Attention Irish Motorists

Vegeta

prospect wrote:

I am going to ignore your previous post.

With regard to the quoted one,
No one is arguing their right to be on the road, and to drive slowly. However, why should everyone else be held up? If i am on a 100km/h road, am I an unsafe driver for wanting to drive at that speed?

If you were driving from waterford to dublin avoiding motorways, and a guy is in front who maintains a 30km/h speed for the entire journey, can you honestly put your hand on your heart and tell me you would happily sit behind him the whole way and admire how safe a driver he is.

No I'd overtake at the first safe opportunity, it wouldn't take much as a cars acceleration is pretty good at 30kph. If there was no safe place to pass, i wouldn't pass. I definitely would not expect him to pull in on a road i don't even know

Here is a big revelation, you had all better sit down for it:

Just because someone drives slowly, it doesn't make them a good/safe driver.
Likewise, someone who drives at the maximum posted speed limit, does not make them a bad/unsafe driver.

Yes but stopping distance is hugely reduced at slower speeds. You also have more time to react to dangerous situations. Chances of death and serious injury are less in accidents at slower speeds

jd

Vegeta wrote:

well this is Ireland not America

And your point is? There is a lot we could learn from the states and other countries.

maidhc

Vegeta wrote:

If someone in front of you is driving slowly you slow down and shut up, keep the recommended distance for that particular speed and overtake them only when an opportunity arises.

People have stuff to do. Christ we don't go out driving to get wind in our hair and have a general good time. Most of us can't afford to have 20 mins added to a journey.

Vegeta wrote:

The person driving slowly has just as much right to be on the road as everyone else

No, he has to courteous to other road users, I would say drivng and well below the limit in good conditions and on a good road while refusing to pull in is exceptionally discourteous .

Vegeta

jd wrote:

And your point is? There is a lot we could learn from the states and other countries.

My point is that its only illegal to drive slowly on motorways in Ireland and that law doesn't apply to national or regional roads where the speed limits are lower for a reason. The roads are unsafe for higher speeds.

Its like comapring apples and oranges, their roads are much better than ours, straighter, wider and above all better policed.

So if you want to introduce a law to outlaw slow driving be my guest. By your reasoning every tractor that drives on a road should get a ticket instantly for slow driving

I'm sure it'll be a huge success just like penalty points.

Vegeta

maidhc wrote:

People have stuff to do. Christ we don't go out driving to get wind in our hair and have a general good time. Most of us can't afford to have 20 mins added to a journey.

Wow did you miss the point about over taking when its safe to do so. Jesus what do you guys do when there's a slow moving vehicle on a regional road or national road with no hard shoulder, let me guess you slow down and over take when its clear to do so. Well i'd rather be 20 mins late than dead on time

No, he has to courteous to other road users, I would say drivng and well below the limit in good conditions and on a good road while refusing to pull in is exceptionally discourteous .

Even though he isn't being discourteous as all he is doing is driving slowly, if you don't like it over take him. I'll entertain you, if he is driving slowly and is discourteous do you have the right to be discourteous back.....No, so you keep your distance and pass when safe. Its not rocket science.

AlanD

prospect wrote:

I think it was pointed out here recently that you can move into the hard shoulder (except on a motorway) to allow cars pass you. Also see my post re: Tractors

Take this as an example:
A long vehicle is moving along a straight stretch of road (with no left turns) with a 100km/h limit at just 50km/h.
There is a string of 15 cars behind it, and there is a good hard shoulder.
Now which scenario do you think is safer:
1. The vehicle maintains its speed and position and each of the trailing vehicles has to invividually accellerate and pass the truck one by one. This means that the entire manouvre will involve15 vehicles driving on the wrong side of the road, take a considerable amount of time and road distance.
2. The vehicle moves into the hard shoulder maintaining its speed. The 15 cars file past in one manouvre which is quick, and does not involve any vehicle driving on the wrong side of the road.

No both these situations are safe. But, which is SAFER?

I agree, there is merit in your point. There is also merit in the situation where people want to pass cars without waiting for it to be clear, so expect cars in front to pull in. See it's never going to be a clear cut situation. What you described above happens often and truck drivers generally are good at pulling in on to the hard shoulder to let the line pass. But if there's no hard shoulder and if the vehicle in front is not a truck, but a car, you cannot expect the car to pull in and let the line pass. It's still too dangerous. It's too dangerous, because people take advantage of the situation and are aggressive in their expectation to pass. I see people pass with so little space that it's no wonder accidents happen.

I've often seen people pass straddling the line and the car coming towards them hasn't seen the car until late enough and has to swerve out of the way. Of course he should have being paying attention, but that's my point, he may not and one day he won't see the car which you could be driving and bang.

