen these events in the first place. We can't do anything unless God wills it to happen so our free will is limited by God's will but He also lets us make our own decisions.

So, as far as we're concerned, the future hasn't happened yet so we have make all the effort we can to try and make the best outcome for ourselves. This means eating well, sleeping well, studying for exams, wearing helmets when biking etc.

The late Sheikh Mohamed Metwaly Al-Sharawi explained it like this.

If a student studies very hard for an exam but doesn't get the mark they wanted or you might even say that they didn't get the mark they believed they would get with all the hard work they put in then you can say that that is fate.

But a student can't play all day and not study and then when they fail say "Ah well, it's fate" This is a fate they have brought upon themselves.

Also, our actions are measured by our intentions so you can also say that the intention behind the action is what really matters even if the action is written anyway.

And God knows best.

Here are some verses from the Quran since God can explain it better than anyone else.

Free will limited by God's will:
Al-Muddathir:56
"But they [who do not believe in the life to come] will not take it to heart unless God so wills: [for] He is the Fount of all God-consciousness, and the Fount of all forgiveness."

Whoever wils, let him...:

... believe and disbelieve
Al-Kahf:29
"And say: "The truth [has now come] from your Sustainer: let, then, him who wills, believe in it, and let him who wills, reject it." Verily, for all who sin against themselves [by rejecting Our truth] We have readied a fire whose billowing folds will encompass them from all sides; and if they beg for water, they will be given water [hot] like molten lead, which will scald their faces: how dreadful a drink, and how evil a place to rest!"

... take a path to his Lord
Al-Insan:29-30
"Verily, all this is an admonition: whoever, then, so wills, may unto his Sustainer find a way; But you cannot will it unless God wills [to show you that way]: for, behold, God is indeed all-seeing, wise.

... walk straight
Al-Takwir:27-28
"This [message] is no less than a reminder to all mankind –; to everyone of you who wills to walk a straight way."

Some links on the subject.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996016064&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE
http://www.islamonline.net/english/introducingislam/Belief/Destiny/article03.shtml
http://www.islamonline.net/english/introducingislam/belief/destiny/article02.shtml

Wibbs

Well nobody can accuse you of short non informative posts. Ta for clearing that up.

Qadri

I just want to add some thing:

Fate ( Qadr) is that Allah knows everything and he knows what is going to happen.

Now the question is if he knows everything than why did he create us and why do we live with the potential in us of doing good and bad?

A teacher who has been teaching for 20 years has a lot of experience of teaching and also about the different kind of students. So when the new year starts the teacher can actually within one week forecast which student will pass the year and which will fail. 90% of his forecasting becomes reality.
The reason that the teacher was 90% right is just that he has somuch experience as a teacher.

Also a mother after raising up her children she at one stage can actually say wether her child will have a good career or not. Because she knows her child so good . Most of the time she is right.

In the same way Allah is our creator. The creator knows his creation very well. He knows exactly what his creation will do when he gives them free will.
Allah's knowledge about his creation is accurate. So this is fate.

the_new_mr

Yes, that's another good way of explaining it.

Still, God is able to change events in our lives if we ask Him to. This "change" was of course already written in the first place so it may seem strange to call it a change. Still, it's up to the individual to make the decision to ask God in the first place if you know what I mean?

As an example, someone may find themselves completely lost in a strange city and they can't speak the language. They pray to God to get them out of this predicament and God does indeed do that (maybe by making the person who is lost bump into their host whilst looking for each other in a busy area).

God knew that the person would get lost and He knew that the person would pray to Him to get them out of the situation and He answered their prayer and He knew He would but, as far as the person who is lost is concerned (who travels along time in a linear fashion moment by moment unlike God who is free of the contricts of time), they still have to take the decision to pray to God because, to them, the future hasn't happened yet.

Wibbs wrote:

Well nobody can accuse you of short non informative posts. Ta for clearing that up.

You're very welcome Wibbs. I pray that it has been explained correctly.

