Games and piracy in Russia

Trode

I still can't believe people are refusing to accept this, but facts anyone?

L31mr0d

Trode wrote:

I still can't believe people are refusing to accept this, but facts anyone?

Thanks Trode, but this clearly is a case of Ignornence is Bliss, you could show these people the actual blood on the hands of the people who recieve this money and people like DanielGosling, fluffer and Kristok would still go out and buy their counterfeit goods muttering to themselves "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil". They want cheap illegal goods and they will reason anything to try and wash their conscience clean of who they are supporting, and how organised crime will eventually be the saviours of us rich westerners.

So what if it is a lone stallsman selling warez, again you are failing to see the bigger picture. You can't FOR DEFINITE tell me that that man you bought from wasn't involved with the mafia, neither can I, but I am making a logical conclusion based on facts about piracy, russia and organised crime (and monument, I have no intention of producing an appendix of references, Trode has given links already which have clearly been dismissed under the same muttering as mentioned) what are your conclusions based on Daniel?

danielgosling

Thanks for the link. I read alot of it and please correct me if im wrong but I saw no mention of the mafia. There was however several paragraphs about well organized syndicates who are responsible for most of the Russian piracy but the word mafia was not used once. I particularily found the 13th paragraph of the section called "Optical Media Production Grows" interesting. This does confirm that well organized and managed groups are responsible but again Mafia is a word that does not come up once. I mean I hope I'm not confused. Is the mafia the word used today for all organized crime? Because if that is so then this debate needs to start over. Otherwise lets focus on the fact that not all criminals are blood thirsty thugs who want to rip off games and also engage in people trafficking and drugs. Im not supporting crime I'm just saying that just because a group is well organized in its illegal dealings doesn't make them little godfathers...or does it L31mr0d?

awhir

danielgosling wrote:

Thanks for the link. I read alot of it and please correct me if im wrong but I saw no mention of the mafia. There was however several paragraphs about well organized syndicates who are responsible for most of the Russian piracy but the word mafia was not used once. I particularily found the 13th paragraph of the section called "Optical Media Production Grows" interesting. This does confirm that well organized and managed groups are responsible but again Mafia is a word that does not come up once. I mean I hope I'm not confused. Is the mafia the word used today for all organized crime? Because if that is so then this debate needs to start over. Otherwise lets focus on the fact that not all criminals are blood thirsty thugs who want to rip off games and also engage in people trafficking and drugs. Im not supporting crime I'm just saying that just because a group is well organized in its illegal dealings doesn't make them little godfathers...or does it L31mr0d?

im with you man i like debates

ArphaRima

you could show these people the actual blood on the hands of the people who recieve this money

Im sorry. I didnt know I was supporting murderers. I will cease and desist immediately.
For gods sake. The shops I speak of flood entire districts in Vietnamese cities. They are called software districts. You cant buy legit software. Its all downloaded, burnt onto a cd and sold over the counter. You leaf through a book, write down the code of the software and they scurry off to get it for you. From retail shop in malaysia, to internet, to pirated shop in Vietnam, I cannot see where I could possibly see "the actual blood on the hands". See my 1st post.

Trode

danielgosling wrote:

Thanks for the link. I read alot of it and please correct me if im wrong but I saw no mention of the mafia. There was however several paragraphs about well organized syndicates who are responsible for most of the Russian piracy but the word mafia was not used once. I particularily found the 13th paragraph of the section called "Optical Media Production Grows" interesting. This does confirm that well organized and managed groups are responsible but again Mafia is a word that does not come up once. I mean I hope I'm not confused. Is the mafia the word used today for all organized crime? Because if that is so then this debate needs to start over. Otherwise lets focus on the fact that not all criminals are blood thirsty thugs who want to rip off games and also engage in people trafficking and drugs. Im not supporting crime I'm just saying that just because a group is well organized in its illegal dealings doesn't make them little godfathers...or does it L31mr0d?

It does in fact mention the mafia

Anti-piracy actions targeted
at the Russian Mafia could boost government and public confidence that economic crime can be dealt with.

Now, why would they target them if they're not involved?

Not that it's not a little intellectually dishonest to draw a distinction between

organized criminal syndicates that control much of the pirate market in Russia

particularly ones who are known to

routinely threaten legitimate game publishers.

, and "Russian mafia" anyway.
What exactly is your personal definition of mafia? Italian guys in suits and fedoras?

K.O.Kiki

Mmm... I love the smell of ignorance in the morning!

