Attention Irish Motorists

GreeBo

Anan1 wrote:

If the car in front can safely pull in, thus making it safe for you to overtake, then why shouldn't you be overtaking?

Why on earth should anyone have to pull in?
What defines "safely pull in"?
Using this logic you would have slower cars pulling in and out of the hard shoulder while Jimmy Mc speed limit+10 overtakes...
Crazy.
Its not a race...there is no blue flag.

Saruman

Anan1 wrote:

If the car in front can safely pull in, thus making it safe for you to overtake, then why shouldn't you be overtaking?

Not to mention the fact that its PERFECTLY LEGAL to move in to the hard shoulder to let someone pass.

Oh and GreeBo!! Im assuming you are going by what we are talking about which is someone driving at 80kph on a regional road and someone wanting to overtake... If you move in to the hard shoulder and get a blowout.. there is no possible way you can flip your car over unless you yourself panic and turn the wheel.. its not fast enough! And as another said we are talking about if it is safe to do so. Again i point out its perfectly legal to pull in...

Im going to start another thread about speed limits.. im curious about something.

AlanD

This is the most ridiculous post I've seen in the long time. It's trying to justify the insanely dangerous practice of overtaking while there's still cars coming. I'm amazed at how many people drive towards me half on my side half on their side squeezing by a car. They're the muppetts who criticise people for not pulling over to let them pass.

You can only overtake if it's safe to do so and and if it's safe to do so, it means there's no cars coming towards you and you can safely cross in to the other half of the road to pass the car in front of you.

Noone should ever feel obliged to pull in however slightly if they are driving at the legal limit (or even if not). The muppett expecting this behind could one day misjudge his space and cause an accident. Wait a few minutes until you've a clear road and then pass safely.

:mad:

prospect

GreeBo wrote:

Why on earth should anyone have to pull in?
What defines "safely pull in"?
Using this logic you would have slower cars pulling in and out of the hard shoulder while Jimmy Mc speed limit+10 overtakes...
Crazy.
Its not a race...there is no blue flag.

Exactly, what defines anything? As your example shows. But there are an infinite amount of other possible occurances, and unfortunatly not all of them will back up your argument.

To say something like "if you can't over take safely without the car infront pulling in you shouldn't be over taking" is a massive and sweeping generalisation and therfore a load of crap. There are so many individual and unique occurances on our roads that statements like that are just meaningless jibberish. There are certain times when it is true, but there are also certain times where it is not.

prospect

AlanD wrote:

The muppett expecting this behind could one day misjudge his space and cause an accident.

Or the slower muppet "could" show some common courtesy and pull in and allow the faster moving traffic pass them safely!

There are two sides to every coin.

GreeBo

prospect wrote:

Or the slower muppet "could" show some common courtesy and pull in and allow the faster moving traffic pass them safely!

There are two sides to every coin.

So he is a muppet because he is not moving at the same speed as everyone else?
You can only overtake safely if you can overtake the car in front without them pulling in.
If the car in front needs to pull in then its not safe, you are just passing them out.
Thats why some parts of roads have solid white lines...because its not safe to overtake.

Do you pass out cars that pull in when there is a solid white line?

What if I pull into the hard shoulder and meet an obstacle there, do you mind if I rejoin tha main road?
What if I pull out and that forces you into an on-coming car?
But hey! I thought it was safe because I pulled in!?

Saruman

AlanD wrote:

This is the most ridiculous post I've seen in the long time. It's trying to justify the insanely dangerous practice of overtaking while there's still cars coming.

Actually your post is the ridiculous one.. read the damn thread... who is condoning overtaking with oncoming cars?????
The thread is about people moving over to the left to let faster cars past... so they can see whats coming.. if there is a car in the opposite direction.. its not safe to get past obviously so should never be done...
Maybe i missed a post that did condone this.. if so.. im sorry but its not what i thought we were talking about. I thoght we were talking about a slower car moving into hard shoulder for a second to left the faster car past safely so they do not resort to dangerous overtaking.

GreeBo

Saruman wrote:

people moving over to the left to let faster cars past... so they can see whats coming.. if there is a car in the opposite direction..

Perhaps if you were not driving inside my boot you could see what was happening ahead?

AlanD

prospect wrote:

Or the slower muppet "could" show some common courtesy and pull in and allow the faster moving traffic pass them safely!

