English players not world class

Ardent

The post mortem has begun.

http://wc2006.telegraph.co.uk/Document.aspx?id=0C43677D-4F73-40EB-BA8F-A385F05F5F9D

An interesting excerpt:

As a footballing nation we delude ourselves that we possess world class players who shine week in week out in the Premiership. Frank Lampard, and Steven Gerrard are very good players but they are not world class. They are able to play well in the Premiership because they are surrounded by top quality foreign players who are technically and tactically superior to their English counterparts. In the last twenty years we have produced only two players who are technically good enough to be among the world’s best, Paul Gascoinge and Wayne Rooney.

What do you think? Are non-English players better technically and tactically than their English counter parts? Is that why players who shine in the Premiership look ordinary at the highest level of football?

Attractive Nun

Meh, I would say that the English players were overhyped before the World Cup, but are probably now being underrated - bad performances can happen for many reasons. I would disagree about Steven Gerrard, for one, I do think he is one of the world's top midfielders. Xabi Alonso, Harry Kewell, Luis Garcia and Sissoko are good players, but none have particularly shined in the World Cup (I know Sissoko didn't play) any more than Gerrard, so I don't see how they are 'technically and tactically' superior, although maybe Alonso is. Lampard's ability is exagerrated by a Chelsea team based, in part, around his shooting ability, but you could say that about most top players.

Players from some parts of the world (the Mediterranean and South America, mainly) are obviously more comfortable in possession, and they play a slower, more tactical game than English players. The Premiership is a fast-paced league that doesn't focus as much on possession as, say, La Liga, but that doesn't necessarily mean its players are technically worse. It's just a different style of play. It's a good point nonetheless, that when coming up against top teams you do have to adapt your game somewhat, because if you give away possession you're unlikely to get it back for some time. Maybe the fact that English players have foreigners to do that for them at club level makes this more difficult for them. England's central problem, in this regard, was that the two players who are most important in achieving that - the central midfielders - were Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard.

Nalz

I was always a fan of certain English players such as Rooney, Terry, Lampard and to a certain degree Gerrard and Owen.

However, Ive come to the point of view is that to be a world class player two points come to mind:

1) consistency
2) the ablility to perform regardless of the class of your teammates and your position/coaches tactics

For this reason this is why Wayne Rooney is a geat player, but not world class he's an 9/10 or maybe an 8.5...but never a ten. Not yet anyway. Same regarding Lampard and Terry. Terry being the closest, though he had an average world cup (maybe down to fatigue). I think their keeper Ronbinson is the closest they have to being world class...and he is not world class, not yet anyway.

Zidane is WC, regardless of his World Cup performance.

Attractive Nun

Robinson? There are easily 6 or 7 keepers in the Premiership alone I would rate better than, or at the very least equal to, him. Cech, Van Der Sar, Reina, Given, Lehmann, Jääskeläinen, Cudicini even? He's a very good shot stopper, but (as the WC shows) not great a dealing with set pieces, high balls, organising or generally the 'goalkeeping' part of the job. Terrible distribution also.

Jivin Turkey

How many La Liga players have looked ordinary at the highest level?

Spain crashed out in the last 16 and Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos and Robinho were all poor.

Is Spanish football "overhyped"?

bohsman

I think the money they are being paid has a lot to do with it, players like Ronaldo at Madrid are multi millionaires and the hunger is gone.

Unearthly

This will go back to the topic "how do you define worldclass". We all have our opinions on what it is.

Personally I think Terry, Gerrard and Rooney are. They mightn't look good for England, but I believe that's down to not fitting in the system. Benitez for example knows how to get the best out of Gerrard.

iregk

In the terms then does that mean Serie A is the best league in the world considering they will have 11 players in the final at the starting whistle from one team alone?

To me the english team suffers from the premership mentallity. The hyperbole "greatest league in the world" delusion. You hear it all the time adn get told it all the time and the media carry it to their national team. I think the English team is hugely over rated. They will tell you Joe Cole is world class but how woudl he do at Milan or Real/Barca? Nothing special if you ask me. Beckham has been very ordinary for Real this despite the fact he is supposidly one of the worlds best players.

To be fair though I think part of the blame is the manager and the lack of preperation / organisation.