My point is, there's merit in all situations, but which situation can you always ensure safety. Being safe may not eliminate all risk, it just may manage it better. So there are situations where pulling in can help, if there's a long line of traffic and pulling in means using a hard shoulder. That person pulling in should really stop, but that's rarely going to happen. Without a line of traffic and a driver just wants to get passed. The driver should just wait until there's a clear road ahead and pass when it's safe and not want the driver in front to pull in. You should never pass if there's a car coming, pulling in or not because you can never trust the other driver.

My belief isn't going to suit everyone, but perhaps some of the arrogance and expectation of behaviour from other drivers could go away and we'd have safer roads.

Often if I'm stuck behind a truck and I know there's a big straight hard shouldered road ahead. I'll wait til I get there to pass, the truck sometimes pulls in so I have 3/4's of a lane to pass him. But there's a car coming. Even though the truck has pulled in, I won't pass until the car coming towards me has gone and I can safely pass the truck giving him loads of space.

prospect

Vegeta wrote:

My point is that its only illegal to drive slowly on motorways in Ireland and that law doesn't apply to national or regional roads where the speed limits are lower for a reason.

Thats an excellent point.
And I wonder, where do the majority of fatal accidents happen? On national & regional roads, where you can drive as slow as you like, or on motorways, where it is illegal to drive below a certain limit?

jd

Vegeta wrote:

So if you want to introduce a law to outlaw slow driving be my guest. By your reasoning every tractor that drives on a road should get a ticket instantly for slow driving

I'm sure it'll be a huge success just like penalty points.

You get the ticket for holding up other traffic. You are expected to pull in when safe to do so if you are holding up traffic.
jd

prospect

AlanD wrote:

I agree, there is merit in your point. There is also merit in the situation where people want to pass cars without waiting for it to be clear, so expect cars in front to pull in. See it's never going to be a clear cut situation. What you described above happens often and truck drivers generally are good at pulling in on to the hard shoulder to let the line pass. But if there's no hard shoulder and if the vehicle in front is not a truck, but a car, you cannot expect the car to pull in and let the line pass. It's still too dangerous. It's too dangerous, because people take advantage of the situation and are aggressive in their expectation to pass. I see people pass with so little space that it's no wonder accidents happen.

I've often seen people pass straddling the line and the car coming towards them hasn't seen the car until late enough and has to swerve out of the way. Of course he should have being paying attention, but that's my point, he may not and one day he won't see the car which you could be driving and bang.

My point is, there's merit in all situations, but which situation can you always ensure safety. Being safe may not eliminate all risk, it just may manage it better. So there are situations where pulling in can help, if there's a long line of traffic and pulling in means using a hard shoulder. That person pulling in should really stop, but that's rarely going to happen. Without a line of traffic and a driver just wants to get passed. The driver should just wait until there's a clear road ahead and pass when it's safe and not want the driver in front to pull in. You should never pass if there's a car coming, pulling in or not because you can never trust the other driver.

My belief isn't going to suit everyone, but perhaps some of the arrogance and expectation of behaviour from other drivers could go away and we'd have safer roads.

Often if I'm stuck behind a truck and I know there's a big straight hard shouldered road ahead. I'll wait til I get there to pass, the truck sometimes pulls in so I have 3/4's of a lane to pass him. But there's a car coming. Even though the truck has pulled in, I won't pass until the car coming towards me has gone and I can safely pass the truck giving him loads of space.

I agree 100%, and i will refer you back to one of my earlier posts:

prospect wrote:

Exactly, what defines anything? As your example shows. But there are an infinite amount of other possible occurances, and unfortunatly not all of them will back up your argument.

To say something like "if you can't over take safely without the car infront pulling in you shouldn't be over taking" is a massive and sweeping generalisation and therfore a load of crap. There are so many individual and unique occurances on our roads that statements like that are just meaningless jibberish. There are certain times when it is true, but there are also certain times where it is not.

Vegeta

prospect wrote:

Thats an excellent point.
And I wonder, where do the majority of fatal accidents happen? On national & regional roads, where you can drive as slow as you like, or on motorways, where it is illegal to drive below a certain limit?

or maybe just maybe its because there are hundreds of miles more of regional roads and national roads.

Living in munster i can say there is zero motorway here

Vegeta

To say something like "if you can't over take safely without the car infront pulling in you shouldn't be over taking" is a massive and sweeping generalisation and therfore a load of crap. There are so many individual and unique occurances on our roads that statements like that are just meaningless jibberish. There are certain times when it is true, but there are also certain times where it is not.

