Attention Irish Motorists

prospect

Vegeta wrote:

wow do you lose your cool on the roads so easily? No wonder you want others to get out of your way

we both know the ROTR, why do you keep bringing them up. They cant prove me wrong and you know it. That's why it bothers you so

The reason I don't pull in is because the hard shoulder is a dangerous place. If you don't think so fine. Still not going to pull into a lane at high speed which is not a standard width on all roads, has house, field and business entrances onto it, has debris, grit and dust, cyclists and people.

If that makes me an inconsiderate driver then i better get a bumper sticker saying so

Luckily the law favours my view and does not make me pull in there

we can argue for as long as you want but until the ROTR(which you keep bringing up) change then i am perfectly correct to stay in the normal lane if I want

I am perfectly cool, and you should remember your insult on post number 58 on page 2 of this discussion, which you have since edited.

Regarding the ROTR, I now see why you refuse to move, as you obviously have intellectual difficulties understanding what they say, and hence your bad attitude.

So my final comment on this matter is that you should print out this discussion and read it really slowly, and remember that:
I have proven that according to the ROTR you can legally use the hard shoulder to allow faster moving vehicles pass you.
I have proven that according to the ROTR you should not deliberatly impeed the progress of faster moving vehicles.
I have proven that the hard shoulder is suitable for the purpose of allowing faster vehicles pass you, as otherwise it wouldn't allow you to use it in the ROTR.

You have gone from:
Never moving out of the way,
to
Not being able to move out of the way as it illegal,
to
OK, its not illegal, but its not safe, the hard shoulders are not suitable
to
Well, They are suitable, but it is not their intended purpose
to
Actually, I do move out of way, but only when I am going really really slow...
to
I have no basis for not moving, but I am so stubborn I am going to ignore all the facts & proof presented to me throughout this discussion.


All you have proven is that you are stubborn, and obviously have questionable driving standards.


Thanks for an interesting discussion though, I enjoyed it up until your argument crumbled and you let yourself down in the last few posts.

Bye bye

GreeBo

prospect wrote:

I have proven that according to the ROTR you should not deliberatly impeed the progress of faster moving vehicles.

So not driving on the hard shoulder is deliberately impeeding others?
Man its no wonder hundreds die each year.
The ROTR say that you should abide by the keep left mentality so as to not impede faster moving vehicles.

Heres an example.
There is bunch of say 10 cars on a road where the posted limit is 80.
The first is doing 60. (A)
The next 4 cars want to do 80.
the next is doing 70 (B)
and the last 4 also want to do 80.
Car (B) pulls into the hardshoulder to let the 4 cars behind pass
As he does this car (A) pulls in to let the 4 behind him pass.
So now A & B car blocked in by overtaking cars but yet B is moving faster than A.
What happens?
Where would you like car A to go?

Hobbes

Here was me thinking when someone is driving up my ass they are saying "Hi! I'm a fukin loon of a driver that wants to get myself or youself killed but I am hoping you will slow right down to safe braking distance for me so I don't accidently smash into the back of you, oh and I will probably call you a wanker when you do slow down and I over take because I expected you to drive yourself into a ditch to accomodate me.. cheers".

The hard shoulder isn't for driving in, it is for stopping in case of emergencies. If you have to pull into the hard shoulder to let someone get by odds on it wasn't safe for them to overtake in the first case.

note to tailgaters.. SLOW THE FUK DOWN.

Vegeta

prospect wrote:

I am perfectly cool, and you should remember your insult on post number 58 on page 2 of this discussion, which you have since edited.

Regarding the ROTR, I now see why you refuse to move, as you obviously have intellectual difficulties understanding what they say, and hence your bad attitude.

So my final comment on this matter is that you should print out this discussion and read it really slowly, and remember that:
I have proven that according to the ROTR you can legally use the hard shoulder to allow faster moving vehicles pass you.
I have proven that according to the ROTR you should not deliberatly impeed the progress of faster moving vehicles.
I have proven that the hard shoulder is suitable for the purpose of allowing faster vehicles pass you, as otherwise it wouldn't allow you to use it in the ROTR.