Wibbs

It did actually. Funny enough even as an agnostic I can see where you are coming from. Time is linear to us. It's possible that if you could look outside time and observe it as fully in the non linear 4th dimension, past future and present is/was/will be already decided, but that wouldn't take away from "free will" as you don't observe it as such, though the thought makes my head hurt. Where's a mad physics boffin when you need one.:D

the_new_mr

Qadri

There is a Hadith in where the Prophet (PBUH) said:

La yurad ul Qada illa bid Duaa was Sadaqa
Faith can be changed by giving charity and by praying to Allah (swt)

So you are right brother that faith can be changed also. If one is very close to Allah (swt) and reaches the stage where not only he loves Allah, but Allah (swt) also starts loving him so he becomes the beloved of Allah (swt) than whatever is uttered from the mouth of that beloved servent becomes faith.

Like Allah's messenger Moses (pbuh) sent the angel of death back when he came to take his rooh.

But offcourse Allah knows about this also before hand that he will change the faith.

Wibbs

Qadri wrote:

I just want to add some thing:

Fate ( Qadr) is that Allah knows everything and he knows what is going to happen.

Now the question is if he knows everything than why did he create us and why do we live with the potential in us of doing good and bad?

A teacher who has been teaching for 20 years has a lot of experience of teaching and also about the different kind of students. So when the new year starts the teacher can actually within one week forecast which student will pass the year and which will fail. 90% of his forecasting becomes reality.
The reason that the teacher was 90% right is just that he has somuch experience as a teacher.

Also a mother after raising up her children she at one stage can actually say wether her child will have a good career or not. Because she knows her child so good . Most of the time she is right.

In the same way Allah is our creator. The creator knows his creation very well. He knows exactly what his creation will do when he gives them free will.
Allah's knowledge about his creation is accurate. So this is fate.

I was thinking more about this after a reading another thread about forgiveness. While I understand your example of the teacher or the mother the big difference is that the teacher is essentially in the dark about the outcome. He/she can predict, but that's not the same thing. Also the teacher doesn't create the students with different skills or ablities. If you consider an all knowing God, He obviously both creates and knows the outcome. He "stacks the deck" as it were. In such a case free will cannot exist. EG if you are created by God/Allah with a fault in your DNA or circumstance of upringing that makes you a psychopath, how do you have free will when compared to one who does not have such disadvantages? Therefore on that basis Allah/God creates sinners whom he then punishes. Hardly fair.

By definition surely an all knowing Allah and free will are incompatible?

Medina

Does God not create each individual equal?

We are all a blank canvas with no deeds, and our free will is what we use to make our life decisions.

God knows what choices we will pick, but He doesn't force us into that choice.

Every choice you make in your life is your free will. But God knew what your decision would be.

babyvaio

Medina wrote:

Does God not create each individual equal?

We are all a blank canvas with no deeds, and our free will is what we use to make our life decisions.

God knows what choices we will pick, but He doesn't force us into that choice.

Every choice you make in your life is your free will. But God knew what your decision would be.

1 - we all have choices.
2 - Allah swt knew what your choice will be.
3 - we all have free will.
4 - we all are created equal.
5 - we all follow our choices.
6 - we all pick something.
7 - some pick evil, some pick good.
and 7 does not mean we are not equal - we are equal to pick, to choose, but what we pick makes us different. So Allah swt did not create us different in that respect, but we ourselves made (not created though) us different.

Medina wrote:

Does God not create each individual equal?

Of couse He swt does - in that respect mentioned above.

Medina

It was a rhetorical question babyvaio. You're agreeing with what I said

Wibbs

Here's the problem and it's a problem with many faiths.

babyvaio wrote:

1 - we all have choices.

Not really. Many of our choices are down to upbringing/genetics which we have little or no control over.

2 - Allah swt knew what your choice will be.

and created you in the first place knowing the choices and the circumstances that made those choices.

3 - we all have free will.

Refer to 1 and 2

4 - we all are created equal.

In the sight of God maybe, but that equality varies with the lot we're given.

5 - we all follow our choices./6 - we all pick something./7 - some pick evil, some pick good.

True, but the cards are loaded one way or the other. If you consider no. 1 then you could argue that God tests us differently therefore some have it easier than others.

So Allah swt did not create us different in that respect, but we ourselves made (not created though) us different.