There are two sides to every coin.

I agree, there are definitely times a dawdling driver could pull in a bit. But if there's still cars coming the other way, that little bit of space is still not safe enough.

Now perhaps I'm imagining different scenarios to you guys, but any time I think of someone pulling in it's cos there's cars coming and the lad behind is dying to get past. What if you misjudge the gap or what if the guy coming towards you decides it's time to play with the radio or look for his bag of crisps and drifts over a little bit. By the passer squeezing in to these gaps after a car has pulled in, the passer has almost no room to avoid these things. You can't trust the other driver, you can only trust yourself.

If someone can explain to me though how a situation like I've explained above is safe, please do so and I might be swayed.

Of course there are situations where it could be safe and there's no cars coming, but then you'd hardly need the car in front to pull in, would you?

Perhaps, describe a scenario where someone pulls in and it's safe to pass.

Too add to this, it's definitely an aggressive action if someone hogs the white line to stop you passing, but the way i see it, if there's no cars coming, I can still pass. I don't need him and would never expect the car in front to pull in for me.

prospect

GreeBo wrote:

So he is a muppet because he is not moving at the same speed as everyone else?

No, he/she is a muppet for deliberatly not makeing a preventative manouver (SP)

GreeBo wrote:

You can only overtake safely if you can overtake the car in front.
If the car in front needs to pull in then its not safe.

You can over take safely when there is no oncoming cars or obstructions, you can overtake even SAFER when the car ahead makes it so by moving to one side.

GreeBo wrote:

Thats why some parts of roads have solid white lines...because its not safe to overtake.

I dont recall mentioning overtaking where there is a solid white line?

GreeBo wrote:

Do you pass out cars that pull in when there is a solid white line?

If the car ahead moves over far enough that I can pass without crossing the solid white line, then I will overtake. As the rules of the road say it is illegal to cross the white line, they do not say it is illegal to overtake.

From the ROTR (http://www.lireland.com/ go to ROTR/traffic signs & roadway markings/roadway markings)
"• Single or double continuous white lines along the centre of the road; all traffic must keep to the left of the line (except in an emergency or for access)."

GreeBo

AlanD wrote:

the way i see it, if there's no cars coming, I can still pass. I don't need him and would never expect the car in front to pull in for me.

Exactly...the only time you need someone to pull in is when you cannot pass safely otherwise...so then dont fricken pass!

AlanD

Saruman wrote:

Actually your post is the ridiculous one.. read the damn thread... who is condoning overtaking with oncoming cars?????
The thread is about people moving over to the left to let faster cars past... so they can see whats coming.. if there is a car in the opposite direction.. its not safe to get past obviously so should never be done...
Maybe i missed a post that did condone this.. if so.. im sorry but its not what i thought we were talking about. I thoght we were talking about a slower car moving into hard shoulder for a second to left the faster car past safely so they do not resort to dangerous overtaking.

apologies if I added a new thread to the discussion, I guess we all have certain images in our head, and that image in mine is related to this thread IMO.

Tell me, in the scenario that you have in your head. What else is going on the road that requires you to want the car in front to pull in to the hard shoulder so you don't have to resort to dangerous driving? If the person did not pull in, what part of your overtaking manouvere would be dangerous? Would there be a car coming?

And as a poster just said, you shouldn't need someone to pull in to see whats on the road ahead.

GreeBo

prospect wrote:

If the car ahead moves over far enough that I can pass without crossing the solid white line, then I will overtake. As the rules of the road say it is illegal to cross the white line, they do not say it is illegal to overtake.

ok well if you are ever behind me I shall make sure to drive up a tree so that you can overtake and not cross the line...

I cannot believe that I am having this argument with someone.

Seth Brundle

prospect wrote:

If the car ahead moves over far enough that I can pass without crossing the solid white line, then I will overtake. As the rules of the road say it is illegal to cross the white line, they do not say it is illegal to overtake.

From the ROTR (http://www.lireland.com/ go to ROTR/traffic signs & roadway markings/roadway markings)
"• Single or double continuous white lines along the centre of the road; all traffic must keep to the left of the line (except in an emergency or for access)."

The ROTR also state that they are an interpretation of the law. Make sure that it is legal to do this before its used as a defence.

