Dog Bite

Duras

peasant wrote:

I' m angry that the little fella had to die, because there clearly were signs of things going badly wrong and nothing seems to have been done about it.

Well, something has been done already.

peasant wrote:

But I am absolutely ENRAGED that with your pet barely cold you should be on the lookout already for a "new one" to replace him.

Well, if he had one bad experience with a dog it doesn't mean he has to hate them now... Getting a new dog is a good idea...

peasant wrote:

Don't you think that this sad occasion would be a good time for reflection, for asking yourself, those around you and possibly some people in the know what went wrong and why it came to this?

What is to reflect about this? The dog went wrong, he was put to sleep. It's only a very sad story, it's not rocket science.

peasant wrote:

Don't you think you might just maybe have some more things to learn about dog behaviour and dog training?
Wouldn't you agree that now would be a good time to learn about these things BEFORE you get another dog?
If you made any mistakes, wouldn't you rather not repeat them than have to put another dog down a few years down the line?

Well, I see fathersymes learned the most important lesson and he is looking for a pup now. I believe that there is a big mistake to adopt an adult dog... One should do this only if he is an experienced trainer.

You feel compassion for the wrong being here. Facts: Dog attacked human. Dog was put down. You should feel compassion for the owner and for the victim...

peasant

Well thanks, Duras for your words of wisdom.

I will not discuss your views further with you, as this would be a complete waste of time and I'd only be repeating myself. Seenashow my arguments seem to have gone completely over your head the first time round this would indeed be a futile excercise.

Well ... can't convince them all ....


But one point seems worth mentioning ...if only for the benefit of others:

Well, I see fathersymes learned the most important lesson and he is looking for a pup now. I believe that there is a big mistake to adopt an adult dog... One should do this only if he is an experienced trainer

That ...excuse the language ...is complete and utter bull.

The most formative stage for a dog is during puppyhood. It is then that it needs to be carefully made familiar with its sorroundings, with day to day stuff, sights, noises, other people and other dogs. (Also called socializing) Get that wrong and your dog will have issues for the rest of its life that will be very hard to impossible to iron out.
Get it really wrong and you could turn the sweetest puppy into either an agressive biest or a totally insecure and frightened heap ...in either case you would have another possible biter on your hands.

With an adult dog you can assess its character, you can decide whether this specific dog will fit in with you and yours and your circumstances and you can still train it to live to your house rules.
And if that adult dog isn't one of the poor unfortunate ones that was f*cked up as a pup and subsequently disposed of, you can get yourself a perfect companion.

But if in fact you have no clue how to treat a dog properly, then it is best to get no dog at all.

People that come out with statements like this:

What is to reflect about this? The dog went wrong, he was put to sleep

would certainly fall into that last category

Arcadian

Duras wrote:

I believe that there is a big mistake to adopt an adult dog... One should do this only if he is an experienced trainer.

..

That has got to be the dumbest comment that has arisen from this thread:mad:

Dyr

You dont need a degree in dog psychology (actually i'm betting that theres no such thing lol) to own a dog if you're working with decent material. Some dogs just do have a tendency to bite and yes, if they do it repeatedly instead of as a reaction to extreme circumstances they should be PTS, it's just best not to take the risk. Some people can't get past the emotive issues involved.

peasant

Bambi wrote:

Some people can't get past the emotive issues involved.

A rather daring statement with that nickname, Bambi

Nothing to do with emotions ...once again it all boils down to the one thing that so many people lack:

RESPECT

for a fellow creature, its needs, abilities and rights. But also realizing its differences and its shortcomings. Not measuring an animal with the yardstick of egotistical human expectations, but treating it according to what it is, to what is capable of, what it can do, understand and learn ...but even more importantly also to grasp what is impossible to expect or demand.

But I fear that is preaching to the deaf when talking to someone who refers to a fellow creature as

decent material

Duras

peasant wrote:

That ...excuse the language ...is complete and utter bull.

