Attention Irish Motorists

AlanD

prospect wrote:

Let me give you a scenario (in the over exagerated style of the ANTI SPEED debaters):
You are driving along at 80km/h on a 100km/h road and a guy comes up behind you, and he is most probably breaking the speed limit. It is obvious that he wants to get past you, but there is oncoming traffic. There is a hard shoulder which is perfectly suitable for you to move into briefly to allow him pass, but you decide not to. Eventually he flashs you and beeps his horn, but you decide to stick to your speed and road position.
Then he decides to perform an overtaking manouver, and suddenly a car comes from the opposite direction and they collide head on.
The lady in the oncoming car and her husband are killed instantly leaving 4 kids orphaned. And the guy in the overtaking car is killed, along with his 2 year old daughter whom he was trying to ruch to hospital as she had fallen seriously ill, and no ambulances were available.

without any shadow of doubt, this accident is caused solely by the passing driver. He should have seen that it was not safe to pass out and waited until it was safe. The driver of the car who was travelling at 80km/h was not in the wrong at all. But I do see your point, it just doesn't justify what that man did to pass out and kill this family.

This is the point, you can never have any expectation from drivers on the road. They may not see you and hit you or they may not pull over when you want them to.

This goes on to small things like indicating. You can't assume that if someone has an indicator on, the driver is going to go in the direction of the indicator.

My advice? expect nothing and make no assumptions. You can only look after yourself.

Seth Brundle

maidhc wrote:

considering most hard shoulders are the same quality as the rest of the road, for the life of me I dont see the problem with pulling over.

The hard shoulder is (AFAIK) stronger than the main portion of tarmac but as it frequently contains glass and other rubbish it is not always safe to pull over despite how it looks.

(before people jump on me for saying this - I pull over also!)

saobh_ie

saobh_ie wrote:

If you can't over take safely without the car infront pulling in you shouldn't be over taking.

Let me add to that... It's nice when people do pull in to make things faster and to let you see more but you should be able to complete an overtake yourself and not need help.

prospect wrote:

Well if that is illegal, every motorcyclist in every city in ireland breaks the law regularly.

Don't forget us in the villages & country, we break the law too...

As regards solid white lines being places where its dangerous to overtake. Quite often they're not... conversly, I've seen broken white lines in places where it would be just about impossible to safely complete an overtake in any car less than a Ferrari. So I wouldn't feel too bad about slicing over the odd solid white line, except for the whole it being illegal jazz.

kbannon wrote:

The hard shoulder is (AFAIK) stronger than the main portion of tarmac but as it frequently contains glass and other rubbish it is not always safe to pull over despite how it looks.

I doubt it would be stronger, it would be of the same quality as the road or of lesser quality (because it wouldn't be required to carry the same load). But your right about the amount of rubbish sitting on them. I would always access whats in there before putting my car in there for anything other than an emergency but truth be told I do most of my driving on the wrong side of the road. =D

AlanD

does anyone know why the Dept. of Transport/Justice made driving on the hard shoulder a penalty points offence?

Apart from the silly answers this may produce, does anyone actually know?

prospect

saobh_ie wrote:

Let me add to that... It's nice when people do pull in to make things faster and to let you see more but you should be able to complete an overtake yourself and not need help.

He he he, if you had said that the first time you would have saved a 2 page argument, lol

However, from what I have dug up in the ROTR, it suggests that it is expected that slower vehicles do move over, even into a hard shoulder, if it is safe to do so.
Although, common courtesy tells us this and you would think they would not need to publish it in the ROTR, but luckily the people who compiled it predicted that some other people are just too stubborn, self-righteous and ignorant to allow others get to their destinations in a safe and timely manner.

Sorry about the cities thing, you're right, I didn't think that one through.

prospect

AlanD wrote:

does anyone know why the Dept. of Transport/Justice made driving on the hard shoulder a penalty points offence?