You have gone from:

Never moving out of the way

Never once said that

Not being able to move out of the way as it illegal

Nope jus said you'd fail your test, jus like you fail your test for letting other drivers off or waving at people in other cars

OK, its not illegal, but its not safe, the hard shoulders are not suitable

Has been my position since the start

Well, They are suitable, but it is not their intended purpose

Neer once said they were suitable

Actually, I do move out of way, but only when I am going really really slow...

and i would if i was travelling slowly enough (tractor ect) that i felt i could stop if anything unexpected happened

I have no basis for not moving, but I am so stubborn I am going to ignore all the facts & proof presented to me throughout this discussion.

Fatcs are on my side mate, the law says I don't have to pull in

All you have proven is that you are stubborn, and obviously have questionable driving standards.


Thanks for an interesting discussion though, I enjoyed it up until your argument crumbled and you let yourself down in the last few posts.

Bye bye

yup you're so cool you resort to ad hominem attacks.

Post my insult if you wish go on do it. I am going nowhere i'll wait for you. You can see when the post was. Its on page number 3 by the way.

I have never said the hard shoulder was suitable, that has been the main point of my arguement for several pages now. Maybe try reading that out slowly. I THINK THE HARD SHOULDER IS MORE DANGEROUS THAN THE MAIN LANE. thought i'd make it a little bit clearer for you.

Are you saying good bye to us cos you cant take the law is on my side and not yours or cos you are just plain wrong.

prospect

Vegeta wrote:

that has been the main point of my arguement for several pages now.

Are you saying good bye to us cos you cant take the law is on my side and not yours or cos you are just plain wrong.

PROVE either of the above.
I have proven it is suitable.
I have proven that the law suggests you move out of the way.
You have no proof of anything you say.

I mentioned your insult, because you accused me of loosing my cool, conveniently forgetting your earlier outburst.

Lack of proof, continued over exagerration, micsguided assumptions about my driving ability and intentions have dogged your point of view to date.

I NEVER said in this argument that you must move over. I have always acknowledged that it is your choice to move over, but you cannot provide a proven solid and grounded argument why you wouldn't move over.

If you did, this conversation would have ended pages ago, but rather than conceed that you have no reasonable grounds to maintian road position, you try to nit pick details and re-hash old points.

You have already admitted that the only reason you will not move out of the way at 90km/h is that you don't want to!
So why make up all this safety BS that simply isn't true? Just admit that you are the type of person that likes to interfere in other peoples driving rather than make a very brief & safe manouvre on the road to allow them pass.

GreeBo

prospect wrote:

Just admit that you are the type of person that likes to interfere in other peoples driving rather than make a very brief & safe manouvre on the road to allow them pass.

Ehh hello?
You are the one who wants to interfere in another driving by getting them to move over!!
We have already shown you that its not safe to drive on the hard shoulder, if it was it would be a lane.

Fey!

Much as I'm enjoying watching the hangbags-at-twenty-paces (covered by driver A in 0.22 seconds, and driver by in 0.34 seconds), maybe someone should end this thread.

Not everyone feels safe pulling onto the hard shoulder, and if they don't want to, they don't have to. Some people do pull into it, to whom I say "thanks for the consideration". Some only feel comfortable driving well below the limit which, whilst frustrating for a lot of us behind them, is staying within their abilities.

Personally, if I come up behind a slower driver and am stuck behind them for a while, I will give them a single headlight flash before I attempt to overtake them. This is to warn them of my intentions - I've lost count of the number of times I've been about to overtake when the person in font slams their brakes and swings into the house/road across from us without bothering to indicate, and I'd prefer that they know I'm there before I do that, as if they can't use an indicator, what are the chances they'll check a mirror or look over their shoulder? Some people may consider this rude or haughty, but at the end of the day, I'd prefer to end the day in my own bed rather than a hospital bed.