Kristok

Got something to add then do so otherwise stop flaming, while i dont agree what some people are saying at least they are trying to say something.

danielgosling

I wrote the post originally because I thought people would be interested in the situation over in Russia as games here are so expensive. But now I am defending the right to buy these pirated games for some reason?! I don't think crime groups that get the label mafia have to fit the movie image but I do think they are much more likely to be brutal, uncompromising and willing to make money from very shady areas such as people trafficking and drugs. Yes in the problem of combating illegal crime the mafia and every other gang are in the same catagory, it's just that doesnt mean that buying pirated software off a group who rip off games means that you're automatically supporting the mafia's dealings. I readily admit that what I did by buying these games was not the perfect thing to do but I'll also admit that if EMI and all their rich pals would support their artists more and sell albums for a more resonable price like say 10 euro then I probably never would buy pirate goods.period. I just don't like when people rant and get unreasonable when there's no need. yes what i did was not very good but in my mind I dont view myself as a criminal. Yes my money is going to criminals but please dont attack me and say I'm supporting people being killed. When i was in Russia everyone I was with Russian or not had no problem buying these games etc. We saw only that they were cheaper and still were great quality so we smiled and bought them. Call us stupidly ignorant but we only saw the better economics. Im not a bit guilty really.

amp

I'd like to know why you posted the exact same thread in the Games Review forum.

danielgosling

Sorry I first posted it in the wrong forum and just assumed that it would get deleted.

L31mr0d

danielgosling wrote:

....I readily admit that what I did by buying these games was not the perfect thing to do but I'll also admit that if EMI and all their rich pals would support their artists more and sell albums for a more resonable price like say 10 euro then I probably never would buy pirate goods.period. I just don't like when people rant and get unreasonable when there's no need. yes what i did was not very good but in my mind I dont view myself as a criminal. Yes my money is going to criminals but please dont attack me and say I'm supporting people being killed. When i was in Russia everyone I was with Russian or not had no problem buying these games etc. We saw only that they were cheaper and still were great quality so we smiled and bought them. Call us stupidly ignorant but we only saw the better economics. Im not a bit guilty really.

Would you view yourself as a criminal if you had gone to a warehouse and bought a car you knew had been stolen but had been resprayed and its plates changed? Buying warez is the same thing. How much money would you have to hand over before your conscience would twinge. How much money is supporting criminals? Whether it just be organised crime, or the mafia, why give them your money? why take the chance that your money is going to be in anyway used to traffic drugs, or any of the other undesirable traits of these people.

Sure your money might just go to producing more counterfeit games but it also might go towards buying the bullets for a criminals gun, you don't know. But in giving your money to that criminal you've allowed him to do with it as he sees fit, you've supported his way of life.

Ignorence is no excuse, and pretending to "do as the romans" isn't either. You're not Russian, you, at least, have perspective, and knew what you where doing was wrong. Just because the Russians around you grew up in this environment, does not mean you did nor should of accepted it. It comes down to a student on a strapped budget wanting to play a few games on the cheap, and i'm sure if EMI started selling albums for €10, you'd probably still be at the warez stand buying it for €1 for "better economics" and i'm sure the next time you go back to Russia you'll be at the same stall again buying the latest ripoffs, not seeing the wood for the trees in ignorent bliss.

Kristok

L31mr0d wrote:

Would you view yourself as a criminal if you had gone to a warehouse and bought a car you knew had been stolen but had been resprayed and its plates changed? Buying warez is the same thing.

Oh yea the exact same thing :rolleyes:

ArphaRima

I like the way my argument was completely ignored. Convenient.

Trode

fluffer wrote:

I like the way my argument was completely ignored. Convenient.

In Communist Russia, arguments ignore you!

Sorry, I've wanted to do that all thread.

Seriously, your arguments, as far as I can tell, boil down to 'Companies can afford the cost of piracy', citing MS (who do have a pattern of willingly taking financial hits in order to secure market share, see Internet Explorer) and unnamed DVD distributors. If that's a defence of piracy in general,it's shaky, and if somehow your repeated, yet unsubstantiated, claims that piracy has nothing to do with organised crime are to be taken as a rebuttal point, there's very little arguing against it to be done.

Cuddlesworth

Trode wrote:

Seriously, your arguments, as far as I can tell, boil down to 'Companies can afford the cost of piracy',

They can but only for one reason, they pass the cost in lost revenue onto the consumer who is willing to pay for the game. Its all part of the budget, the only difference is Music companys who refuse to pass on any savings onto the consumer for so many years(look into the cost of manufacturing cds in a 20 year span compared to average album prices). But for most other industrys the people who lose are the legit consumers and the makers. The big publishing companys lose nothing.

jesus_thats_gre

The introduction of CDs and DVDs are the perfect example..

When CD was originally touted as a format, one of the primary benefits was that it was considerably cheaper to manufacture than tape. The same applied to DVDs over VHS tapes.

Dispite that, you had the the situation whereby CDs and tapes were being sold alongside each other but CDs were more expensive to buy. The exact same thing happened with Videos and DVDs. Record companies etc used the launch of a new cheaper to produce format as an excuse to hike prices upwards by quite a large amount.

The above the the cost of stuff in Asia shows how greedy companies are and how the "wealthy" people in the West are being taken advantage of.

Balfa

L31mr0d wrote:

Are you serious? I thought you had to have some kind of brains to get into Trinity? Do I really need to baby feed you the "facts" about piracy and organised crime. If I said "the sun will rise tomorrow", would you like me to get astronomical data about stars and planatary orbits to prove it to you?