Apart from the silly answers this may produce, does anyone actually know?

I think it only applies to the morotway.
Also, the term "Driving in the hard shoulder" does not apply to moving in briefly to allow someone to pass. It refers to continually driving along it for and part of a journey. This is obviously not a good idea, as it will become a traffic lane and therefore not serve its purpose effectivly as an emergency lane.

saobh_ie

prospect wrote:

He he he, if you had said that the first time you would have saved a 2 page argument, lol

My apoligies.

Seth Brundle

AlanD wrote:

does anyone know why the Dept. of Transport/Justice made driving on the hard shoulder a penalty points offence?

Apart from the silly answers this may produce, does anyone actually know?

The offence is "Driving on the hard shoulder on a motorway" and was made penalty point-able becasue it is inherently dangerous. The hard shoulder is for emergency or breakdown use only - not to skip the queue on the M50.

AlanD

kbannon wrote:

The offence is "Driving on the hard shoulder on a motorway" and was made penalty point-able becasue it is inherently dangerous. The hard shoulder is for emergency or breakdown use only - not to skip the queue on the M50.

thanks for that.....makes sense.

And just so people know, I do pull in to let people pass where I can and where it's safe. I'm just against the whole thing of aggressive drivers expecting people to pull in and let them pass all while there's cars coming. You know it happens and it's very very dangerous to pass a pulled in car while there's oncoming traffic.

prospect

AlanD wrote:

And just so people know, I do pull in to let people pass where I can and where it's safe. I'm just against the whole thing of aggressive drivers expecting people to pull in and let them pass all while there's cars coming. You know it happens and it's very very dangerous to pass a pulled in car while there's oncoming traffic.

I am of the very same opinion.

Anan1

AlanD -

Sorry for going off topic, but how much are you looking for for the Peugeot 607?

Vegeta

prospect wrote:

I do expect a slower moving vehicle to move over as is stated in the Irish Rules Of The Road.

I have had enough of you lot talking pure rubbish, please read the following extracts from the Irish Rules Of The Road, and then cop on to yourselves:

• Single broken yellow line along the edge of the roadway - indicates the edge of a carriageway where a hard shoulder is normally provided. The hard shoulder is not an extra traffic lane and should not normally be used as such by traffic other than cyclists or pedestrians.
(If a driver wishes to allow a following vehicle to overtake, use can be made temporarily of the hard shoulder in order to move out of the way if there are no cyclists/pedestrians already using it).
)

The important thing to notice there is choice, you don't have to pull over.

If i were driving a tractor or a jeep with heavy trailer doing half the speed limit of course i'd pull in, if i'm driving my car and doing 10kph under the speed limit then not a chance.

Also the problem with the new penalty points for hardshoulder driving is that it doesn't state for how long you have to drive in there, each garda could see it differently.

jd

Vegeta wrote:

.

Also the problem with the new penalty points for hardshoulder driving is that it doesn't state for how long you have to drive in there, each garda could see it differently.

Points for driving in the hard shoulder of a motorway. (Full Stop)

The hard shoulder on a motorway is for emergencies. BTW, this does not include answering your mobile or adjusting your makeup..

Vegeta

prospect wrote:

I think it only applies to the morotway.
Also, the term "Driving in the hard shoulder" does not apply to moving in briefly to allow someone to pass. .

JD this is what i was questioning ^^^

jd

Vegeta wrote:

JD this is what i was questioning ^^^

oh I see,
No- you can't pull over to the hard shoulder on a motorway to "let someone by"..:rolleyes:

prospect

Vegeta wrote:

The important thing to notice there is choice, you don't have to pull over.

I know that, I never disputed it. But certain people were using the hard shoulder (not on a motorway) as an excuse to remain in the driving lane blocking other drivers.

However, you will not in one of the other extracts, it states that slow vehicles (tractors are named) should not impeed faster vehicles.