And when someone does decide to leave me a bit more space to go past them, I'll always give them a flash of the hazard lights to say thanks, the same way as I'd give a quick wave to someone who lets me out of a junction. After all, they're being mannerly to me, so I should be mannerly back, shouldn't I?

Anyway, that's the end of my rant. I'm not saying I agree with either side here - they both need to compromise a bit, IMHO.

But that's just my opinion, so why should it effect anyone else?

Vegeta

prospect wrote:

PROVE either of the above.
I have proven it is suitable.

How by your word alone. I have posted paragraphs from wikipedia. You have given your opinion. At least I tried.

You have no proof of anything you say.

Like what that houses are built on the side of the road, cars pull up in the hard shoulder, people cycle in the hard shoulder, there is dirt and debris on the hard shoulder. The hard shoulders throughout the country are not a standard width.

Well if i have to go out and catalogue this for you, maybe you could open your eyes and see them for yourself

I mentioned your insult, because you accused me of loosing my cool, conveniently forgetting your earlier outburst.

Post my insult go on. I have not edited that post you mentioned since yesterday so go on post it.

Lack of proof, continued over exagerration, micsguided assumptions about my driving ability and intentions have dogged your point of view to date.

What my point of view that is supported by the ROTR that you don't have to pull in if you don't want. Yup no proof what so ever except the ROTR which you seem to love

I NEVER said in this argument that you must move over. I have always acknowledged that it is your choice to move over, but you cannot provide a proven solid and grounded argument why you wouldn't move over.

houses are built on the side of the road, cars pull up in the hard shoulder, people cycle in the hard shoulder, there is dirt and debris on the hard shoulder. The hard shoulders throughout the country are not a standard width. All these reasons should do, one is enough to get someone killed

If you did, this conversation would have ended pages ago, but rather than conceed that you have no reasonable grounds to maintian road position, you try to nit pick details and re-hash old points.

Says the guy quoting the ROTR over and over, even though they support my point of view more than yours.

You have already admitted that the only reason you will not move out of the way at 90km/h is that you don't want to!

Have never said that, quote me where i did.

So why make up all this safety BS that simply isn't true? Just admit that you are the type of person that likes to interfere in other peoples driving rather than make a very brief & safe manouvre on the road to allow them pass.

Yeah I admit it, i love to interfere with others peoples driving. I have no consideration for my own safety at all. I expect every driver to bow to my needs.

Can you honestly say it is safer drive a short period in the hard shoulder with its proximity to houses, field entrances, business entrances, cyclists, parked cars, people, dirt, debris or to stay in the main lane?

prospect

Vegeta wrote:

How by your word alone. I have posted paragraphs from wikipedia. You have given your opinion. At least I tried.



Like what that houses are built on the side of the road, cars pull up in the hard shoulder, people cycle in the hard shoulder, there is dirt and debris on the hard shoulder. The hard shoulders throughout the country are not a standard width.

Well if i have to go out and catalogue this for you, maybe you could open your eyes and see them for yourself



Post my insult go on. I have not edited that post you mentioned since yesterday so go on post it.



What my point of view that is supported by the ROTR that you don't have to pull in if you don't want. Yup no proof what so ever except the ROTR which you seem to love



houses are built on the side of the road, cars pull up in the hard shoulder, people cycle in the hard shoulder, there is dirt and debris on the hard shoulder. The hard shoulders throughout the country are not a standard width. All these reasons should do, one is enough to get someone killed



Says the guy quoting the ROTR over and over, even though they support my point of view more than yours.



Have never said that, quote me where i did.



Yeah I admit it, i love to interfere with others peoples driving. I have no consideration for my own safety at all. I expect every driver to bow to my needs.

Can you honestly say it is safer drive a short period in the hard shoulder with its proximity to houses, field entrances, business entrances, cyclists, parked cars, people, dirt, debris or to stay in the main lane?