Come off it, if you want to debate away without backing yourself up, no one's going to pay attention to you. You'll realise that you need to put a little effort in and YOU will have to come up with the facts you're trying to prove. There's no point in screaming at people and insulting them for not knowing everything you know. And when people question your word, you can set their mind at ease by providing them with sensible sources promoting your cause, instead of screaming at them some more and saying how worrying it is that they simply disregard the "facts" (and I like the way you put it in quotes, as if to prove his point) that you've still failed to produce. And no one's yet doubted your statement about the Sun, so don't worry about proving that one.

Just do a search (do you know how to do that? try google.com) for piracy russia games mafia... whatever.

Have you even done that search? The first two pages are irrelevant articles about starforce. Followed by This Very Thread. Followed by some articles that make a passing reference to what we're looking for. None of which I would call any sort of facts. That ties in with what I was saying about you needing to do the legwork and bring the facts to your readers, not screaming something then telling them to go prove your point. We're not all born with your worldly wisdom and knowledge.

By the way, saying...

I'm simply stating a FACT, I don't need to back it up with any because that is what it is?

...is completely missing the point. Your ignorance is scary :P

Your ignorence is scary, HOW THE HELL COULD YOU NOT THINK ABOUT IT??? The people in Russia have grown up with organised crime. You haven't

You just answered your own question, there, I think.

Tell me, if you knew a bunch of racists, pedophiles and rapists got together and opened up a warehouse selling cheap games, would you be first in line?

Okay, later on you say you're fine with piracy where no-one profits. Hmm, so you go to websites to download your free games and the websites have porn banner ads that pay pedophiles for every visitor that views them.

So tunnel vision + lunatic ranting + lack of ability to criticise own actions = forum posters like you.

I'm not denying what you're saying. Just try and say it in a way that doesn't provoke irritation and hatred, eh?

Trode

Balfa wrote:

Come off it, if you want to debate away without backing yourself up, no one's going to pay attention to you. You'll realise that you need to put a little effort in and YOU will have to come up with the facts you're trying to prove. There's no point in screaming at people and insulting them for not knowing everything you know. And when people question your word, you can set their mind at ease by providing them with sensible sources promoting your cause, instead of screaming at them some more and saying how worrying it is that they simply disregard the "facts" (and I like the way you put it in quotes, as if to prove his point) that you've still failed to produce. And no one's yet doubted your statement about the Sun, so don't worry about proving that one.

Have you even done that search? The first two pages are irrelevant articles about starforce. Followed by This Very Thread. Followed by some articles that make a passing reference to what we're looking for. None of which I would call any sort of facts. That ties in with what I was saying about you needing to do the legwork and bring the facts to your readers, not screaming something then telling them to go prove your point. We're not all born with your worldly wisdom and knowledge.

By the way, saying......is completely missing the point. Your ignorance is scary :P

You just answered your own question, there, I think.

Okay, later on you say you're fine with piracy where no-one profits. Hmm, so you go to websites to download your free games and the websites have porn banner ads that pay pedophiles for every visitor that views them.

So tunnel vision + lunatic ranting + lack of ability to criticise own actions = forum posters like you.

I'm not denying what you're saying. Just try and say it in a way that doesn't provoke irritation and hatred, eh?

To be fair, he's the only one here being subjected to such stringent demands for evidence for what is a fairly common-sense assumption. "The crime I'm benefitting from is being committed by criminals you say?! I demand a full written confession from said criminals, as well as detailed accounts for how they spend the money, otherwise I'll assume it's entirely legit and the proceeds are going to kitten orphanages!"

I've yet to see even a half-hearted attempt to actually prove him wrong, except for the following three unproven arguments
1) Cheap stuff is good
2) It's totally cool, really.
3) Corporations are evil.
In fact, your claim that you couldn't find evidence to support him(and the associated 2-page google search) is so far the most effort that's been put into doing so.

Balfa

Trode wrote:

"The crime I'm benefitting from is being committed by criminals you say?! I demand a full written confession from said criminals, as well as detailed accounts for how they spend the money, otherwise I'll assume it's entirely legit and the proceeds are going to kitten orphanages!"

Heheh. True. To be fair.

L31mr0d

Balfa wrote:

Heheh. True. To be fair.

I love the way you are biased in attacking ME for not producing references and studies into piracy and its relation to organised crime. But you are not attacking any of the other posters here that seem to be producing NO legitimate sources to support their arguments of the benefits of piracy? If you are going to require information to be produced in support of an argument then BOTH SIDES should have to produce it. They are not just saying i'm wrong, they are saying that piracy benefits us, show us the proof?

Plus Trode has produced sources which back up my opinion, you can't just ignore them as facts because I didn't post them. I've already thanked Trode for his work, but he shouldn't of had to do it, if someone posts a legitimate article telling me that piracy is good for society then i'll rebut, but come of it, are you seriously saying that I need to prove to you that organised crime is bad?

Balfa wrote:

Okay, later on you say you're fine with piracy where no-one profits. Hmm, so you go to websites to download your free games and the websites have porn banner ads that pay pedophiles for every visitor that views them.

Last time I checked my p2p program has no spyware or porn banners, neither does my torrent RSS feeds, i'll recheck for you if you like.

Anyway, the answer tbh loike