As someone who used to work for a bookies...

Bateman

DOLEMAN wrote:

So they use their PP account to lose but their other bookie accounts to win?

Precisely. I use betfair for big singles, and I use PP for accumulators, which is a facility that the exchange doesn't offer.

My singles on betfair are my bread and butter, PP is for fun-bets and accas. What is so difficult to understand there?

You don't seem to have the greatest of a grasp on the bigger picture here.

Also, care to explain the comment about gamblers who don't use PP being classed as "abnormal"?

Nalced_irl

Hmmmm, Doleman, can i ask why you left PP or were you fired and also how long have you worked for bookies overall? Firstly, most of what you have said so far is complete bs and you sound like a bitter ex-employee! You are suggesting that if a person is up on their account, it is closed as soon as it is spotted and is simply guessed that they work in the trade?? You and i both know thats absolute crap. If that was true, no PR department could ever cover it up. Most people do not bet with a view to making money and so of course will be down. However, people who take it seriously, choose their bets carefully and stay disciplined to their points structure are invariably up money and there are plenty of them around. I have 3 sportsbetting accounts and in 2 i am up money. In 1 i am only up a small amount but 1 is big enough and the one thats down is one i use rarely enough. Are any of them closed? No. You should really get your facts straight before starting threads like this. Have you heard of a neat little tool on all betting sites called "Account History"? Its very easy to check if you are up or down and the only people who are "tricked" into thinking they are up are the people who want to lie about it. They know well they are down if that is the case, but your random incorrect 1 in a million ect facts that you are plucking out of the air are absolute rubbish.

finnpark

DOLEMAN wrote:

About 0.0001% of customers make money. Everyone else is down money.

Everyone I used to speak to used to say they were up money or were breaking even, but the reality is they were always down.

If you don't believe me, ring Paddy Power customer service and ask them are you overall in a profit or a loss (the figure is on their screen - they don't need to do any maths.)

If you couldn't be arsed ringing them but "know" you are making a profit, here's something which might surprise you. Is your Paddy Power account still open? If it is, you are making a loss. Paddy Power close winning accounts. They assume it is an insider (in the horse industry etc.) as people do not make money from gambling.

Think about it...

Gambling is fun, but don't fool yourself into thinking it is extra income for yourself...

Yes, the gambling industry pisses me off. I hate the way the government removed all taxes (makes no sense whatsoever) and I hate the way it preys on the weak side of human nature...

Im up a lot with bookmakers and Betfair in particular.

Yes, Paddypower limited my EW bets to just £25 each way max, needless to say I don't back with them any more. No-one should be backing with PP, they are a joke in my opinion.

William Hill are a top bookie.

Of course very few people make a lot of money from betting, its fools that keep the industry gong.

finnpark

sjones wrote:

You tell me. Go check my strike rate on the Horse Racing forum.

:rolleyes: Check Post 9 at http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054904026 .

Doleman: You are fighting a losing battle with these in my opinion. They are not quite the most intelligent lot in the country.

You are spot on about Paddypower though. I agree 100% with what you say. I actually posted something similar myself and got the same response.

<SNIP>

Good Luck and the best advice is to SHOP AROUND FOR THE BEST PRICE - IT MAKES A GIGANTIC DIFFERENCE. www.oddschecker.com .

scojones

finnpark wrote:

:rolleyes: Check Post 9 at http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054904026 .

Doleman: You are fighting a losing battle with these in my opinion. They are not quite the most intelligent lot in the country.

You are spot on about Paddypower though. I agree 100% with what you say. I actually posted something similar myself and got the same response.

Nice. I don't mean to be beating my own drum, but how have I done since Cheltenham finn? In fact, how have I done overall is the point I'm making, but you failed to pick up on that. I had a disasterous Cheltenham, as did most people. It's my overall performance I was getting at, which you knew but you said you'd take a cheap shot at me anyway. The figures speak for themselves, I don't have to back anything up, it's all there.