Your tone has become to agressive for any further consideration.
I am going around in circles here, EVERY SINGLE point you raised here have been covered at least once already.

This was, until recently, an intelligent and useful discussion.

TO Fey!

I have never said I expect anyone to move out of they way, I said I would appreciate it if they would move.
All I want to know from this thread is ONE GOOD reason why they would not move. So far, I haven't receivid one. 190 posts and no good answer, well that proves my point.

judesherry

"All I want to know from this thread is ONE GOOD reason why they would not move."


I'll give you one simple reason that has being mentioned here loads all ready. ITS TOO DANGEROUS. Why is that so hard to understand?

Vegeta

prospect wrote:

I have never said I expect anyone to move out of they way, I said I would appreciate it if they would move.
All I want to know from this thread is ONE GOOD reason why they would not move. So far, I haven't receivid one. 190 posts and no good answer, well that proves my point.

prospect I have torn you to shreds here and its plain to see, you have accused me of so many things and when i ask you to quote my posts you just don't respond, completely ignoring my questions. I have the courtesy to answer your questions why wont you answer mine

Is it safer to stay on the main lane or drive for a short period in the hard shoulder???

Fey!

prospect wrote:

TO Fey!

I have never said I expect anyone to move out of they way, I said I would appreciate it if they would move.
All I want to know from this thread is ONE GOOD reason why they would not move. So far, I haven't receivid one. 190 posts and no good answer, well that proves my point.

I didn't say that you said you expected people to move out of the way. I said that you two need to compromise; you both made some valid points, but then got so catty with each other that a lot of people are no longer interested in the points you make.

I've often sat behind a slower driver on stretches of road with no houses, entrances, roads, pedestrians or cyclists, where the surface was good and clean, and wondered why the person wouldn't move in. I also tend to pull in where I can to make it easier for people who want to pass me, but ONLY if I deem it to be safe to do so. When I do this, I also indicate both when I'm pulling in AND pulling out. If there's no space to move in, and the road is clear ahead, I'll indicate left to let the person behind me know. Likewise (and I know that several people will call me stupid for this), I will indicate right if I think that the person behind me is about to overtake when I can see a problem ahead that they may not necessarily be able to see (ie, oncoming traffic, a bad bend, traffic coming out of a side road, etc.).

Finally, if I'm sitting in a line of traffic, I'll leave a 2 second gap between me and the car in front (yes, I'm one of those sad gits who'll either count it out or use the "only a fool ignores the two second rule" line), which I'll extend to 4 seconds if the situation requires it (weather, road surface, etc). However, if I'm about to overtake, I'll close the gap, generally using it to start accelerating to overtake.

Vegeta

Fey! wrote:

I didn't say that you said you expected people to move out of the way. I said that you two need to compromise; you both made some valid points, but then got so catty with each other that a lot of people are no longer interested in the points you make.

Fey I have said several times (i'll quote my own posts if i have to) if I was truly impeeding traffic and I view it as safe i would pull in, If I am doing just below the limit (the famous 90kph) or the limit i will not pull in as i don't think its safe to drive quickly in the hard shoulder.

I don't know maybe that's being an ass hole, but i don't think so. Obviously others around here have a different view

Fey!

Vegeta wrote:

I don't know maybe that's being an ass hole, but i don't think so. Onviously others around here have a different view

If we didn't have different views, this place wouldn't exist, and life would be dull, boring and stress-free!!!!

Or would it......

Hobbes

Look everyone to the OP..

If you are driving along a road and a car is driving right behind you he is more than likely wanting to pass you so IF ITS SAFE TO DO SO just pull in slightly and let him by

The point is that the person behind you is driving in a reckless manner to get you to move over.

If the person was driving slow then you should have no problem overtaking them if its safe to do so, driving up thier ass won't help you overtake safely especially if they are already at a slow speed.

