As someone who used to work for a bookies...

ecksor

DOLEMAN wrote:

No, if you read my posts you will see my evidence is from my time working in a bookie - I could see people are always (overall) down money!

Your sole evidence that the other poster you accused of being delusional wasn't making money I mean.

ecksor

even though I am quite a cautious and "smart" gambler.

Football is so much more fun with a few quid on it.

Hm, recreational gambling and "smart" gambling don't seem compatible to me.

DOLEMAN

ecksor wrote:

Your sole evidence that the other poster you accused of being delusional wasn't making money I mean.

Well, everyone I spoke to during my time in the bookie told me they are breaking even or up money. Without exception, they were all down money. Gambling tricks people (or people trick themselves) into believing they are making money.

DOLEMAN

ecksor wrote:

Hm, recreational gambling and "smart" gambling don't seem compatible to me.

Why are you taking this topic so personally?

Do you gamble?

fade2black

DOLEMAN wrote:

Why are you taking this topic so personally?

Do you gamble?

The very nature of your first post in this topic dictated a serios tone so you can't blame anyone for taking it seriously.

ecksor

DOLEMAN wrote:

Well, everyone I spoke to during my time in the bookie told me they are breaking even or up money. Without exception, they were all down money. Gambling tricks people (or people trick themselves) into believing they are making money.

You're not even paying attention here. Do you or do you not remember the post above where you dismissed a poster's claim that he made money from sports gambling?

DOLEMAN wrote:

Why are you taking this topic so personally?

I'm not taking this personally. I'm merely finding your inconsistant arguments problematic.

Do you gamble?

Yes, but not in a way that's relevant to this discussion.

DOLEMAN

ecksor wrote:

You're not even paying attention here.

?

ecksor wrote:

Do you or do you not remember the post above where you dismissed a poster's claim that he made money from sports gambling?

Yes, because the evidence is overwhelmingly in my favor. As I have stated many times, everyone thinks they make money from gambling. Yes, I accept he could be an exception, but it is highly unlikely.

ecksor wrote:

I'm not taking this personally. I'm merely finding your inconsistant arguments problematic.

They're not inconsistant... I like to throw a few quid of football games. I research the teams before the game to see what would be the smartest bet to make. I then watch the game, enjoying it very much because it's more exciting to see was I right or wrong.

If you believe you can't have fun gambling while taking your gambilng decisions seriously, you need to quit gambling!

ecksor wrote:

Yes, but not in a way that's relevant to this discussion.

You think poker isn't gambling? Now we're getting somewhere...

ecksor

DOLEMAN wrote:

You think poker isn't gambling? Now we're getting somewhere...

Your question makes no sense.

DOLEMAN

ecksor wrote:

Your question makes no sense.

Your reply makes no sense!

Poker IS gambling. When you sit down at the table with €100, you don't know (you only hope) you'll be up money at the end of the night. You may be down money. That is gambling...

Yes, long term I understand and appreciate a good poker player has the odds in his favor, but it's still gambling...

Note: in this topic, I am talking about betting on horses/football etc. NOT poker.

But maybe I've misunderstood your response...

ecksor

DOLEMAN wrote:

Poker IS gambling. When you sit down at the table with €100, you don't know (you only hope) you'll be up money at the end of the night. You may be down money. That is gambling...

I understand that. You asked me if I gamble. I said I did. You obviously worked out that I meant poker. What's the confusion here?

Note: in this topic, I am talking about betting on horses/football etc. NOT poker.

But maybe I've misunderstood your response...

Gosh, do you think maybe that's why I said my gambling wasn't relevant to this discussion?

Honestly, you're definitely not paying attention to this thread.

scojones

I think the flaws in what doleman is saying have been pointed out but I have to say my piece.

Of course gamblers lose money, if they didn't there would be no bookies around. I know a load of gamblers who are down money but insist they are just about even or are in profit. These people are fools, and they are a majority, but to make a generalisation against all gamblers saying that 0.00001% are making a living is ridiculous. So, you worked in paddypowers and saw the mug gamblers and because of that you think every gambler is a mug? Come off it man.

DOLEMAN

ecksor wrote:

I understand that. You asked me if I gamble. I said I did. You obviously worked out that I meant poker. What's the confusion here?

No confusion. A friend of mine told me he has played you in poker. Assumed that was your demon...

sjones wrote:

These people are fools, and they are a majority, but to make a generalisation against all gamblers saying that 0.00001% are making a living is ridiculous. So, you worked in paddypowers and saw the mug gamblers and because of that you think every gambler is a mug? Come off it man.

You agree the majority of people lose money gambling... but for some reason boards.ie users are exempt?