WhiteWashMan

Attractive Nun wrote:

Robinson? There are easily 6 or 7 keepers in the Premiership alone I would rate better than, or at the very least equal to, him. Cech, Van Der Sar, Reina, Given, Lehmann, Jääskeläinen, Cudicini even? He's a very good shot stopper, but (as the WC shows) not great a dealing with set pieces, high balls, organising or generally the 'goalkeeping' part of the job. Terrible distribution also.

im going to have to defend robinson here.
like a lot of the english players, i dont think he played to his full potential in this world cup.

you look at his week in week out performances, he is one of the best shot stoppers in the premiership, probably equal to cech. i dont know any other keeper with the relexes, except maybe given (and hes had considerably more practise this season )
his distribution is awesome as well, and ive never seen him flap at crosses.

but then again, he plays behind decent players week in and week out instead of those numpties like ferdinand

WhiteWashMan

Jivin Turkey wrote:

How many La Liga players have looked ordinary at the highest level?

Spain crashed out in the last 16 and Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos and Robinho were all poor.

Is Spanish football "overhyped"?

but the best player in the world is ronaldinho.

but apprently he was crap in this world cup.

personally, i saw someone who held the ball up, never gave it away, his passes always found their mark, and his through balls were sublime.

but he didnt do enough little shimmies, so he hasnt performed.

so many people seem to think you need to be stylish to be world class. rubbish. you need to play to a high calibre, every game.

england didnt do it in this workd cup. for their clubs, i think the majority of them do.

but then again, weve been disappointed by so many players and so many teams.

and every league thinks its the greatest league inthe world. some people just only like to pick on a certain league. personally i think the italian league is crap. its dull and boring for me. but there you go.
it wouldnt have surprised me if england had won, but it certianly didnt surprise me they went out.

i honestly feel that they were let down by two things. the long season, and the manager. and i think the manager was 90% of the problem. except for lampard. i fel sorry for him. he just looked exhausted and frustrated most of the time. i dont think many of the first 11 team enjoyed playing. it was only the likes of carrick, lennon, carrigher and hargreaves that looked like they really wanted to be out there and fought for everything.

el rabitos

of course english players are mainly devoid of any technique. the premiership is the worst real football in the world, and it reflects in how the national team plays.

they have no clue what to do when a team plays football against them, they couldnt play football, just 1990 jack charlton tactics.

theres obviously some players that have technical ability, lampard, cole (when he remembers to use it), gerrard, beckham (before he got sh!t)

the italian and spanish league are the places where technique is the key to winning, thats why zidane and figo and the other real world class players in their day have stayed in those leagues.

the dissadvantage the spanish national team has is there are no rough and tough players in the team, because that type of player isnt groomed in a league like that.

add gattusso and pirlo or mascherano to that spanish team and ur looking at the world champions easily imo

MisterAnarchy

The whole footballing culture is wrong in England.
From an early age up physical strength and size are hugely important.
Look at any of the English underage teams,they are all huge for their age compared to other countries.
If you arent big and strong its very tough to make it due to the physical aspects of the English style of football.
Alot of the more skillful players find it hard to break thru .
The English game is so fast that it is very hard to maintain a passing game .
I remember playing football with a Portuguese friend of mine and his friends in Portugal in 2004 .
It was a joy to play with them ,stroking the ball around,keeping it on the ground,lovely flicks.
Compare this to the typical game here or in England,long balls being booted from one end of the pitch to the other,ball spending most of its time in the air.

PHB

meh, Paul Scholes was more technically gifted than Gazza, and a better player to boot.

Pigman II

I think a lot of the England players were let down by the manager. I think of their XI only Rooney and Gerrard are World Class anyway so it's not as if they underachieved wildly but I could have seen them getting to the semis or final with a better manager than SGE. At the very least they could have avoided being one of the worst teams to watch in WC2006 without him anyway.

Rikand

Attractive Nun wrote:

Robinson? There are easily 6 or 7 keepers in the Premiership alone I would rate better than, or at the very least equal to, him. Cech, Van Der Sar, Reina, Given, Lehmann, Jääskeläinen, Cudicini even?

Brad friedel is better than most of those by a long way!

mike65

Another pointless thread.

Mike.

patmac

Breaking news (very old sorry):
Saddam Hussein has been found guilty of war crimes and has been sentenced to death by firing squad. The Court has granted his last request which was to name his own firing squad. Mr. Hussein chose Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher from 12 yards.