The most formative stage for a dog is during puppyhood. It is then that it needs to be carefully made familiar with its sorroundings, with day to day stuff, sights, noises, other people and other dogs. (Also called socializing) Get that wrong and your dog will have issues for the rest of its life that will be very hard to impossible to iron out.
Get it really wrong and you could turn the sweetest puppy into either an agressive biest or a totally insecure and frightened heap ...in either case you would have another possible biter on your hands.

That's exactly what I am saying. This is why one should get his own puppy and raise it properly instead of getting an adult dog which you know nothing about.

My comment is bull but you say the same thing. That's a bit strange I'd say.

Duras

Arcadian wrote:

That has got to be the dumbest comment that has arisen from this thread:mad:

Wow, thanks.

EGAR

FFS, adopting an adult dog is a mistake?

I have had only adult dogs in my life, never had a pup (apart from in my rescue). Never had any problems and I re-home adult dogs all the time. I do not understand this comment at all.

As to the rest of the thread, I will say nothing as it is getting my hackles up BIG time.

Our man in Havana

I have adopted & taken in lots of adult dogs - we currently have 10 dogs 9 were adopted or found - Duke was my last rescue he was a rottweiller he was around 8 years old & had obviously been beaten & treated like sh!te for most of his life & had barely been fed - Yet you would not meet a nice dog ANYWHERE! I have no problem adopting adult dogs at all.

I am sorry for the OP that he had to let his dog be put to sleep, it would have been nice to know that the bite we heard about was not an isolated incident....

Lexie

I am not an expert in dogs, I just had 2 when I was little. However I can see that all this yada yada about dog biting because he had a headache or hernia or cooties or hack knows what is total nonsense. So I think you did the best thing by putting him to sleep.

Absolute B******t !! :rolleyes:

Wokie

Raiser wrote:

Finally, Wokie - appreciate your sense of humour re. the sig., - you do "you people" proud! Sorry for being such a smart-arse !!![/I]

Hey.......no sweat Raiser:)

Interesting about the Cocker Spaniel. My one is a Cocker Spaniel:rolleyes:

This thread has taken a worrying turn.....don't get an adult?:eek: How stupid are some people?

:mad: Too annoyed to continue:mad:

Duras

Lexie wrote:

Absolute B******t !! :rolleyes:

I take that you punch your friend's gf when you have a headache?

Bond-007 wrote:

I have adopted & taken in lots of adult dogs - we currently have 10 dogs 9 were adopted or found -

Having 10 dogs atm makes you an expert trainer/owner/whatever and I was not talking about this kind of situation. I was talking about the regular guy who wants to have a (one) dog.

EGAR wrote:

... and I re-home adult dogs all the time.

Again, I was not talking about people that "worked" with a lot of dogs. My comment was about the ordinary guy that likes dogs, not about people that have/had many dogs and have a lot of experience with them.

peasant

My comment was about the ordinary guy that likes dogs, not about people that have/had many dogs and have a lot of experience with them.

And those are EXACTLY the kind of people who should get an adult dog (if any) and not ruin another pup with their inexperience and ignorance.

Arcadian

I've adopted both of my dogs within the last year and purposely went for adults (aged 1 and 3) because i didn't feel i had the experience to socialise a puppy.

luckat

Very sorry to hear that the dog had to be put down, but I think you did the wise and correct thing. It's not safe or right to keep a dog with a hair-trigger temper.

Dogs have certainly been bred for hundreds of thousands of years - but not always to be domesticated and sweet-natured. Humans have also bred hunting dogs and fighting dogs.

Dogs, like humans, can also suffer physical damage; there is such a thing as a schizophenic dog.

Dogs can also have physical problems. They can get epilepsy, with various effects. They can be hit by cars and have brain damage.

Dogs that are taken from their mothers too young can fail to be socialised, so their knowledge of pack behaviour can be messed up.

May I suggest that you get a puppy, but only if you see it with its mother and littermates. Don't take the shy puppy that hides - take the one that comes happily out to smell you, wagging its tail and friendly, and is big and strong and healthy.

Take it home only when it's three months old, having visited it several times so it knows it's yours.