Hobbes

DOLEMAN wrote:

Poker IS gambling.

It depends. If your hopeless at Poker (like myself) then yes it is gambling. If on the other hand your a professional at the game then no it isn't.

My uncle used to own a load of gambling places when I was growing up (which is why we had it drummed into us never to gamble). Basically the house would have something like for example a 2:1 win ratio for the customer. This mean for every $2 they spent they would win $1. Of course this isn't constant so it is possible if you knew what you were doing you could come out ahead but over time you lost out.

There are people who can routinely win again and again. They are a low percentage of people (certainly not to the level you had). I do not know if Paddypower close accounts or not of frequent winners, but it is quite normal to be refused entry to a gambling casino if your considered to be one of these people.

The house will always change the game so it is in thier favour. Blackjack/Rolette for example were not initially gambling (if you knew the system you could always win) but were changed by casinos to stop this from happening.

scojones

DOLEMAN wrote:

You agree the majority of people lose money gambling... but for some reason boards.ie users are exempt?

Seriously, where did I say anything about boards.ie users? I said, making a generalisation which states that nobody makes money from gambling is ridiculous. Please pay attention or at least make an attempt to back up what you're saying.

ecksor

DOLEMAN wrote:

No confusion. A friend of mine told me he has played you in poker. Assumed that was your demon...

You ask me if I gamble. I say yes (meaning my poker playing) and you ask me if I think poker isn't gambling? You definitely got confused there.

I don't bet on sports (with the exception of approximately €100 I deposited on paddypower about 3 years ago for a laugh) because I don't know enough about it. I keep meaning to do a bit of book learning and experiment with it, but that hasn't happened yet.

Perhaps I'm overly simplistic, but I associate "serious gambling" with being able to correctly assess if you have an edge through specialised knowledge of the thing being wagered upon. When you say you "ignore the odds" and comment upon the irony of random picks choosing the world cup finalists I don't really believe that's your approach to the subject.

DOLEMAN

ecksor wrote:

Perhaps I'm overly simplistic, but I associate "serious gambling" with being able to correctly assess if you have an edge through specialised knowledge of the thing being wagered upon.

I agree.

ecksor wrote:

When you say you "ignore the odds" and comment upon the irony of random picks choosing the world cup finalists I don't really believe that's your approach to the subject.

? Why?

ecksor

Hobbes wrote:

It depends. If your hopeless at Poker (like myself) then yes it is gambling. If on the other hand your a professional at the game then no it isn't.

I disagree with this. I believe that poker is gambling irrespective of the size of your edge or your ability to manage a bankroll etc.

Being a professional is irrelevant. I could theoretically sit into soft games for small stakes where my edge is larger than a professional would have in a higher stakes game even though my knowledge and skill do not compare to the profesionals.

Anyway, this was done to death recently on the poker forum: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054943722

DOLEMAN

sjones wrote:

Seriously, where did I say anything about boards.ie users? I said, making a generalisation which states that nobody makes money from gambling is ridiculous. Please pay attention or at least make an attempt to back up what you're saying.

I never said nobody makes money from gambling!

Take some of your own advice about paying attention...

ecksor

DOLEMAN wrote:

? Why?

Because the odds are central to determining your edge. Because focusing on the results of the world cup have nothing to do with whether or not a bet was good or not in hindsight.

There's a post on this thread by Raskolnikov that explains this very well.

scojones

DOLEMAN wrote:

I never said nobody makes money from gambling!

Take some of your own advice about paying attention...

Oh yeah that's right, you said:

DOLEMAN wrote:

About 0.0001% of customers make money. Everyone else is down money.

Care to show me the research you did which led to this statistic? I don't ever remember being interviewed.

DOLEMAN

sjones wrote:

Care to show me the research you did which led to this statistic? I don't ever remember being interviewed.

I worked for PP. I was surprised whenever I saw an account in profit. It was that rare.

Yes, you may be one of the lucky ones. I find it unlikely though.

DOLEMAN

ecksor wrote:

Because the odds are central to determining your edge. Because focusing on the results of the world cup have nothing to do with whether or not a bet was good or not in hindsight.

There's a post on this thread by Raskolnikov that explains this very well.

Well, I rarely consider the odds (I do shop around for the best odds though.) I find odds can be blinding... Generally I figure out what is most likely to happen (a favorite of mine is betting on the card index) and bet on that...

scojones

DOLEMAN wrote:

I worked for PP.

I know, you've already told me and it's in the topic of this thread.

DOLEMAN wrote:

I was surprised whenever I saw an account in profit. It was that rare.