Yet it applies to every road in Ireland that doesn't have a hard shoulder and there are more roads without hard shoulder than with hard shoulder.

maidhc

Vegeta wrote:

Wow did you miss the point about over taking when its safe to do so. Jesus what do you guys do when there's a slow moving vehicle on a regional road or national road with no hard shoulder, let me guess you slow down and over take when its clear to do so.

There are many roads where you simply can't overtake for miles and miles, and more miles, but where there is adequate hard shoulder for someone just to let you past...

Vegeta wrote:

Well i'd rather be 20 mins late than dead on time

Try explaining that one to someone with a deadline (for instance a tender) which cannot be missed and invariably was delayed.

Vegeta wrote:

Even though he isn't being discourteous as all he is doing is driving slowly, if you don't like it over take him. I'll entertain you, if he is driving slowly and is discourteous do you have the right to be discourteous back.....No, so you keep your distance and pass when safe. Its not rocket science.

Or he could do us all a favour, and pull in.... which incidentally is what I ALWAYS do when driving a tractor on the roads... even where I have to come to a complete stop to allow people pass. I detest people who act ignorant, and try to avoiding doing likewise.

Seth Brundle

maidhc wrote:

Try explaining that one to someone with a deadline (for instance a tender) which cannot be missed and invariably was delayed.

Is your job worth dying for?

Vegeta

maidhc wrote:

There are many roads where you simply can't overtake for miles and miles, and more miles, but where there is adequate hard shoulder for someone just to let you past...

Like what 10 miles maybe, even then if someone is only driving 50kph on a 100kph road you'd only lose 20 mins.

Try explaining that one to someone with a deadline (for instance a tender) which cannot be missed and invariably was delayed.

Anybody who drives for a living will factor in slow moving traffic into their journey times, if they don't what are they doing driving as a career.

Or he could do us all a favour, and pull in.... which incidentally is what I ALWAYS do when driving a tractor on the roads... even where I have to come to a complete stop to allow people pass. I detest people who act ignorant, and try to avoiding doing likewise.

Yeah he could pull in but he doesn't have to.

Again I ask what do you guys do when there is a slow moving vehicle on a road without a hard shoulder.

The_Magoo

I would just like too add my 2 cents:
1. There is no minimum speed on a motorway, however vehicles which cannot exceed 60kph are prohibited, as are L plates, tractors,livestock and anything less than 50cc.
2. With regard to using the hard shoulder to allow other road users to over take, the slower driver should have the manners and ability to judge if they can pull over safely, to allow faster moving traffic to pass, regardless of their speed or aggression. if you judge it is unsafe for you to pull in, then dont. If you want to stop them, join the garda force. Please do not merit the safety of slower drivers, as they tend to be completely unawares of their surroundings, from personal experience. I am not talking about the 90kph brigade on the N4. I am talking about the 55kph corsa or micra at 6.30 on a sunday evening outside Moate, completely oblivious to the 4 mile tale back, causing drivers to become restless and aggravated, leading to dangerous over takes.

prospect

kbannon wrote:

Is your job worth dying for?

No offense mate, I have read alot of your posts in the past which made sense, but this is pure trash.

Why do you assume because we want someone to move over that we are driving at horrific, unsuitable and dangerous speeds? Why is that, cause I dont understand it?

If I have to be somewhere at a certain time, and I leave in pleny of time, and drive at the speed limit (safely) and then someone who wants to drive slow impeeds my progress, which can be avoided by moving over slightly, a small gesture that wont cause them any danger or time. I would expect that driver to move over for that brief moment. (BTW, i often tow a trailer, and i ma the slow driver, and I will always allow people who want to travel faster to pass).

So this is not a case of people wanting to drive at twice the legal limit, it is a case of every driver making a simple gesture that makes everyones life safer and easier.

Seth Brundle

I didn't assume anything - I was merely addressing the response maidhc gave to Vegeta's quote.

maidhc wrote:

Vegeta wrote:

Well i'd rather be 20 mins late than dead on time

Try explaining that one to someone with a deadline (for instance a tender) which cannot be missed and invariably was delayed.

prospect

kbannon wrote:

I didn't assume anything - I was merely addressing the response maidhc gave to Vegeta's quote.

I see your point.

GreeBo

prospect wrote:

Thats an excellent point.
And I wonder, where do the majority of fatal accidents happen? On national & regional roads, where you can drive as slow as you like, or on motorways, where it is illegal to drive below a certain limit?