And when it comes home, may I suggest that both you and your girlfriend clicker-train it (www.clickertraining.com gives lots of help here). It should grow up knowing that you are the alpha couple - in wolf terms the loving leaders who can be trusted and followed and played with gently and trustingly.

I hope you have many years of happiness with your new pup, and somehow replace the love you got from the dog that's sadly had to be put down.

peasant

luckat wrote:

And when it comes home, may I suggest that both you and your girlfriend clicker-train it (www.clickertraining.com gives lots of help here). It should grow up knowing that you are the alpha couple - in wolf terms the loving leaders who can be trusted and followed and played with gently and trustingly.

slighly OT ...

luckat ...just how exactly does conditioning a dog with clickety-thingy turn the OP and his GF into a breeding wolf-couple?

And why on earth should humans pretend to be wolves to teach a dog to react to a noisemaking metal yoke ??

Ever heard of direct communication?

As in human - dog and reverse?

Duras

Wokie wrote:

This thread has taken a worrying turn.....don't get an adult?:eek: How stupid are some people?

Well it took a bad turn indeed, it's the second time I get insulted because I have a different view on things than some narrow minded e-beings.

I take the forum mod is on vacation or something. Don't bother with more insults as I will not read them... Or at a second thought, keep doing it if it makes you feel better.

As for fathersymes, my in-experienced, dumb and stupid advice is

go for a puppy, train it yourself (assisted by a professional trainer if it is the case) and be happy.

tbh

peasant wrote:

slighly OT ...

luckat ...just how exactly does conditioning a dog with clickety-thingy turn the OP and his GF into a breeding wolf-couple?

And why on earth should humans pretend to be wolves to teach a dog to react to a noisemaking metal yoke ??

Ever heard of direct communication?

As in human - dog and reverse?

Can I just say? Luckat is making a suggestion to the OP. They can take it or leave it, just as they can take or leave your suggestions. I asked before about your background, is there any reason why any of the "neutrals" should take your advice over anyone elses, or is it just your opinion? You seem to be very dismissive of any opinion that isn't the same as yours, and passing a lot of your comments off as fact. I have no doubt that you have nothing but the best intentions, but can you let me know how you are qualified to make such black and white statements?

Duras wrote:

Again, I was not talking about people that "worked" with a lot of dogs. My comment was about the ordinary guy that likes dogs

you mean you were specifically answering the question that was raised by the OP??!? Shame on you!!

peasant

tbh wrote:

Can I just say? Luckat is making a suggestion to the OP. They can take it or leave it, just as they can take or leave your suggestions. I asked before about your background, is there any reason why any of the "neutrals" should take your advice over anyone elses, or is it just your opinion? You seem to be very dismissive of any opinion that isn't the same as yours, and passing a lot of your comments off as fact. I have no doubt that you have nothing but the best intentions, but can you let me know how you are qualified to make such black and white statements?

OK ... slight excursion off topic:

Raising and keeping a dog is very simple really ...you only need a few things:

1) respect for the dog, its needs, abilities and limitations.
2) understanding that you are dealing with a dog
3) knowledge how to cummunicate with a dog - both ways
4) patience
5) consistency in your actions
6) understanding that the dog is your responsibility
7) knowledge on how to care for your dog

You don't need a degree or any sort of qualification ...just a bit of cop-on and common sense.

Those, by the way also are my "qualifications."

The above points are not "my opinion", they are the underlying principles of looking after every kind of animal ...just replace "dog" with the animal of your choice.
They are what right-minded people have been doing for centuries.

Not rocket science ...no new "religion" ...no new, money spinning fashion of how to train your dog ....just common sense.


Yes ...I do get dismissive of a lot of things that get branded about when it comes to keeping and raising dogs. Be they notions of human supremacy, plain ignorance, cruelty, reliance on gadgets or anthropomorphism.

Why do I get dismissive?

Because the solution is so simple and so bloomin plain to see ...

tbh

peasant wrote:

Because the solution is so simple and so bloomin plain to see ...