Playboy

PHB wrote:

meh, Paul Scholes was more technically gifted than Gazza, and a better player to boot.

Gazza had his personal problems but he was still twice the player that Scholes could even dream of being. Scholes was hardworking and consistently good for United, he scored some great goals and was a great player. Gazza was a genius and the best in the world on his day.

PHB

Gazza had his personal problems but he was still twice the player that Scholes could even dream of being. Scholes was hardworking and consistently good for United, he scored some great goals and was a great player. Gazza was a genius and the best in the world on his day.

Personally I believe that's bull****.
Gazza was good, but nowhere near the best in his world, and he never achieved it. It's like saying Rooney is the best in the World, just because he shows a hell of a lot of potential and is pretty good now.
It's easy to overrate failed potential.

WhiteWashMan

PHB wrote:

Personally I believe that's bull****.
Gazza was good, but nowhere near the best in his world, and he never achieved it. It's like saying Rooney is the best in the World, just because he shows a hell of a lot of potential and is pretty good now.
It's easy to overrate failed potential.

gazza was an incredible player. youre just too young to remember him in his hayday.

Pigman II

He was definetly the star of WC90 for me anyway. Had an amazing season for Spurs the after that too (if you don't his last game of course).

zAbbo

Gazza was amazing, pure talent.

I doubt he has many regrets in his career. A legend.

Anyone remember watching Gazza's Soccer School on a Saturday morning? that and Gazzeta Football Italia.

Pigman II

zabbo wrote:

Anyone remember watching Gazza's Soccer School on a Saturday morning?

Yeah I remember that. It was filmed inside Wembley in summer and Gazza was teaching 10 year old kids how knock 30 yard free-kicks into the top-corner. Had to laugh as most of them could barely kick a ball 30yards never mind put the amount of swerve and dip he could do.

They did "Ryan Giggs" version later on. Didn't really compare considering Giggs was as dull as dishwater, the weather was dreary and Wembley was replaced as venue some crumbling 3rd division ground.

therecklessone

WhiteWashMan wrote:

but the best player in the world is ronaldinho.

but apprently he was crap in this world cup.

personally, i saw someone who held the ball up, never gave it away, his passes always found their mark, and his through balls were sublime.

but he didnt do enough little shimmies, so he hasnt performed.

As of last Sunday morning (not including France-Brazil QF) Ronaldinho had the 2nd highest number of stray passes in the tournament (59, one behind his Barca team mate Marquez). Its a rather bare statistic, I'd prefer a % TBH.

Thats according to last Sunday's Observer.

therecklessone

WhiteWashMan wrote:

gazza was an incredible player. youre just too young to remember him in his hayday.

QFT.

Nalz

WhiteWashMan wrote:

gazza was an incredible player. youre just too young to remember him in his hayday.

Great player, but ya cant really compare him as it was 16-20 years ago when he was in his hayday....totally different game now, in terms of pace and fitness. the game has changed considerably even though he his fresh in our memories.

A Dub in Glasgo

zabbo wrote:

I doubt he has many regrets in his career. A legend.

.

Are you serious? he was a good player but also a total plank

who can forget his flute playing antics, his world class wife beating antics and his general idiotness. I would say he would have loads of regrets

Little-Devil

The term "World Class" is so over used its being coming a joke. I blame the english media who print or say he's world class every other day;

My world class;

Alessandra Nesta
Cannavaro
Claude Makelele
Edwin Van der Sar
Gianluigi Buffon
Henirk Larrson
Hernan Crespo
Iker Casillas
Kaka
Lilian Thuram
Lucio
Patrick Vieira
Pavel Nedved
Rafael Marquez
Raúl
Ricardo Carvalho
Roberta Ayala
Ronaldo ( Brazillian )
Roy keane
Steven Gerrard
Thierry Henry
Van Nielstrooy
William Gallas
Xavi
Zinedine Zidane

I know that everyone wont agree with my selection and i know ive proabably left a few out as well. I have to say i think that Juan Roman Riquelme is over rated, can pick a pass and Ronaldinho i think is over rated as well, the world cup proved that. He is a show pony playing for the cameras i think.