I am glad we are all coming to agreement here, as this discussion is getting a bit long winded. Is it safe to assume the following:

1. The majority of slower moving vehicles would move over briefly to allow a faster moving vehicle pass them, assuming it is safe to do so.

2. The majority of faster moving vehicles would not put a slow vehicle under pressure and try to bully them out of the way. They would wait until the driver of the slow moving vehicle is happy and comfortable to move out of the way briefly.

prospect

Vegeta wrote:

JD this is what i was questioning ^^^

I think you are mis reading my post.

"I think it [penalty points for driving in the hard shoulder] only applies to motorways"

Then the remainder of the post was regarding all other roads with a hard shoulder.

BrianD3

This whole thread would have been avoided if the authorities were in any way competent and had put some effort into a) road design incl markings b) the rules of the road c) driver training

As already posted it says in the ROTR "if a driver wishes" he may move into the HS to let a faster vehicle by. What sort of bullsh1t is this? It sounds like some civil servant is covering his ass in the event that there is a crash involving a vehicle travelling in the hard shoulder. The use of the term "temporarily" is also a load of crap and open to interpretation. Eg if I'm driving a tractor at 20 mph and I stay in the HS for 5 minutes to let a continuous stream of cars go by am I in the HS "temporarily" or not

The hard shoulder is either safe to drive in as a slow lane or it isn't. It shoudn't be left up to the discretion of individual drivers to use it if they "wish" IMO. AFAIK this is the only country in Europe where we have this half arsed measure of a hard shoulder which you would think is for emergencies but also doubles as a slow lane if a driver "wishes"

If the HS is to be used as a slow lane then surely the ROTR should say something like
"vehicles travelling below x speed MUST travel in the hard shoulder"

At the moment the situation is a shambles.
*people getting confused about the difference between a HS with a solid yellow line and one with a broken yellow line. BTW dual carriageways normally have the latter, tractor drivers seem confused about whether they can/should use it or not

*small areas of yellow hatch markings suddenly appearing in hard shoulders all over the country, vast majority of drivers haven't even noticed them. Where is the publicity to inform them?

*using the HS as an acceleration/deceleration lane, should you or shouldn't you?

*pedestrians and cyclists not aware that there may be cars travelling at a fair speed in the HS

*drivers pulling out of concealed entrances into the HS because they assume it will be clear as they don't regard it as part of the road

*drivers thinking that everyone in front is obliged to jump into the HS out of their way no matter what the conditions. Result: bullying, frustration, impatience, road rage.

*drivers getting confused between broken white lines and broken yellow lines (sounds unbelievable that people would get confused in this way but its true)

*drivers half pulling into the HS to let others overtake. Result: there's nearly but not quite enough room to overtake safely without crossing the centre line

*foreign drivers/tourists getting confused and appalled by the Irish attitude to hard shoulders

A shambles.

maidhc

Vegeta wrote:

if i'm driving my car and doing 10kph under the speed limit then not a chance.

Out of interest, why not?

(Assume the road is safe, conditions are good, and a steady stream of traffic from a munster final is coming the otherway making overtaking impossible for the next 30kms)

maidhc

BrianD3 wrote:

*people getting confused about the difference between a HS with a solid yellow line and one with a broken yellow line. BTW dual carriageways normally have the latter, tractor drivers seem confused about whether they can/should use it or not

Dual carriageways, the hard shoulder and tractors is a very unsatisfactory issue.

Do you:

a) Drive on "the road" with the risk of being rearended by a dozy driver who doesn't realise that they doing 40mph more than you.
b) Drive on the hard shoulder and pull out when you meet a merging lane.
c) Alternate randomly between both
d) Ban tractors from dual carriageways

junkyard

In my opinion the only time a tractor should be on the road is when its crossing one to get to a field. Tractors have no place on a road as far as I'm concerned. The number of tractors on the road lately is unbelievable, they seem to have taken over the job of tipper trucks drawing earth and builders rubble. I wonder is it the fact that the insurance is cheaper, the drivers aren't as qualified as a truck driver, tractors run on marked diesel and maybe the fact that tractors don't have to be DOE tested? A lot of questions need to be answered here. I know a lot of hauliers who had to give up their business over these guys and others are struggling to survive.