The fact is, you are offering your opinions as plain fact. They are not necessarily fact, they are opinions. While many may find them welcome, that doesn't give you the right to be so dismissive of others - equally valid - opinions, especially when all anyone is trying to do is to help the OP.

peasant

While many may find them welcome, that doesn't give you the right to be so dismissive of others - equally valid - opinions, especially when all anyone is trying to do is to help the OP.

Everybody else has the right to be equally dismissive of my statements ...and they are.

It's called a heated discussion.



And on an animals/pets board it is not always the poster that needs to be helped ...sometimes the animal needs help too.

tbh

peasant wrote:

Everybody else has the right to be equally dismissive of my statements ...and they are.

It's called a heated discussion.



And on an animals/pets board it is not always the poster that needs to be helped ...sometimes the animal needs help too.

fair point.

Wokie

Duras wrote:

Well it took a bad turn indeed, it's the second time I get insulted because I have a different view on things than some narrow minded e-beings.

I take the forum mod is on vacation or something. Don't bother with more insults as I will not read them... Or at a second thought, keep doing it if it makes you feel better.

As for fathersymes, my in-experienced, dumb and stupid advice is

go for a puppy, train it yourself (assisted by a professional trainer if it is the case) and be happy.

I apologise for insulting you, I may have come on a bit strong.:o

tbh

dog eh? they bring out strong emotions

Raiser

Peasant consider a name change to Dr. Doolittle - for you truly do posses ALL of the correct, astoundingly astute and valid opinions on this thread.

Nobody wants to have a "heated discussion" with you - why not discuss things calmly and reasonably with the rest of us?

Your intolerance and ugly, dismissive attitude has made you come across as a bit of a arrogant, loudmouth bigot to be honest.

Get a dog, treat it with respect, feed it, give it company, excercise and shelter and you will be rewarded with a constant, faithful companion.

- If it starts biting your friends and family in frenzied attacks for no good reason - despite your having followed basic common sense, then you have a problem that is not of your doing and you will need to take steps.

peasant

Raiser wrote:

- If it starts biting your friends and family in frenzied attacks for no good reason - despite your having followed basic common sense, then you have a problem that is not of your doing and you will need to take steps.

right ...back to topic then ...

As several people (and not just me) have said in this thread, a (normal, healthy) dog does NOT attack without reason and it also does not attack without warning.

The logical conclusion of this would be, of course, that you DID make a mistake somewhere along the way and gave it a reason.

So if you had any compassion for the animal you would go looking for the reason(s) and remedy them and not just put it down.


I'm getting the impression here that quite few people would rather put the animal down than face the possibiliy that they may have been fallable.


And that's just wrong

tbh

peasant wrote:

The logical conclusion of this would be, of course, that you DID make a mistake somewhere along the way and gave it a reason.

So if you had any compassion for the animal you would go looking for the reason(s) and remedy them and not just put it down.


I'm getting the impression here that quite few people would rather put the animal down than face the possibiliy that they may have been fallable.


And that's just wrong

ahh peasant, cop on, you're arguing over semantics here. YES there probably was a reason, there is a reason for everything, but the facts of this case are that that reason will never be determined. If it were something as simple as the animal was in pain, or the bitee did something to provoke it, the OP wouldn't have posted on here. The fact is that as he observed it, there was no reason. Short of asking the dog what happened, it's likely he'll never know why. So IN THOSE SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES the responsible thing to do was to put the dog down. You can argue for as long as you want about the hows and the whys, but they are irrelevant here. Giving out to the OP and accusing the situation of being his fault is unhelpful.

I'm getting the impression here that quite few people would rather put the animal down than face the possibiliy that they may have been fallable.

which do you think is harder? To have much loved family pet put to sleep, or to keep it and hope it never does it again? Statements like that cheapen your argument, to be honest.

Dyr

Dogs never attack without "reason" or warning? So the dog can never simply be "wrong" (in human terms)?

I've been bitten by dogs in the street that came up behind me and took a snap at my ankles. No warning. These mutt's might have had some good "reason" in their canine minds but its still not acceptable. I wasnt at fault regardless of what the dog "thought". I've seen dogs with lousy temperments that growl and snap at people who reach down to pet them etc. In that instance it doesnt matter if the animal is giving a warning, it's behaviour is not "reasonable" and its becoming a liability to peoples safety.