GreeBo

prospect wrote:

As the rules of the road say it is illegal to cross the white line, they do not say it is illegal to overtake.

If there is a road sign that indicates no overtaking for the next x km, will you still overtake if the guy in front pulls in?

Vegeta

you'd fail your test for pulling in to let someone overtake you.

The guideline is maintain speed and position.

If someone wants to overtake let them do so at the next safe opportunity.

Saruman

Why do trucks usually pull in then? The answer is they are long so it requires a lot more road to get past them... if they move in its a LOT safer to get past as not only do you not need to go completely on the other side of the road.... if someone comes flying out of no where in the other direction you are not definatly going to get caught out... Same goes for a car.. its safer if they move out of the way than to FORCE them to drive on the wrong side of the road... I have seen cars ahead of me before and they want to over take some one and refuse to let them pass.. Now msotly they are going BELOW the speed limit.. like 65 on a 100kph road.. so they force them to overtake completly and then they speed up making it harder for the car to overtake... and well yuo get the idea...

Im not condinging speeding.. im just saying like the first poster that its is safer if a slower car just moves in and lets a faster car past safely without forcing someone to be even more stupid than riding up their arse and speeding...

AlanD

prospect wrote:

You can over take safely when there is no oncoming cars or obstructions, you can overtake even SAFER when the car ahead makes it so by moving to one side.

I guess I don't understand how it could be any more safer if someone pulled in a little or not. If the road ahead is clear and it's safe to pass, you can still easily drive around the car in front.

So perhaps some of us are missing your point. When you want to pass and you want the car in front to pull in, is there a car coming towards you and if the car didn't pull in, you couldn't possibly pass safely?

Sidepoint not specifically directed to you prospect: if the road in question here has a hard shoulder, what part of the law do you think will get you off if a Garda pulls you in for driving on the hard shoulder and gives you points?

maidhc

GreeBo wrote:

Why on earth should anyone have to pull in?
What defines "safely pull in"?
Using this logic you would have slower cars pulling in and out of the hard shoulder while Jimmy Mc speed limit+10 overtakes...
Crazy.
Its not a race...there is no blue flag.

What about agricultural machinery... or loaded trucks going up a hill. Would you be happy to stay behind such a vehicle for for 30 miles?

The same is true of slow drivers. There is nothing more annoying than somone who does 35-40mph on a road where you can't overtake, but where they could easily pull into the hard shoulder, and let those with more pressing issues get about their business. Most of the time it is perfectly safe to do this.

prospect

GreeBo wrote:

ok well if you are ever behind me I shall make sure to drive up a tree so that you can overtake and not cross the line...

I cannot believe that I am having this argument with someone.

Jeepers, you are fond of your extreems.
If there is not adequate space, good visability and a decent road surface, then I would not expect anyone to move to one side.

I dont know how many times I have been on a long stretch of road and a very slow vehicle will not move into an adequate hard shoulder and alow a line of faster moving vehicles pass them, safely.

It is dangerous, it is bad manners and it is agressive.

This is also from the ROTR, it is in realtion to tractors, but I am sure it can be applied to all slow moving vehicles:

"ON THE ROAD
When a tractor is being used in a public place, however infrequently, it is subject to the normal laws governing road traffic.
It is important to remember that most tractors are, of their nature, slow- moving vehicles. It is, therefore, important that the general rule to keep left be strictly observed so as not to hold up faster traffic."

prospect

GreeBo wrote:

If there is a road sign that indicates no overtaking for the next x km, will you still overtake if the guy in front pulls in?

Nope.
Usually these signs are on roads that only have one lane in each direction.

prospect

kbannon wrote:

The ROTR also state that they are an interpretation of the law. Make sure that it is legal to do this before its used as a defence.

Well if that is illegal, every motorcyclist in every city in ireland breaks the law regularly.

Vegeta

Saruman wrote:

Now msotly they are going BELOW the speed limit.. like 65 on a 100kph road.. so they force them to overtake completly and then they speed up making it harder for the car to overtake... and well yuo get the idea...

Im not condinging speeding.. im just saying like the first poster that its is safer if a slower car just moves in and lets a faster car past safely without forcing someone to be even more stupid than riding up their arse and speeding...

you are missing everyones point completely, if it is indeed safe to overtake why should the person have to pull over.