Saruman

Vegeta wrote:

you are missing everyones point completely, if it is indeed safe to overtake why should the person have to pull over.

Someone may have posted the reason.. i have not read all the posts since yours.. anyway ...

It should be obvious.. im surprised it needs to pointed out.. If someone pulls in.. firstly you can see everything instead of having to pull out and look and then move into the other lane..
More importantly.... The unexpected!! If someone pulls out from a small laneway etc and im overtaking (safely as I had thought) then I now have an oncoming car!! If im not over all on the wrong side of the road.. the unexpected is NOT fatal nor even an issue!! Im not in his path so there is no problem.

And most importantly... If the car in front moves aside.. then its clear indication that its safe to move past.

I mean you tell me.. have you ever sat behind an old granny on a 100kph road and she is barely even doing 50kph.. you cant overtake as there are too many cars heading the other direction. Can you honestly tell me that after 30 mins or more of this you would not be at boiling point and ready to just go for it and pray you make it?

Trucks have pulled in for me loads of time WITH oncoming traffic. I HAVE gone past them when it was safe to do so. It takes far less time to accelerate in straight line than it does for you to pull into another lane and do so. And the road is wide enough for truck and my car with room to spare on both sides of me. If it was not, I would not.. and have not overtaken until it was safe to do so..

Jaysus its common sense, common courtesy and fecking simple. There is NO reason why you or any of the others condemning it should do so. I mean for feck sake I one had a guard who was going slow, probably looking for somewhere move in to let me pass before he moved back.. I thanked him and went on!!

Fighting Irish

scargill wrote:

I was driving to Waterford on Saturday and was toddling along at around 90 kph. I came into traffic on a decent stretch of road somewhere along the way.

There was around 10 cars in a line - almost bumper to bumper. There was less than two car spaces between each car. I reckon they were doing around 70kph.

The build up was caused by some old guy at the very front in an old Starlet. It was made worse by the two cars directly behind him who didn't want to overtake. OK - fair enough - 100 kph is the limit, not a target. But if you want to drive everywhere at 70 kph and don't want to move into the hard shoulder, could you please drive at a safe distance from the car in front so others can overtake you !!

And if there is a hard shoulder on perfectly good road, loads of visibilty, no junctions or gateways. Just pull in a little and I'll be on my way. Thanks !

Post Of The Thread award goes to ^



Its simple, it should be common sense for everyone.

Fighting Irish

Vegeta wrote:

The important thing to notice there is choice, you don't have to pull over.

If i were driving a tractor or a jeep with heavy trailer doing half the speed limit of course i'd pull in, if i'm driving my car and doing 10kph under the speed limit then not a chance.

Also the problem with the new penalty points for hardshoulder driving is that it doesn't state for how long you have to drive in there, each garda could see it differently.

Yes we all understand that, nobody is saying "HEY IF I AM DRIVING FASTER THAN YOU PULL IN AND GET THE FU(K OUTTA MY WAY"

Everyone means that on good big roads if you see a car driving behind you that looks like he wants to overtake just pull in slighty(you don't have to go into the hard shoulder just staying right over to the hard shoulder line would do)

Saruman

Im curous about something.. for the drivers who think no one should ever move into the hard shoulder.. have you ever driven along at the speed limit and come across a tractor who moves into the hard shoulder?? What did YOU do?
1: Did you slow down a little and then move past him thanking him for being so nice?
2: Or did you pretend he did not move in... wait till there is gap in oncoming traffic and overtake on the other side of the road.. ignoring the fact he had pulled in and think to yourself.. that farmer is an asshole for pulling in to let me pass safely... ?