Perhaps they are caused by people performing dangerous overtaking?
People who should have waited until there was a safe opportunity to overtake?
Motorways have a whole lane dedicated to overtaking, we call it the overtaking lane.:rolleyes:

Vegeta

prospect wrote:

No offense mate, I have read alot of your posts in the past which made sense, but this is pure trash.

Why do you assume because we want someone to move over that we are driving at horrific, unsuitable and dangerous speeds? Why is that, cause I dont understand it?

If I have to be somewhere at a certain time, and I leave in pleny of time, and drive at the speed limit (safely) and then someone who wants to drive slow impeeds my progress, which can be avoided by moving over slightly, a small gesture that wont cause them any danger or time. I would expect that driver to move over for that brief moment. (BTW, i often tow a trailer, and i ma the slow driver, and I will always allow people who want to travel faster to pass).

So this is not a case of people wanting to drive at twice the legal limit, it is a case of every driver making a simple gesture that makes everyones life safer and easier.

the point is, if you are behind a car on a national route who is driving under the limit, you should wait until you can over take safely. The reason i say this is because if every driver shared your view that slow driver would spend the day in the hard shoulder while a line of traffic overtook him and boxed him in. That is not safe especially at night. The fact of the matter is when being overtaken you maintain speed and position and you'd fail your test for doing otherwise.

You can say its safer, but its really not.

GreeBo

Vegeta wrote:

You can say its safer, but its really not.

It's possibly safer for the idiot who is going to overtake you no matter what, but , as you say, its still not safe.

Vegeta

GreeBo wrote:

It's possibly safer for the idiot who is going to overtake you no matter what, but , as you say, its still not safe.

oh yeah its safer for the guy who is in a hurry and wants to overtake but not for the guy who has to pull in

well the law is on our side anyway, we don't have to pull over to let traffic pass and i hope its always this way.

Padwick

If you're doing the speed limit then pull over for nobody.

prospect

GreeBo wrote:

Perhaps they are caused by people performing dangerous overtaking?
People who should have waited until there was a safe opportunity to overtake?
Motorways have a whole lane dedicated to overtaking, we call it the overtaking lane.:rolleyes:

Exactly, so it is not speed related. :rolleyes:
also a driver moving into the hard shoulder creates the same effect as the overtaking lane, so by your rationale above, if slow drivers moved out of the way, road deaths would drop... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

prospect

I am not sure you guys are really clued in.

If you can move over safely, why wouldn't you? Rules and regulations aside? Are you deliberitaly trying to hold everyone up or are you trying to enforce your own speed limits?

You have no right to impeed the progress of another motorist, and you have no right to attempt to enforce the law.

However, legally you have to keep as far left as possible and as already stated "It is, therefore, important that the general rule to keep left be strictly observed so as not to hold up faster traffic."

Let me give you a scenario (in the over exagerated style of the ANTI SPEED debaters):
You are driving along at 80km/h on a 100km/h road and a guy comes up behind you, and he is most probably breaking the speed limit. It is obvious that he wants to get past you, but there is oncoming traffic. There is a hard shoulder which is perfectly suitable for you to move into briefly to allow him pass, but you decide not to. Eventually he flashs you and beeps his horn, but you decide to stick to your speed and road position.
Then he decides to perform an overtaking manouver, and suddenly a car comes from the opposite direction and they collide head on.
The lady in the oncoming car and her husband are killed instantly leaving 4 kids orphaned. And the guy in the overtaking car is killed, along with his 2 year old daughter whom he was trying to ruch to hospital as she had fallen seriously ill, and no ambulances were available.

This accident would not have happened if you had moved left for about 10/15 seconds, and then moved back out to the right again. How do you feel now about your silly ideologies....

Vegeta

prospect wrote:

Exactly, so it is not speed related. :rolleyes:
also a driver moving into the hard shoulder creates the same effect as the overtaking lane, so by your rationale above, if slow drivers moved out of the way, road deaths would drop... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

wrong the hard shoulder is not designed for sustained traffic, especially if there is a solid white line in the middle of the road. The solid white line is usually there because there is a junction coming up or some form of obstacle or the area has been simply deemed unsafe for overtaking.

Padwick

prospect wrote:

Let me give you a scenario (in the over exagerated style of the ANTI SPEED debaters):
You are driving along at 80km/h on a 100km/h road and a guy comes up behind you, and he is most probably breaking the speed limit. It is obvious that he wants to get past you, but there is oncoming traffic. There is a hard shoulder which is perfectly suitable for you to move into briefly to allow him pass, but you decide not to. Eventually he flashs you and beeps his horn, but you decide to stick to your speed and road position.
Then he decides to perform an overtaking manouver, and suddenly a car comes from the opposite direction and they collide head on.
The lady in the oncoming car and her husband are killed instantly leaving 4 kids orphaned. And the guy in the overtaking car is killed, along with his 2 year old daughter whom he was trying to ruch to hospital as she had fallen seriously ill, and no ambulances were available.

