McDowell says Govt is not to blame for road deaths

kluivert

McDowell says Govt is not to blame for road deaths
11/07/2006 - 13:45:45



Minister for Justice Michael McDowell has said the Government is not to blame for the recent spate of deaths on the roads.

Twelve people have lost their lives in car crashes in the last 48 hours.

Opposition politicians say a lack of adequate resources from the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats coalition is to blame for the failure to reduce the level of deaths on the roads.

However, Mr McDowell told reporters in Dublin today that motorists themselves were responsible for their own behaviour.

"Blaming the State is not the way to get on with this," he said. "It's Irish motorists who must get the message.

"It is dangerous, speedy, drunken and careless driving that is causing deaths, not the Gardaí."

Now every driver is responsible for their actions - thats true, but well done for the government to deny everything.

What are the government responsible for then:

Road Safety
**Proper Roads**
Visible signage
Drink Driving.

Why isnt there more motorways in this country. Why??

Why do I drive to work everyday and back on one of the worst roads in the country, Twists bends, uneven road surfaces, potholes you name this road has it.

The Gardas where stopping cars for drink driving saturday night at half eleven in my local town, Half eleven you got to be taking the pis$, he took one look at me and waved me on, I was mad, who is going to be drink driving at 11.30pm, and theres not one of them out at 3am in the morning when everyone drives home drunk.

Shamables. The government have their part to play.

Who do you write to complain?

daveg

Use your vote next May to complain. I know I will. Never have I seen incompetence like our government has shown. I prefer the US government at this stage. Bunch of muppets.

Fey!

TBH, I can't remember the last time I saw a Garda checkpoint, and I'm driving in and around Galway city constantly! (Come to think of it, there was a tax and insurance one where they stopped ALL traffic coming into Moneenageisha Roundabout at 10pm one evening last summer).

Roads are a disgrace - there are parts of the city where the only time you get an even surface is when the potholes meet and you drive along the bottom of them! However, that's a corporation/county council issue, afaik.

Speeding - I've seen 2 speed traps in the last 5 years (both in the last 2 months, funnily enough!). Am I just using all the right roads?

Fey!

daveg wrote:

Use your vote next May to complain. I know I will. Never have I seen incompetence like our government has shown. I prefer the US government at this stage. Bunch of muppets.

Is voting in a different bunch of politicians honestly going to change anything? What are they going to do differently? :mad:

Vegeta

Fey! wrote:

Is voting in a different bunch of politicians honestly going to change anything? What are they going to do differently? :mad:

put more gardai on the roads to stop drink driving and speeding for a start. Maybe bring drivers ed into secondary school. A 40 point subject for the leaving cert maybe

Improve the roads, make better use of our road tax. Introduce a better license system, clear the test backlog, stop untested drivers from going on the road.

When you think about it more people obey the smoking ban than obey the rules of the road. Why is that???

kluivert

Everyone speaks about driver education in Secondary school, but no one gives a $hit, has anyone heard of www.steerclear.ie everyone should be forced to take this at school.

Driver attitudes is the reason why the smoking ban is more effective than drink driving worries.


Roads are a disgrace in this country fullstop. Simple fact is that there should be far more motorways in this country.

Donegal to Kerry. Cork to Dublin. Cork, Wexford to Galway. Galway to Dublin. Cavan to Dublin.

All roads should be upgraded to "N" class. So you have N roads and motorways, and for the country have slower roads but not ones where you drive around a bend on two wheels.

SouperComputer

Drivers are indeed responsible for their actions, but the government is to blame for a driver poor education system. Thats the primary issue.

kippy

Okay-now-this is surely going to ruffle a few feathers but I have got to agree with McDowell - partially at least.
The government can only do so much-short of turning the country into a complete nanny state. Road safety is one thing in which each and everyone of us has a responsibility to improve. Granted they could ensure certain rules are enforced more but this is neigh on impossible on all roads and full enforecent and detection rates will never be achieved.

I've voiced this before in this forum and I will keep saying it as I believe it to be true.
As long as drivers continue to have a complete disregard for the safety of other on the road, continue to drive too fast for the conditions, and indeed drive with little or no patience or respect for other road users there will alway be carnage on our roads.
Now who best that to change drivers habits than drivers them selves.
If we think that this will never happen and that the government need to spoon feed us information and training (a lot of which might I add is common sense) then we should be prepared to face absolute enforcement of all rules of the road-which of course will warrant the usual complaints of the guards being too harsh......

I posted this in a related topic.
Driver education is all well and good (and as far as I believe there is enough information out there for drivers to know how to drive safely) but if that driver does not go out and drive with some common sense and a bit of cop-on it is completly irrelevant.

Gatster

The roads, though not anywhere nearly entirely to blame for the current shambles, are atrocious. Having driven in France and the UK in the past two weeks, on Motorways, Toll Roads, minor roads and the back of beyond, it's really highlighted the conditions over here. The UK isn't as good as France (nice signs next to the road if the surface is about to become sh!t), but still shows Ireland up terribly.

The question stands, if nigh on every European country can have decent roads, why can't we?

kippy

I dont know if anyone has noticed or not but the roads are actually improving....
To be honest as far as I am concerned that is just deflecting the blame.
If the road is crap, slow down. Dont take chances. Drive to the conditions.

Seth Brundle

As I said in another thread...

kbannon wrote:

junii wrote:

It was on the news about 2 weeks ago that Cullen was down there for the opening. At the time I also think he said that government policy wasn't to blame for the high road deaths.