I'm not even going to debate this with you because you don't have an open mind, and you fail to understand other people's opinions which differ from your own. You've just mad a slanderous remark about all of boards.ie users with your reply, something that should not be taken lightly.

finnpark

sjones wrote:

Nice. I don't mean to be beating my own drum, but how have I done since Cheltenham finn? In fact, how have I done overall is the point I'm making, but you failed to pick up on that. I had a disasterous Cheltenham, as did most people. It's my overall performance I was getting at, which you knew but you said you'd take a cheap shot at me anyway. The figures speak for themselves, I don't have to back anything up, it's all there.

I'm not even going to debate this with you because you don't have an open mind, and you fail to understand other people's opinions which differ from your own. You've just mad a slanderous remark about all of boards.ie users with your reply, something that should not be taken lightly.

I don't really care how you done to be honest but I just wanted to point out that I agree with Doleman and disagree with a number of others . Its a matter of opinion really. I really hope you are doing well though as we are all on the same side of the counter and we should be taking as much off the bookmakers as possible. :cool: Lets not be fooling ourselves though.

ecksor

finnpark wrote:

I don't really care how you done to be honest

So why bring it up?

but I just wanted to point out that I agree with Doleman and disagree with a number of others . Its a matter of opinion really. I really hope you are doing well though as we are all on the same side of the counter and we should be taking as much off the bookmakers as possible. :cool: Lets not be fooling ourselves though.

What exactly do you agree / disagree with? It looks like you've just made another of your typical snide posts for the sake of a personal jab.

Whether individuals are fooling themselves or not is a matter for themselves. Nobody is denying that most gamblers lose. Serious gamblers will keep records. Recreational gamblers will vary in how closely they monitor their profit or loss. If a user comes on here and states that they keep records that show them to be in profit, then there is the possibility that they are inaccurate, dishonest or merely experiencing some positive variance, but it's fallacious to argue that they are definitely not in profit merely because DOLEMAN doesn't believe anyone is in profit. Also, he claims that this is based upon his own "serious" gambling which is showing a loss, but his own posts reveal that he doesn't know what a winning bet is let alone how to identify one so I don't accept that his losses are at all relevant to that point. As far as his overall message goes, fine, most punters lose. That shouldn't be news to anyone. You claim that you are in profit? Would you appreciate him asserting that you are a liar or a fool just because he doesn't believe you are capable of being in profit?

This forum is for gambling discussion and gambling for profit or gambling for recreation are both valid motivations for gambling IMO. A general discussion of the fact that punters usually lose is fine and on-topic. Preaching, pulling figures out of one's arse and generally talking a lot of nonsense when challenged are going to get people's backs up and that is what DOLEMAN has repeatedly done on this thread.

finnpark

ecksor wrote:

So why bring it up?

Because he posted a thread contradicting a previous thread he wrote himself.

ecksor wrote:

What exactly do you agree / disagree with?

That people should not back with Paddypower.

ecksor wrote:

It looks like you've just made another of your typical snide posts for the sake of a personal jab.

Maybe you and sjones are good buddies...no offense was intended;) But I say it how I see it. Im not going to hold back just in case someone is easily offended.

ecksor wrote:

Whether individuals are fooling themselves or not is a matter for themselves. Nobody is denying that most gamblers lose. Serious gamblers will keep records. Recreational gamblers will vary in how closely they monitor their profit or loss. If a user comes on here and states that they keep records that show them to be in profit, then there is the possibility that they are inaccurate, dishonest or merely experiencing some positive variance, but it's fallacious to argue that they are definitely not in profit merely because DOLEMAN doesn't believe anyone is in profit. Also, he claims that this is based upon his own "serious" gambling which is showing a loss, but his own posts reveal that he doesn't know what a winning bet is let alone how to identify one so I don't accept that his losses are at all relevant to that point.