Just curious if people who are anti pulling in could answer that question and think about their response before they do it!! Might be interesting to question yourself... i would be surprised if anyone did the second one #

Oh i agree about the space between cars... the rules of the road are clear... you are supposed to leave enough space between you and the car in front if you are not going to overtake so someone else can do it and get past you!

On a slightly different note.... we need to have more "slow lanes" on country roads... plenty of places we can put them... all thats required is a few hours of re painting the lines. I love driving to cork.. as soon as i hit county cork there are slow lanes every few miles. I do not worry being stuck behind a truck or slow driver as i know in a few mins i can overtake him when he moves into a slow lane.

If we had them on all major routes then drivers would be less anxious to get past slower vehicles as soon as they can and more would be content to wait a few mins for the next oppertunity.

Oh and for those who are not aware.. a slow lane is simply where the hard shoulder no longer exists and is considered a lane for traffic!! If its safe for existing slow lanes.. why is it so dangerous to move into a hard shoulder where its clearly safe to do so?

RiderOnTheStorm

kensutz wrote:

If I see someone tearing up the road behind me and I'm at the limit I refuse to let him pass me even if he's up the arse of the car. Stick to the limits and be sensible.

I agree 100%. If you are driving at the max limit, why should you pull in and help him/her break the law? If you help them to speed and they kill someone, how will you feel?

Also, just because someone is behind you doesnt mean they want to overtake. If they turn on their indicator then that means they want to overtake and you can deicde if you want to pull over a bit.

maidhc

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:

I agree 100%. If you are driving at the max limit, why should you pull in and help him/her break the law? If you help them to speed and they kill someone, how will you feel?

If they rear end you in a pile-up and kill you how will you feel, or if they make a botched overtaking attempt and cause carnage how will you feel.

I always think it is best to drive in a way that enhances safety as much as possible, and let the law enforcement to the gardaí.

Vegeta

Fighting Irish wrote:

Yes we all understand that, nobody is saying "HEY IF I AM DRIVING FASTER THAN YOU PULL IN AND GET THE FU(K OUTTA MY WAY"

No one has said it but why is this an issue so if people are not thinking it

Everyone means that on good big roads if you see a car driving behind you that looks like he wants to overtake just pull in slighty(you don't have to go into the hard shoulder just staying right over to the hard shoulder line would do)

ok well you have to drive as far left as allowed so you have just described normal driving. Yes i drive like that and so should everyone else as there is no choice there.

Again the reason i don't pull in to the hard shoulder when doing slightly under the speed limit is as follows.

Number one reason, getting boxed in by a line of cars overtaking. I don't know how many times i have seen a truck driver pull in and a string of cars over take. The truck driver who is caged into the hard shoulder comes to an obstacle (junction, hard shoulder ends, someone pulling out of their home, a tractor a parked car, a person cycling, a person walking their dog etc etc etc) and has to break heavily or pull out suddenly to avoid an accident.

The driver who is in the hard shoulder is at a slightly higher risk than he would be if he stayed in the normal lane holding the proper road position. I am sorry but if you say otherwise you are just wrong.

I don't think the driver should have to pull in and put themselves at this slightly elevated risk. My dad is in the fire brigade and I have heard way too many stories of people being killed by pulling into the hard shoulder and something going wrong.

Vegeta

maidhc wrote:

I always think it is best to drive in a way that enhances safety as much as possible, and let the law enforcement to the gardaí.

Pulling over will enhance the safety of the motorist doing the over taking but not yours

scargill

Saruman wrote:

On a slightly different note.... we need to have more "slow lanes" on country roads... plenty of places we can put them... all thats required is a few hours of re painting the lines. I love driving to cork.. as soon as i hit county cork there are slow lanes every few miles. I do not worry being stuck behind a truck or slow driver as i know in a few mins i can overtake him when he moves into a slow lane.

This is the only real solution - we need an awful lot more of roads like this.