His fault for speeding, tailgating, and flashing his lights.

Vegeta

prospect wrote:

I am not sure you guys are really clued in.

You've convinced me you are a dangerous and aggresive driver

If you can move over safely, why wouldn't you? Rules and regulations aside? Are you deliberitaly trying to hold everyone up or are you trying to enforce your own speed limits?

Rules and regulations aside, sorry but we cant pick and choose what ones to obey. Its all or nothing.

You have no right to impeed the progress of another motorist, and you have no right to attempt to enforce the law.

You have no right to bully motorists into pulling in. The motorist behind me has no right to force me into a dangerous road position therefore breaking the law.

However, legally you have to keep as far left as possible and as already stated "It is, therefore, important that the general rule to keep left be strictly observed so as not to hold up faster traffic."

If we follow that logic everyone would have to drive in the hard shoulder all the time, keeping as far left as possible.

Let me give you a scenario (in the over exagerated style of the ANTI SPEED debaters):
You are driving along at 80km/h on a 100km/h road and a guy comes up behind you, and he is most probably breaking the speed limit. It is obvious that he wants to get past you, but there is oncoming traffic. There is a hard shoulder which is perfectly suitable for you to move into briefly to allow him pass, but you decide not to. Eventually he flashs you and beeps his horn, but you decide to stick to your speed and road position.
Then he decides to perform an overtaking manouver, and suddenly a car comes from the opposite direction and they collide head on.
The lady in the oncoming car and her husband are killed instantly leaving 4 kids orphaned. And the guy in the overtaking car is killed, along with his 2 year old daughter whom he was trying to ruch to hospital as she had fallen seriously ill, and no ambulances were available.

This accident would not have happened if you had moved left for about 10/15 seconds, and then moved back out to the right again. How do you feel now about your silly ideologies....

No the accident would not have happened if the tosser in the car behind had not been willing to overtake so dangerously. Its not illegal to drive slowly but it is illegal to drive dangerously like the guy in the example you gave.

prospect

I am afraid you are wrong, I am neither a a dangerour, nor agressive driver.

You show me a rule that says you cannot pull into the hard shoulder to allow a faster moving driver pass you.

I never mentioned bullying, you assumed it. I do not drive to close to vehicles, nor do flash them or beep. I wait till its safe to pass, or until they move over and allow me pass. I do expect a slower moving vehicle to move over as is stated in the Irish Rules Of The Road.

In the case of the example, yhe accident happened because the driver was in the wrong frame of mind to be driving, however it could have been prevent had you obeyed the Rules Of The Road.

I have had enough of you lot talking pure rubbish, please read the following extracts from the Irish Rules Of The Road, and then cop on to yourselves:

• Single broken yellow line along the edge of the roadway - indicates the edge of a carriageway where a hard shoulder is normally provided. The hard shoulder is not an extra traffic lane and should not normally be used as such by traffic other than cyclists or pedestrians.
(If a driver wishes to allow a following vehicle to overtake, use can be made temporarily of the hard shoulder in order to move out of the way if there are no cyclists/pedestrians already using it).

• Single or double continuous white lines along the centre of the road; all traffic must keep to the left of the line (except in an emergency or for access).

A driver must generally drive as near to the left hand side of the road as is necessary to allow approaching traffic to pass and following traffic to overtake on the right

It is important to remember that most tractors are, of their nature, slow- moving vehicles. It is, therefore, important that the general rule to keep left be strictly observed so as not to hold up faster traffic (this can, obviously, be applied to slow moving vehicles)

maidhc

prospect wrote:

If you can move over safely, why wouldn't you? Rules and regulations aside? Are you deliberitaly trying to hold everyone up or are you trying to enforce your own speed limits?

Three cheers for self righteous drivers... from the same people that brought us "overtaking lane hoggers", "I'm not letting you out of this busy junction", and last but not least "40mph is the ideal speed for all occasions, even outside a school".

I just don't get it. I had a northern driver up my rear (even though I was doing something over the limit) one day on the way to dublin. I pulled over a left him on his way, he was happy, and I was much happier not to see his eyeballs in my rear view mirror. Everyone benefitted.

Likewise when I am driving a tractor or pulling a tralier i DONT LIKE having a queue behind me. It doesn't make me feel good, and considering most hard shoulders are the same quality as the rest of the road, for the life of me I dont see the problem with pulling over.