Agree with most of that.

ecksor wrote:

As far as his overall message goes, fine, most punters lose. That shouldn't be news to anyone. You claim that you are in profit? Would you appreciate him asserting that you are a liar or a fool just because he doesn't believe you are capable of being in profit?

Well, its just Im of the opinion that anyone who gambles and loses money is a fool. If your losing money you should stop. It is generally a fool's game. I suppose there are those who say its ok to lose money gambling as they have fun. Im not one of those.

ecksor wrote:

This forum is for gambling discussion and gambling for profit or gambling for recreation are both valid motivations for gambling IMO. A general discussion of the fact that punters usually lose is fine and on-topic. Preaching, pulling figures out of one's arse and generally talking a lot of nonsense when challenged are going to get people's backs up and that is what DOLEMAN has repeatedly done on this thread.

Im afraid the figures are quite daunting. The bookmakers are making huge profits and that is a fact. I make a profit but I agree totally with Doleman. And there is no guarantee that I will always make a profit in the future.

One other thing in relation to the infamous Paddypower bookmakers. Did anyone notice how they open their prices at racecourses just 5 minutes before the stat of a race. They don't want to take professional money, all they want is themug's money. Never admit to betting with Paddypower as it means you are making a loss. Thats my opinion.

ecksor

finnpark wrote:

Because he posted a thread contradicting a previous thread he wrote himself.

In which case it's inappropriate to reply to his response so offhandedly. You brought it up so don't dismiss it.

Maybe you and sjones are good buddies...no offense was intended;) But I say it how I see it. Im not going to hold back just in case someone is easily offended.

I don't know the guy. If anything he dislikes me based on his posts regarding me in the past, but I suspect he is mostly indifferent towards me. Either way we're not going to get too emotionally wrapped up in each other's posts or how we're treated methinks.

I don't want you to hold back because someone is easily offended. I just don't want you to post at all if your entire purpose is to offend or have a personal dig. In case my motives are not clear, I'm moderating this forum for the time being.

Im afraid the figures are quite daunting. The bookmakers are making huge profits and that is a fact.

Nobody here is saying different. I don't think you're addressing what I'm saying here.

Do you realise that apart from your sentence "That people should not back with Paddypower." everything you said failed to answer the questions that you quoted from my post? That is noise.

finnpark

Fair enough Mod;) .

By the way I really think people should shop around for the best odds at http://www.oddschecker.com for example.

ecksor

Recommendations like that are always good. The links thread stickied at the top of the forum would be a nice place to post a link and a blurb about it.

fade2black

Don't think the link to his paysite should remain though.

ecksor

Unfortunately I'm somewhat ignorant of what you're referring to. Care to spell it out for me? Either here or via PM is good. Thanks.

bohsman

ecksor wrote:

Unfortunately I'm somewhat ignorant of what you're referring to. Care to spell it out for me? Either here or via PM is good. Thanks.

See post65 above

ecksor

Aha, ta, I missed the significance of that first time around.

DeVore

This thread is ****ed in ohhh so many ways I can't count.

Doleman, you've beaten this drum before. Take it to your own blog, off boards and scribble whatever you want, then you can get your ass sued all on your own... and we wont be responsible for it.

This thread has mere hours to live.

DeV.

finnpark

Just as a matter of interest does anyone else on this thread work for Paddypower?

Sangre

Regarding a point in the OP. The government 'stupidly' does not tax gambling wins because if it did then you could write off gambling losses.

lost_for_words

Haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if I'm rehashing a repetitive argument. From what I have read I am in agreement with Doleman. I work for a very well know bookie (not PP) and I know of one customer that is making a profit (albeit a very small one). We are a huge turnover shop and I base my opinion only from the perspective of working within the shop setting I can't account for online accounts or phone betting but I can assume it is the same situation.
I am forever hearing people talk about how they are breaking even or are up money when I know for a fact that from their betting in my shop that they are not, in fact some of them are in huge denial about the vast sums of money they have lost. I could give them exact figures as many customers are monitored through a computer system and you could buy yourself a decent 3 bedroom house in a nice area with this kind of money.
However there are some very shrewd gamblers out there that really know their stuff, one i know has never worked a day in his life and literally lives on winnings (and very comfortably).
I still have to agree though that as gambling has become more and more popular and culturally acceptable people live in fear of admitting they are losing money when 99% (imo) simply don't make a profit.