Ok, so you made the percentage up then? Now, their accounts with PP may show loss, but they might be up in their accounts with other bookies. You didn't think of that though. Infact, I'd say there's a .000001% chance that you thought your statements through before making them.

DOLEMAN wrote:

Yes, you may be one of the lucky ones. I find it unlikely though.

You tell me. Go check my strike rate on the Horse Racing forum. If you were to put 10 euro on every selection I have posted there, would you be in profit?

masterK

Doleman, your agruments have been completely flawed and inconsistent from the very start of this thread, surely you can see how inaccurate some of your statements have been.

We all know that the majority of gamblers lose, that's common knowldedge, as has been previously mentioned on this thread gambling is about finding an edge in your specialised domain, the average betting shop punter has no idea of this concept and will therefore lose.

However there are a lot of people who do make money from gambling, as you made reference to boards.ie I could easily name quite a few posters who make money from gambling and have demonstrated this many times. Although you were being smart when you mentioned boards.ie you had point, boards users do have an edge when it comes to gambling, they have the greatest gambling resource in the world at their fingertips, it's called the Internet.

Did it ever occur to you that PP and other bookies probably don't have the too many members of the higher quality gamblers on their books? Why not, well because successful gamblers are smart, and no smart gambler would be betting with a bookmaker when they can get better odds on Betfair.

DOLEMAN

So they use their PP account to lose but their other bookie accounts to win? And you say I am talking nonsense??? WTF...

sjones, I'm not trying to be offensive, but it's just that every always said "I make money!" yet their account was always in a loss. That is the point of this topic. Gambling fools people.

But yes, I accept you may be in the minority. But I doubt it's the case!

The .0001%. Yes, it was plucked from my ass. It's fair to say that out of every 1000 customers, 1 or 2 would be making money. But then their accounts would be closed... That's the thing. You'd know if you were making a profit, because profit making accounts are closed...

DOLEMAN

masterK wrote:

Did it ever occur to you that PP and other bookies probably don't have the too many members of the higher quality gamblers on their books? Why not, well because successful gamblers are smart, and no smart gambler would be betting with a bookmaker when they can get better odds on Betfair.

Yes, completely fair point. I can only talk about my experiences with PP. But are boards.ie users really so abnormal that they don't use PP?

Chucky the tree

DOLEMAN wrote:

I worked for PP. I was surprised whenever I saw an account in profit. It was that rare.
.

No wonder you enver saw an account in the porfit considering all the accoutns that make a profit are closed.;)

Mezcita

masterK wrote:

Doleman, your agruments have been completely flawed and inconsistent from the very start of this thread, surely you can see how inaccurate some of your statements have been.

We all know that the majority of gamblers lose, that's common knowldedge, as has been previously mentioned on this thread gambling is about finding an edge in your specialised domain, the average betting shop punter has no idea of this concept and will therefore lose.

However there are a lot of people who do make money from gambling, as you made reference to boards.ie I could easily name quite a few posters who make money from gambling and have demonstrated this many times. Although you were being smart when you mentioned boards.ie you had point, boards users do have an edge when it comes to gambling, they have the greatest gambling resource in the world at their fingertips, it's called the Internet.

Did it ever occur to you that PP and other bookies probably don't have the too many members of the higher quality gamblers on their books? Why not, well because successful gamblers are smart, and no smart gambler would be betting with a bookmaker when they can get better odds on Betfair.

Totally agree with this. Serious gamblers shop around for the best odds rather than just sticking with one bookie. The betting exchanges frequently offer better odds than the likes of PaddyPower.

omahony99

DOLEMAN wrote:

About 0.0001% of customers make money. Everyone else is down money.

Only one in a million betting customers make money? Pretend there's one million gamblers in Ireland (even thought there's obviously way less) you're saying only one gambler in the whole of Ireland has made a profit in gambling?

scojones

DOLEMAN wrote:

sjones, I'm not trying to be offensive, but it's just that every always said "I make money!" yet their account was always in a loss. That is the point of this topic. Gambling fools people.

But yes, I accept you may be in the minority. But I doubt it's the case!

You say you're not trying to be offensive, but I find what you just said there highly offensive. You don't know me, or anything about me, and you easily label me as a losing gambler. Making presumptions like this just proves my point a little more. You have no idea what you are talking about.

omahony99 wrote:

Only one in a million betting customers make money? Pretend there's one million gamblers in Ireland (even thought there's obviously way less) you're saying only one gambler in the whole of Ireland has made a profit in gambling?

Exactly. I asked for the research which led to his figure but he failed to provide it. He made up the figure, and he is talking out of his rear end. DOLEMAN's arguments are flawed, badly flawed and several posters on here have pointed this out already.