But like I said, people tend get emotional over these issues, as this thread has shown :rolleyes:

peasant

tbh wrote:

ahh peasant, cop on, you're arguing over semantics here. YES there probably was a reason, there is a reason for everything, but the facts of this case are that that reason will never be determined. If it were something as simple as the animal was in pain, or the bitee did something to provoke it, the OP wouldn't have posted on here. The fact is that as he observed it, there was no reason. Short of asking the dog what happened, it's likely he'll never know why. So IN THOSE SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES the responsible thing to do was to put the dog down. You can argue for as long as you want about the hows and the whys, but they are irrelevant here. Giving out to the OP and accusing the situation of being his fault is unhelpful.

I don't really want to talk about the OP "behind his back", all my remarks so far (bar one) were kept general but I have to make an exception here:

The op has later admitted that there had been previous cases where the dog had bitten ...obviously they weren't as bad as the last one, because he wasn't concerned too much about them.

But he should have been. He (or the people around him) clearly weren't in control of the animal. That little fella probably was under the impression that this family was his to command and he objected ever stronger to what he didn't like ...eventually by biting.

This behaviour should have been noticed and nibbed in the bud. With the first biting incident at the very latest the op should have looked for help to get this dog back on track.

Instead nothing was done until the bitter end.

which do you think is harder? To have much loved family pet put to sleep, or to keep it and hope it never does it again? Statements like that cheapen your argument, to be honest.

I don't care which is "harder" ....both courses simply are wrong ...see above


And what really gets me going then is the fact that the OP wants to get another JR terrier ...because they are so lively and feisty and great fun, while he clearly let the last one run away with all its "feistyness" and couldn't manage him.

A clear sign of having learned nothing whatsoever and egocentric consumerism at its worst.

peasant

Bambi wrote:

Dogs never attack without "reason" or warning? So the dog can never simply be "wrong" (in human terms)?

I've been bitten by dogs in the street that came up behind me and took a snap at my ankles. No warning. These mutt's might have had some good "reason" in their canine minds but its still not acceptable. I wasnt at fault regardless of what the dog "thought". I've seen dogs with lousy temperments that growl and snap at people who reach down to pet them etc. In that instance it doesnt matter if the animal is giving a warning, it's behaviour is not "reasonable" and its becoming a liability to peoples safety.

But like I said, people tend get emotional over these issues, as this thread has shown :rolleyes:

Bambi

In those cases the reason is that some person has made these dogs behave the way they do.
Not the person that gets attacked, but the person responsible for that dog.
Either they have neglected to train that dog properly or they have made it viscious on purpose ...so they are at fault, not the dog.

And as a side note:

If you absolutely have to pet dogs you don't know, there are a few rules:
-If possible, ask the owner first, if it's ok to do so
-Do not "reach down" to pet a dog, besides your best intentions, this to the dog really is an aggressive move. Some have learned to ignore this and read it for what it's meant to be ...others haven't (yet). Instead honker down to the dogs level and then pet it.
- Not all dogs like to be petted on the head ..the shoulders are a much safer area

oh and another thing ...make contact with the dog first ...say something friendly ...do not startle it with a surprise "petting attack"


On second reading I'd like to add something else:

I've seen dogs with lousy temperments that growl and snap at people who reach down to pet them etc. In that instance it doesnt matter if the animal is giving a warning, it's behaviour is not "reasonable" and its becoming a liability to peoples safety.

It isn't "reasonable" either to just expect that every dog enjoys being petted. Some dogs enjoy it, others suffer it, others again don't like it at all, others again might be ill and petting could cause them pain.
Not every dog has to be a "people dog" some would just rather be left alone. That doesn't mean that they have a "lousy temperament" ...they just don't want to be petted (right now/ not ever/ not by you). The "antisocial" behaviour isn't with the dog, but with the person that insists on petting.

No "liability to peoples safety" anywhere ...