fade2black

One small point. All you people that are working in bookie's are talking about the people that you see in your shops day in and day out. Of course those people are not in profit. I don't know about most of the people on boards and I can only speak for myself but this year I am in profit from horse racing. It's not a huge profit but it's definite profit. I don't back everyday, sometimes I can go a few weeks without backing but I've done okay so far with the ones that I did back.

Cheltenham was different, I made a small loss there (would have been bigger only for 4 winners on the last day). I had a seperate bank and excel file for that though and I didn't include it in my yearly bets. The simple reason being I backed in just about every race at Cheltenham, it was about the enjoyment and like spending money on drink, I didn't expect to get most of it back. People buy drink to enjoy themselves, I backed at every Cheltenham race to enjoy myself. I'm having one, maybe two bets today (one tonight I'm not 100% sure of yet), but they won't be at Newmarket (the quality racing today), but I will be watching it.

lost_for_words

fade2black wrote:

One small point. All you people that are working in bookie's are talking about the people that you see in your shops day in and day out. Of course those people are not in profit. I don't know about most of the people on boards and I can only speak for myself but this year I am in profit from horse racing. It's not a huge profit but it's definite profit. I don't back everyday, sometimes I can go a few weeks without backing but I've done okay so far with the ones that I did back.

Cheltenham was different, I made a small loss there (would have been bigger only for 4 winners on the last day). I had a seperate bank and excel file for that though and I didn't include it in my yearly bets. The simple reason being I backed in just about every race at Cheltenham, it was about the enjoyment and like spending money on drink, I didn't expect to get most of it back. People buy drink to enjoy themselves, I backed at every Cheltenham race to enjoy myself. I'm having one, maybe two bets today (one tonight I'm not 100% sure of yet), but they won't be at Newmarket (the quality racing today), but I will be watching it.

This is why I said i only based my opinion from working within a shop environment.

telecaster

Policies on closing winning accounts vary from one bookie to another. But generally, you will not be allowed win decent sums consistently year in year out by any bookmaker however. As mentioned earlier by another poster, they will restrict your bets.

So...if my regular bet is Eur200 but I'm marked as a 'winning' punter by the bookie, he'll tell me I can have 20 quid and that'll be it. But if I want 200 down, then having 20 is no use to me...so I take my business elsewhere, meanwhile the original bookmaker amends his price now knowing that it is attracting 'shrewd' money.

Doleman would appear to have an axe to grind.

Plenty of punters win consistently, but they must spread their bets around different bookmakers. If you are only betting with one bookie, they you are only doing it for fun. If you are serious about making it pay, you need accounts with every bookmaker to ensure you get the best prices available.

The mug tests are this simple:

1. If you take a price on something and a bigger price is available elsewhere then you are indisputably a mug.

2. If you do not keep a record of all stakes and returns so you can determine your % profit and loss, then you are indisputably a mug.

There is nothing wrong with being a mug - gambling can be a form of entertainment - but dont kid yourself that you are anything other than that until you sort out the two points above.

finnpark

telecaster wrote:

Policies on closing winning accounts vary from one bookie to another. But generally, you will not be allowed win decent sums consistently year in year out by any bookmaker however. As mentioned earlier by another poster, they will restrict your bets.

So...if my regular bet is Eur200 but I'm marked as a 'winning' punter by the bookie, he'll tell me I can have 20 quid and that'll be it. But if I want 200 down, then having 20 is no use to me...so I take my business elsewhere, meanwhile the original bookmaker amends his price now knowing that it is attracting 'shrewd' money.