Fighting Irish

Vegeta wrote:

Pulling over will enhance the safety of the motorist doing the over taking but not yours

:rolleyes:

read the first post

i said "pull over slighty IF IT IS SAFE TO DO SO"

complicit

Here

was me thinking when someone is driving up my ass they are saying "Hi! I'm a fukin loon of a driver that wants to get myself or youself killed but I am hoping you will slow right down to safe braking distance for me so I don't accidently smash into the back of you, oh and I will probably call you a wanker when you do slow down and I over take because I expected you to drive yourself into a ditch to accomodate me.. cheers".

The hard shoulder isn't for driving in, it is for stopping in case of emergencies. If you have to pull into the hard shoulder to let someone get by odds on it wasn't safe for them to overtake in the first case.

note to tailgaters.. SLOW THE FUK DOWN.

here , here .

there is no defence for tailgating.

driving on hard shoulder is ok at low speeds ( under 50 km )

to deal w tailgaters just yo yo your speed . easy.

Vegeta

Fighting Irish wrote:

:rolleyes:

read the first post

i said "pull over slighty IF IT IS SAFE TO DO SO"

so are you talking about driving in the hard shoulder or not?

If you're not talking about the hard shoulder then brush up on your driving cos you are meant to stay as far left as possible anyway.

If you are talking about the hard shoulder please read my many posts on why I wont do this at speed.

Fey!

Vegeta wrote:

so are you talking about driving in the hard shoulder or not?

If you're not talking about the hard shoulder then brush up on your driving cos you are meant to stay as far left as possible anyway.

If you are talking about the hard shoulder please read my many posts on why I wont do this at speed.

He didn't say a word about the hard shoulder, and not all drivers stay tight to the left of their lane.

Brush up on your reading, perhaps?

vector

Fighting Irish wrote:

If you are driving along a road and a car is driving right behind you he is more than likely wanting to pass you so IF ITS SAFE TO DO SO just pull in slightly and let him by ...

That sounds logical, and it's what I thought when started driving.

However... It seems that many drivers always drive too close, regardless of wanting to pass.
It's another "boy who cried wolf" situation.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

Vegeta wrote:

If you're not talking about the hard shoulder then brush up on your driving cos you are meant to stay as far left as possible anyway.

"you are meant to stay as far left as possible anyway."

that's a new take on the "pass right keep left theory"
so if a kid runs out of a gateway from the left.... you have no chance of avoiding them.

you are not meant to stay "as far left as possible" you are expected to be central in your lane. not over to one side or the other.

prospect

judesherry wrote:

"All I want to know from this thread is ONE GOOD reason why they would not move."


I'll give you one simple reason that has being mentioned here loads all ready. ITS TOO DANGEROUS. Why is that so hard to understand?

That, my friend is horsesh1t.
Read the ROTR:
(If a driver wishes to allow a following vehicle to overtake, use can be made temporarily of the hard shoulder in order to move out of the way if there are no cyclists/pedestrians already using it).

Now if it is SOOOO dangerous, why does the rules of the road say you can use it?

prospect

For the record,

I do not Tailgate, it is dangerous and illegal

Vegeta

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

"you are meant to stay as far left as possible anyway."

that's a new take on the "pass right keep left theory"
so if a kid runs out of a gateway from the left.... you have no chance of avoiding them.

you are not meant to stay "as far left as possible" you are expected to be central in your lane. not over to one side or the other.

"A driver must generally drive as near to the left hand side of the road as is necessary to allow approaching traffic to pass and following traffic to overtake on the right (without danger or inconvenience)."


from the rules of the road \m/_(>_<)_\m/.

Vegeta

Fey! wrote:

He didn't say a word about the hard shoulder, and not all drivers stay tight to the left of their lane.

Brush up on your reading, perhaps?

Well you're right he didn't mention the hard shoulder which is why i asked him to clarify what he meant exactly by "pull in"

Pull in where, if he's talking about just keeping left of your lane well then that's just common driving practice.