Who would you class as world class

cardshark202

I agree with PHB. Paul Scholes at his best is/was one of the best midfielders in the world, Gazza was great and all but Scholes had so much more. I remember someone telling me once that they thought lampard was better than scholesy. Lampard looks good with chelsea because makelele makes him look good.

cardshark202

Little-Devil wrote:

The term "World Class" is so over used its being coming a joke. I blame the english media who print or say he's world class every other day;

My world class;

Alessandra Nesta
Cannavaro
Claude Makelele
David Villa
Edwin Van der Sar
Fernando Torres
Gianluigi Buffon
Henirk Larrson
Hernan Crespo
Iker Casillas
Kaka
Lilian Thuram
Lucio
Patrick Vieira
Pavel Nedved
Rafael Marquez
Raúl
Ricardo Carvalho
Roberta Ayala
Ronaldo ( Brazillian )
Roy keane
Steven Gerrard
Thierry Henry
Van Nielstrooy
William Gallas
Willy Sagnol
Xavi
Zinedine Zidane

I know that everyone wont agree with my selection and i know ive proabably left a few out as well. I have to say i think that Juan Roman Riquelme is over rated, can pick a pass and Ronaldinho i think is over rated as well, the world cup proved that. He is a show pony playing for the cameras i think.

Who would you class as world class

Since when did villa and torres become world class. maybe in the future but villa has only had one good season and torres is still young. Marquez is a very good player but not world class, and carvalho the same. I put gerrard in bold because i dont like him.:p

Mr. Presentable

Trilla wrote:

Great player, but ya cant really compare him as it was 16-20 years ago when he was in his hayday....totally different game now, in terms of pace and fitness. the game has changed considerably even though he his fresh in our memories.

You can only play in the era you're born in. Pace and fitness (your terms) are all a player is measured by now in the EPL, which is why they were poor in the WC. Gazza, for all his shortcomings (I believe he was the greatest waster ever on a football field ), had a prodigious talent not in evidence in the English game today.

And for those who say Scholes was a better footballer, on what level? As a pro, without a doubt. As a talent, for shame on you, he was a journeyman in comparison.

Mr. Presentable

Little-Devil wrote:

The term "World Class" is so over used its being coming a joke. I blame the english media who print or say he's world class every other day;

My world class;

Alessandra Nesta
Cannavaro
Claude Makelele
Edwin Van der Sar
Gianluigi Buffon
Henirk Larrson
Hernan Crespo
Iker Casillas
Kaka
Lilian Thuram
Lucio
Patrick Vieira
Pavel Nedved
Rafael Marquez
Raúl
Ricardo Carvalho
Roberta Ayala
Ronaldo ( Brazillian )
Roy keane
Steven Gerrard
Thierry Henry
Van Nielstrooy
William Gallas
Xavi
Zinedine Zidane

I know that everyone wont agree with my selection and i know ive proabably left a few out as well. I have to say i think that Juan Roman Riquelme is over rated, can pick a pass and Ronaldinho i think is over rated as well, the world cup proved that. He is a show pony playing for the cameras i think.

Who would you class as world class

If I can refer you to this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054955636

I saw a former pro in the last few days on tv, who said in his opinion there have only ever been a handful of "world class players". He named Pele, Best, Maradona, I don't remember who it was. But no doubt someone will remind me.....He defined a WCP as one who could change a game and carry a team on his own.

Nalz

cardshark202 wrote:

Since when did villa and torres become world class. maybe in the future but villa has only had one good season and torres is still young. Marquez is a very good player but not world class, and carvalho the same. I put gerrard in bold because i dont like him.:p

Near enoug 100% agreed with you CardShark...with the minor exception of Carvalho. I think he is very close to world class. There is no way Marquez is a world class player - No WAY!! Torres might improve, Villa is just over average player.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Nalz

ziggy67 wrote:

I don't think any English players are world class & i include Rooney in that.

Rooney still has to prove himself in the CL & Internationally on a consistent basis.

I think he will go on to do this but he isn't there yet.

yep but in two years time John Terry and Wayne Rooney will be the acts to follow. John Terry is still relitively young, and I think Paul Robinson is a very good keeper. I draw the line there, unless Rio remembers how to play football and Aaron Lennon comes on a bit

Lex Luthor

Michael Owen is World Class. He has proven it on the domestic, european & international front. He is plagued by injury at the moment, but a fully fit MO is definitely WC.

As for the whole debate on whether the english players are world class or not. Just because they do poorly at the WC doesn't mean they are not world class. Would you say the Portugal team are World class then?