Doleman would appear to have an axe to grind.

Plenty of punters win consistently, but they must spread their bets around different bookmakers. If you are only betting with one bookie, they you are only doing it for fun. If you are serious about making it pay, you need accounts with every bookmaker to ensure you get the best prices available.

The mug tests are this simple:

1. If you take a price on something and a bigger price is available elsewhere then you are indisputably a mug.

2. If you do not keep a record of all stakes and returns so you can determine your % profit and loss, then you are indisputably a mug.

There is nothing wrong with being a mug - gambling can be a form of entertainment - but dont kid yourself that you are anything other than that until you sort out the two points above.

I couldn't have put it better myself. Excellent points made. You also need disipline. But I do disagree that there are loads of people making money, I think it is way less than 1%.

giggidtygig2

finnpark wrote:

I couldn't have put it better myself. Excellent points made. You also need disipline. But I do disagree that there are loads of people making money, I think it is way less than 1%.

If there were loads of people making money, there wouldn't be a Paddy Powers, would there?

ecksor

That's fallacious reasoning. Lots of people could be making money and the losses from losing punters might still make it a very profitable business.

telecaster

ecksor wrote:

Lots of people could be making money and the losses from losing punters might still make it a very profitable business.

That's exactly how it works, the losers pay for the winners.

whatsupdoc?

it is normal in the bookie industry to close winning accounts

Yes all bookies do it if they didn't, some of them would go out of business.

When the exchanges started, it meant that the "cute punter" would take their winning bets elsewherw.
The big problem with exchanges is you need liquidity to use them.
Most bookies make money from trebles, accumulators etc.
A lot of the single bets they lose money on and some bookies certainley do not want the 100 euro on the nose every day bloke, they would prefer the
fiver win, the 1 euro double and 50 cents forecast bets.

telecaster

whatsupdoc? wrote:

A lot of the single bets they lose money on and some bookies certainley do not want the 100 euro on the nose every day bloke,

Which is precisely why punters should be backing in singles as often as is possible. There is less profit in them for the bookmaker.

It's never been easier for a punter to make money, and never been harder for a bookie to make it pay.

Access to information and ease of bet placement with a selection of bookies has taken the monopoly and guesswork factors out of betting.

Nalced_irl

whatsupdoc? wrote:

Yes all bookies do it if they didn't, some of them would go out of business.

Precisely, they LIMIT consistent accounts, however Dolemans story about closing any winning account they come accross is absolute bull. Naturally ALL bookies will limit consistent winners however as i questioned earlier, he must have left on bad terms from PP and decided to have a shot at them. Either that, or he really has no idea about the gambling industry and thought they were the only ones protecting themselves from bankrupcey! Fact is Boyles, PP, Will Hill, Stans, Lads and all other bookies do the same thing.

whatsupdoc? wrote:

Most bookies make money from trebles, accumulators etc.
A lot of the single bets they lose money on and some bookies certainley do not want the 100 euro on the nose every day bloke, they would prefer the
fiver win, the 1 euro double and 50 cents forecast bets.

Spot on, it is the small punter who throws on the accumilators every saturday or randomly picks a horse in the national and throws €10 on it that make the money for all bookies. The bigger gambler will usually be either up or down by quite a small amount (of course there are exceptions) in either direction and so will not affect the companys profit hugely. However smaller gamblers rarely put any thought behind what they are backing or else do a 10 way accumilator of odds on football matches for the weekend where at least 1 team will let them down 99% of the time and so this is where the money comes from.

wb

Gotta agree here about doing the multiple bets. Especailly yankees and Canadians etc. The bookie makes a mint from them. I'm sure everyone here has a story about how they were let down on a mulitple. For fooks sake, it't hard enough to pick one winner, let alone 3 or 4.

This is why the bookies promote multiples with ad's, special dockets etc. Have you ever seen promotional material for the "lucky single win bet".. ?? Of course not. The single win bet should be the bread and butter bet for the serious punter.