More and more we are learning that people at birth are not a clean slate by any means. Even twins who share the same DNA, womb and the same parents can have quite differing personalities. Many of our apparent choices cannot be free, especially if God created us with different abilities/personalities/backgrounds.

Medina

Your argument centres mainly around circumstance and upbringing.

While many conform to do things because that's the example given by their parents or peers, many do not..hundreds of thousands of teenagers all over the world fall out with their parents because they won't act as they wish them to (whether good or bad).

School if available also provides a more objective view of life...while say in Ireland there's a distinctly Catholic flavour..the child still learns other ways of thinking from friends , teachers etc. but also the Catholic flavour itself is possibly completely different to how the child is brought up at home.

Fundamentally most people get a sense of morality or even evil. It could be from the news, or TV. So I don't think that you can say we didn't really have a choice because thats the way we were brought up.

Different views of life appeal to different people (and by this I mean people look on others and decide whether their actions are bad or good and thus adopt similar) and they choose it because they enjoy that kind of life.

To sin is very tempting to all human beings. True tests might be different but the principle behind every choice is the same..is it right or is it wrong?

Wibbs

Medina wrote:

To sin is very tempting to all human beings. True tests might be different but the principle behind every choice is the same..is it right or is it wrong?

No, I do take yours and babyvaio's points. The question might be better put that both of you(even me:) ) can tell right from wrong. The very definitions of which can vary through time and culture and can vary between different religious beliefs, certainly in the details. The thread in music a case in point. Babyvaio might contend that music is not a good thing, you might contend that it's OK if it doesn't lead to sin. I might listen to pretty much everything. None of us would listen to westlife.... Regardless you both recognise the difference especially with the big sins/crimes (murder rape etc). The thing is there are people who don't precisely due to those factors of DNA/upbringing. What about them? Now I know that Islam considers those who are mentally deficient not responsible for their actions, my point being that many of the things we considered major sins would be committed in many many case by those we would now recognise as mentally deficient.*


*Oh Oh may have answered my own question there. Ah well no charge.

the_new_mr

Well, although you may have answered your own question already Wibbs , I think maybe some further ellaborating on my part might be required with respect to the point of the "stacking of the deck"

Before I say any more, I'd like to reiterate that it's very difficult for the human mind to fully comprehend the idea of free will and fate. The reason for this is that the human mind is 3 dimensional (length, breadth and height) whereas the universe is really 4 dimensional (length, breadth, height and time). Still, I strongly believe that we can make a close attempt at understanding the idea of fate and use this in our lives.

I was watching a programme on BBC (BBC learning... class programming by the way... if on a little too late ) and it was talking about physics and the concept of time in particular. Anyway, one of the physicists put it a really good way. He said that if you imagine that all time exists at the same time in a way that all the frames of a film exist together. The person in one of the middle frames still hasn't gotten to the next frame and so, as far as they're concerned, it still hasn't happened yet. The future depends on the choices they make and, although you can say that the future already exists (and God already knows it), it still depends on the past.

So, everyone has free will and God rewards or punishes according to this. We can't do anything unless God lets it happen of course but He leaves us to make our own decisions on pretty much everything in our lives.

Anyway, I fear I might be repeating myself a bit from my post from about 3 weeks ago so I'll just add one more thing.

As God is known for being the most Just, then He will never punish anyone unfairly because they live in particularly difficult circumstances or have a particular DNA make up. As Wibbs has already stated, people with mental problems are not held accountable for their actions.

And considering someone who is say brought up in a hot country where everyone has a short temper and everyone is just brought up that way (I'm not saying that is a good thing by the way ) then I personally believe that God will not punish someone for losing their temper as much as someone brought up in, say, Ireland where people might be generally cooler. However, a person in Ireland or the hot country should both aim to be as calm as possible and everyone will be rewarded accordingly.

I believe that the same goes for someone brought up in a difficult home or lived a difficult childhood, has tendencies based on genetics etc. Right and wrong are still clear and everyone should only do what's right and avoid what's wrong but God knows what's in everyone's hearts and will never Judge unfairly.

And God knows best.