WhiteWashMan

cardshark202 wrote:

I agree with PHB. Paul Scholes at his best is/was one of the best midfielders in the world, Gazza was great and all but Scholes had so much more. I remember someone telling me once that they thought lampard was better than scholesy. Lampard looks good with chelsea because makelele makes him look good.

roy keane made scholes look good.

this could go around in ages.

i think a much better debate wuld be 'do we expect too much out of players', becuase it seems there is nothing but constant whinging from people that players dont live up to the hype, that players dont perform etc etc etc.

personally ive seen zidane play well in 2 maybe 3 games. thats half the games france have played. is 'that' world class?


interesting stat on ronaldinho there reckless. i didnt see all of brazils games, i was commenting only on the ones i saw, and i thought he was still one of the best palyers on the pitch without the fancy footwork.

therecklessone

WhiteWashMan wrote:

interesting stat on ronaldinho there reckless. i didnt see all of brazils games, i was commenting only on the ones i saw, and i thought he was still one of the best palyers on the pitch without the fancy footwork.

Not trying to discount what you thought mate, like I said, I'd much prefer a % pass completion stat rather than the bare "stray passes".

Pigman II

WhiteWashMan wrote:

personally ive seen zidane play well in 2 maybe 3 games. thats half the games france have played. is 'that' world class?

It is when they are the knockout games. Give me a guy who is muck in the 3 group games (he only played 2 btw) and then can actually deliver when the competition starts in ernest.

Too many 'world class' players out there flattering to decieve by running rings around the Coconut Islands and then found wanting when they have to play against a real team.

PHB

roy keane made scholes look good.

Roy Keane made everyone look good.

As a talent, for shame on you, he was a journeyman in comparison.

He was the playmaker for one of the best sides England ever had, everything went through him, all of the play, and he and Keane made one of the best midfield teams I'll ever see.
It's easy to forget him because he is the perfect football player for fans. Doesn't demand huge wages, no agent, loyal, and a simple quiet man, who plays football for a living. Just cause he isn't a failed genius, doens't mean he isn't a genius.

WhiteWashMan

Pigman II wrote:

It is when they are the knockout games. .

so you can only be a world class player if you play in your countries knock out games.

that means they can be crap or not picked all through the qualifiers for major tournaments?
i dont think thats applicable tbh.

PHB wrote:

and he and Keane

i dont disagree with you.

but i think its more important to be able to play with your team mates than to be the most technically gifted player in the world. for me thats not world class. thats just being technically gifted.
hell, there are people that can do 50 million keepy-uppies on their little toe that are technically gifted, but they are not world class players.

people complain that makele makes lampard look good. they play very very very well together. consistantly. and individually they are both super players as well.

thats why the better managers dont just run out and buy the most expensive players around (unless youre at chelski) they buy players that fit with the team and are the best they can get for the tactics and formations they play.

these individual comparrisons are silly.

look at madrid. team full of world class players. they should winthe world cup! they cant win anything. how many trophies have the won in the last 5 years? i dont know off the top of my head, but i think theyre pretty baron in the trophy room for the last 3 years,. arent they?

technically gifted does not equal world class, but its certainly important.
hell, you get a bunch of great grafters, and you have leicster under MON, or blackburn of today, or even god forbid, even more talentless, but grafting players of sunderland. not an ounce of skill between them.

its all about being an all round player.

Pigman II

WhiteWashMan wrote:

so you can only be a world class player if you play in your countries knock out games.

No. It means that a truly World Class player will be able to excel at that level should the opportunity to play in said games arise.

that means they can be crap or not picked all through the qualifiers for major tournaments?
i dont think thats applicable tbh.

It doesn't mean they can (or should). It means they should not be discounted as WC purely because they have lesser performances against mediocre opposition in games of middling importance.

Little-Devil

Little-Devil wrote:

The term "World Class" is so over used its being coming a joke. I blame the english media who print or say he's world other day. Steven Gerrard has proven over the last 2years what a player he is and i felt sorry for him in the world cup, he just can't play along side lampard as he carry's him.