Vegeta

prospect wrote:

(If a driver wishes to allow a following vehicle to overtake, use can be made temporarily of the hard shoulder in order to move out of the way if there are no cyclists/pedestrians already using it).

Now if it is SOOOO dangerous, why does the rules of the road say you can use it?

If its so safe why is it for emergency vehicles in emergencies.

If its so safe why don't they just paint all the yellow lines throughout the country white and make them slow lanes.

Again I asked you

Is it safer to drive i the hard shoulder for a short period or remain in the main lane? I just want to hear your answer

Seth Brundle

Saruman wrote:

It should be obvious.. im surprised it needs to pointed out.. If someone pulls in.. firstly you can see everything instead of having to pull out and look and then move into the other lane..
More importantly.... The unexpected!! If someone pulls out from a small laneway etc and im overtaking (safely as I had thought) then I now have an oncoming car!! If im not over all on the wrong side of the road.. the unexpected is NOT fatal nor even an issue!! Im not in his path so there is no problem.

And most importantly... If the car in front moves aside.. then its clear indication that its safe to move past.

Not quite as straightforward as this: you cannot assume that anything is safe just because the driver ahead did something. The only definite thing is that they pulled over.
Also you may not see everything - what happens if it appears that the driver is pulling over for you but actually planning on turning left? There could be cars coming out of this left junction that you can't see and they can't see you.

maidhc

Vegeta wrote:

If its so safe why don't they just paint all the yellow lines throughout the country white and make them slow lanes.

I wonder. Cork Co.Co have done it a fair bit (e.g. Mitchelstown - Fermoy), it makes a lot of sense, although some people still refuse to use them.

Vegeta wrote:

Is it safer to drive i the hard shoulder for a short period or remain in the main lane? I just want to hear your answeras noted above.

No difference IMO if the road is clear, straight and of good quality.

prospect

Vegeta wrote:

If its so safe why is it for emergency vehicles in emergencies.

? I don't understand your point.
Are you saying that it is unsafe, and that is why it is for emergency vehicles in emergencies, because that doesn't make sense to me.

Vegeta wrote:

If its so safe why don't they just paint all the yellow lines throughout the country white and make them slow lanes.

Because it is reserved for emergencys, and can be used temporarily for slower vehicles to allow faster vehicles, because long tailbacks are dangerous on national routes.

Vegeta wrote:

Again I asked you

Is it safer to drive i the hard shoulder for a short period or remain in the main lane? I just want to hear your answer

On a long straight stretch of road, with no left turns and no obstacles, i would say it is equally safe.
Now before you go off ranting about pedestrians & parked cars, from the outset of this thread, I have only been referring to long clear stretches of hard shoulder with no obstructions.

I use the hard shoulder regularly when towing a trailer, and going slow, and I have never been in an even remotely dangerous incident. I have regularly met far worse obstacles and potholes on the driving lane of single lane roads.

So with my hand on my heart, I honestly feel that the hard shoulder is perfectly safe. And, I know the ROTR back me up by clearly stating that the HS can be used by slow vehicles to allow faster ones to pass.

I am still waiting for PROOF that the hard shoulder is unsafe.

Vegeta

maidhc wrote:

I wonder. Cork Co.Co have done it a fair bit (e.g. Mitchelstown - Fermoy), it makes a lot of sense, although some people still refuse to use them.

the problem with them is lack of standardisation. How many hard shoulders have you seen and they're 4ft wide, then there are some that are just as wide as the main lane itself. Some arein excellent condition and some have this red'ish appearance to them cos they are not made with the top level of tar or something like that.

No difference IMO if the road is clear, straight and of good quality.

If the road is clear, straight and good quality then there is no need to pull in.

Accidents are exactly that accidents they are not planned, if one pulls into the hard shoulder there is definitely a greater risk of meeting an obstacle than of you if you had stayed in the main lane.