Vegeta

prospect wrote:

J
I dont know how many times I have been on a long stretch of road and a very slow vehicle will not move into an adequate hard shoulder and alow a line of faster moving vehicles pass them, safely.

It is dangerous, it is bad manners and it is agressive.

You are exaclty what's wrong with Irish drivers

jd

Vegeta wrote:

You are exaclty what's wrong with Irish drivers

Oh come on. In the states, the guy holding up the traffic would get a ticket.

prospect

AlanD wrote:

So perhaps some of us are missing your point. When you want to pass and you want the car in front to pull in, is there a car coming towards you and if the car didn't pull in, you couldn't possibly pass safely?

Sidepoint not specifically directed to you prospect: if the road in question here has a hard shoulder, what part of the law do you think will get you off if a Garda pulls you in for driving on the hard shoulder and gives you points?

I think it was pointed out here recently that you can move into the hard shoulder (except on a motorway) to allow cars pass you. Also see my post re: Tractors

Take this as an example:
A long vehicle is moving along a straight stretch of road (with no left turns) with a 100km/h limit at just 50km/h.
There is a string of 15 cars behind it, and there is a good hard shoulder.
Now which scenario do you think is safer:
1. The vehicle maintains its speed and position and each of the trailing vehicles has to invividually accellerate and pass the truck one by one. This means that the entire manouvre will involve15 vehicles driving on the wrong side of the road, take a considerable amount of time and road distance.
2. The vehicle moves into the hard shoulder maintaining its speed. The 15 cars file past in one manouvre which is quick, and does not involve any vehicle driving on the wrong side of the road.

No both these situations are safe. But, which is SAFER?

Vegeta

jd wrote:

Oh come on. In the states, the guy holding up the traffic would get a ticket.

well this is Ireland not America

12 people dead in 48 hours and people are complaining about others driving more slowly. Maybe everyone should drive a little slower

If someone in front of you is driving slowly you slow down and shut up, keep the recommended distance for that particular speed and overtake them only when an opportunity arises.

The person driving slowly has just as much right to be on the road as everyone else

EDIT: Slow driving is not allowed on the motorways anyway

scargill

I was driving to Waterford on Saturday and was toddling along at around 90 kph. I came into traffic on a decent stretch of road somewhere along the way.

There was around 10 cars in a line - almost bumper to bumper. There was less than two car spaces between each car. I reckon they were doing around 70kph.

The build up was caused by some old guy at the very front in an old Starlet. It was made worse by the two cars directly behind him who didn't want to overtake. OK - fair enough - 100 kph is the limit, not a target. But if you want to drive everywhere at 70 kph and don't want to move into the hard shoulder, could you please drive at a safe distance from the car in front so others can overtake you !!

And if there is a hard shoulder on perfectly good road, loads of visibilty, no junctions or gateways. Just pull in a little and I'll be on my way. Thanks !

AlanD

jd wrote:

Oh come on. In the states, the guy holding up the traffic would get a ticket.

you are right and that should happen here, but it's still no excuse for expecting the slower driver to pull over and create a hazardous situation where there are lots of cars taking a chance to squeeze in between the car they are passing and on coming traffic. You know it happens.

However, there is a courteous action that some people do if their slow driving is causing a line of traffic to be held up behind. The driver of the slower vehicle can actually pull in and stop. On a single lane dual carriageway, it'll mean the passing is done at low speeds and carefully and on a hard shouldered road, traffic can just move on. The slower driver won't run the risk of getting points either (although I reckon there is no chance of that anyway..what guard would pull you for that offence anyway).

prospect

Vegeta wrote:

The person driving slowly has just as much right to be on the road as everyone else

I am going to ignore your previous post.

With regard to the quoted one,
No one is arguing their right to be on the road, and to drive slowly. However, why should everyone else be held up? If i am on a 100km/h road, am I an unsafe driver for wanting to drive at that speed?

If you were driving from waterford to dublin avoiding motorways, and a guy is in front who maintains a 30km/h speed for the entire journey, can you honestly put your hand on your heart and tell me you would happily sit behind him the whole way and admire how safe a driver he is.



Here is a big revelation, you had all better sit down for it:

Just because someone drives slowly, it doesn't make them a good/safe driver.
Likewise, someone who drives at the maximum posted speed limit, does not make them a bad/unsafe driver.