My world class;

Alessandra Nesta
Cannavaro
Claude Makelele
Edwin Van der Sar
Gianluigi Buffon
Iker Casillas
Lilian Thuram
Patrick Vieira
Pavel Nedved
Raúl
Roberta Ayala
Ronaldo ( Brazil )
Roy keane
Steven Gerrard
Thierry Henry
Figo
Van Nielstrooy
Zinedine Zidane

I know that everyone wont agree with my selection and i know ive proabably left a few out as well. I have to say i think that Juan Roman Riquelme is over rated, can pick a pass and Ronaldinho i think is over rated as well, the world cup proved that. He is a show pony playing for the cameras i think.

Who would you class as world class

Ok, my world class selection was to really see if people agree and as i thought rightly so, David Villa and Fernando Torres still have to prove themselfe and i also added a few others just to see what you may think, so here is my real list. They have all proven be BIG players at the clubs they have played for and won major honours with the clubs they have all played for and made a difference. I know people will say paul scholes is not, but he has probably being one of best to ever play for manu in my view. I knowed he played along keane but even when keane didn't play he was class and still out. ( yes i am a manu fan )

Alessandra Nesta
Cannavaro
Claude Makelele
Edwin Van der Sar
Gianluigi Buffon
Iker Casillas
Lilian Thuram
Patrick Vieira
Pavel Nedved
Raúl
Roberta Ayala
Ronaldo ( Brazil )
Roy keane
Paul Scholes
Steven Gerrard
Thierry Henry
Figo
Van Nielstrooy
Zinedine Zidane

Rikand

Paulo Maldini

World class, even at 38 years of age

Little-Devil

Yes, he is world class, im sure there are more as well

Big Chief

england always over rate themselfs and come to a bitter dissapointment when reality sets in and everytime they will look for a scapegoat as to 'why they arent #1 like they thought they were..'

Think of all the times they go out on competitions, its never because 'they were a better side' its always been laid to blame on 1 specific person who has to bear the burden of it all. Stuart pearce, david beckham, c.ronaldo, maradonna.. Its never because they are just a crapper side or the other team was better as they dont like to believe that they 'arent the best' when by all evidence they arent. Maybe they know it deep down and just dont want to admit it. Is usually the reason behind the english fans violence aswell, except from the usual 'thugs' that just do it randomly.. fair play for not starting a kick up this year, Or atleast not doing it in full public across the tabloids.

they won a world cup on home turf, go them.. nations always perform alot better on home turn because they have a full nation behind them and i think nothing of there 66 win what so ever as they have never proved it on a foreign turn like other world class teams have.

WhiteWashMan

Big Chief wrote:

england always over rate themselfs and come to a bitter dissapointment when reality sets in and everytime they will look for a scapegoat as to 'why they arent #1 like they thought they were..'

Think of all the times they go out on competitions, its never because 'they were a better side' its always been laid to blame on 1 specific person who has to bear the burden of it all. Stuart pearce, david beckham, c.ronaldo, maradonna.. Its never because they are just a crapper side or the other team was better as they dont like to believe that they 'arent the best' when by all evidence they arent. Maybe they know it deep down and just dont want to admit it. Is usually the reason behind the english fans violence aswell, except from the usual 'thugs' that just do it randomly.. fair play for not starting a kick up this year, Or atleast not doing it in full public across the tabloids.

they won a world cup on home turf, go them.. nations always perform alot better on home turn because they have a full nation behind them and i think nothing of there 66 win what so ever as they have never proved it on a foreign turn like other world class teams have.

*boggle*


so i guess you feel the same about the brazilians, who believed themselves best in the world?

or is it just that they are not english?

sometimes i actually wonder if people bother looking at what theyve read and think to themselves 'you know, this does look like utter rubbish now that i have it in writing before me'.

Big Chief

I learned a long time ago not to listen to your stir up's WWM, but nice try none the less.

The difference between england and brazil is that brazil have proved themselves time and time again, so they got put out after a dissapointing world cup. It wasnt about thinking your number 1 either if you had read, it was about over rating themselfes which they do on a consistant basis without anything to back it up except a league filled with foreigners.

I have no problem with England or with English players, obnoxious people that over rate there national side and then make a mockery and a scape goat because they went out time and time again do however.

soupie

Brazil dont need to over hype themselves the rest of the world do it for them.

England on the other hand hype themsleves up only to scramble for excuses when they fail. There has only ever been one world cup where England have not found a scape goat and that was 1966. They have players who can become world class but their not their yet. The last time England had a real WC player was Alan Shearer. Rooney will join him as probably will Gerrard but not convinced about anyone else.