If you look through this governments (and presumably previous governments) term in office, you will notice that they were responsible for all the good things but the bad things were everyones fault but their own.

kippy

Thats kind of the attitude we all take to negative occurances....

kluivert

Off course ultimate responsibility for driving lies with the driver.

The point is there is certain factors that the government are in controll of that they could do to help the situation.

Like having a checkpoint at 11.30pm on a Saturday night....whats the point in that. Surely it would be more effective if it was at 2.30 - 3.30am on a sunday morning when the roll out from the pubs starts.

The amount of people I see drink driving is unreal on a saturday night sunday morning, went up and said it to the gardas on the street one night after the night club, they said they had a patrol out on the town. Bull! Drove around the town a few times no patrol in sight, no checkpoints, no nothing, just two lads standing across the road in case there was a fight coming out from the night club.

I meet a car the other evening on my side of the road heading towards me, and then he swung back onto his own side when he saw me coming around the corner??

Tailgating, especially behind lorries and buses and then try to overtake them, you when you see people behind a lorry and they creep out for a quick look behind they are five feet from the ass of the lorry, why??

Women on mobile phones, am sorry but I witness far more women on phones than men chatting away.

People dont give a damn, it'll never happen to me attitude.

Saw a old woman cut a roundabout today outside my office. Shes about late 50's just drove straght right for the third exit. I seen this happen about two months ago on the same roundabout, totally shocked to see it again. I couldnt believe it. This is a proper roundabout.

Is it safe to drive in this country? NO!!

is_that_so

Whatever else they are responsible for, they have no control when Mr Hyde sits behind the wheel.

I seem to recall that one salient and important point of our driver education, whcih I agree is bad, is observation.

You cannot blame the roads/Gardai/Government for boy racers doing 80K in a 60K zone or that no amount of checkpoints seem to encourage some people to weaqr safety belts.

IMHO an awful lot of this comes back to the Irish attitude of ignoring authority especially when we think we know better.

84%( may not have got this number right) are "good drivers" by their own admission.

I am just glad I make it home safely from every trip without doing myself or anyone else any damage.

Carb

kippy wrote:

I dont know if anyone has noticed or not but the roads are actually improving....

Which part of the country is this. Around where I am, the roads have been steadily getting worse for the past ten years. Now a large bypass is been built and what remains of the roads in the area are been ripped to shreds by construction traffic. Apart from parts of the N2 in my area, and one minor road that had become impassible in anything other than a 4x4, I haven't seen a road resurfaced in years. Occassionally, one of those lorrys that sprays the tar into a pothole comes along, and the pothole remains filled for about 2 days.

Other than that, a huge part of the problem is our culture. All the education in the world won't make people drive more safely. Take drink driving as an example, this has been educated to death, but the culture still remains, and any further education will not change the culture of people thinking they're the best drivers in the world, and everyone else is wrong. A bit more enforcement of the rules of the road, may go a long way in changing this though. Somebody mentioned the smoking ban. The smoking ban succeeded because smoking became socially unacceptable, not because of enforcement. A concerted campaign needs to see about making speeding, dangerous overtaking, tailgating etc socially unacceptable.

endplate

Fey! wrote:

Is voting in a different bunch of politicians honestly going to change anything? What are they going to do differently? :mad:

That's the attitude that keeps the same muppets in power why not try helping to vote in a different set of muppets and see if it makes any difference:)

mikedragon32

It may well be the case that Gov't or local authorities are responsible for ensuring good road surfaces etc., but it's up to each individual driver to ensure that he/she drives in a manner and at a speed that is appropriate for the road they are on, so in that respect the Gov't is NOT to blame for road deaths.

Education isn't really the answer either. Why? Because the public won't stomach it.

How many people have gained a full licence without ever having a proper driving lesson from a driving school? Quite a few I would wager. So from whom do they learn. Parents, friends, relatives. These people have no formal qualification and it is quite likely that the learner is acquiring the bad habits of their tutor.

Now, imagine all the learner drivers were told that in order to take their driving test they must have documentary evidence of having taken a specified number of lessons. Of course in the process of taking these lessons, a curriculum (for want of a better word) would have to be followed. Learners would be up in arms at the expense.

"How can I afford to run my sh1tbox Micra if I have to pay for lessons?", they would ask. Simple. No car until you've taken your lessons, Barry.

Something as radical as that is needed, but it won't happen because it would be very unpopular. Any Government attempting to bring that about would be out on its ar$e in the next election. So instead they roll out a celebrity to spearhead its road safety initiative.

Ultimately the people get the government it deserves. We have ours, same as always.

ToxicPaddy

Personally I think its combination of a number of factors.. Government, Drivers, Driver education, Gardai.. the lot really.. no one single element is responsible for the road deaths, its a combination of the lot..

How can the gardai/government be blamed for a single car collision at 3am on some country back road where the car is doing 100mph, skids and slams into a wall/tree/pole or anything really and kills themselves and those with them in the car.. thats the drivers fault imo

How can a driver be blamed for a road thats full of potholes, hairpin bends, loose gravel, lack of sign posts... thats the governments fault imo

How can a driver whos going home at night minding their own business and next thing a drunk driver slams into them killing them be blamed. Thats the drunk drivers fault for drinking in the first place, some would say the gardai's fault for not catching them and others would say its the governments for not providing enough gardai to catch them..

Each situation is different.

Yes, by all means use your vote to change things.. but also use common sense aswell.. Someone preaching about the state of our roads and the amount of road deaths who then goes off and drives home drunk or drives 100mph is a complete hypocrite and if they kill themselves in the process gets their just rewards imo.

A drunk driver should be put off the road for 5 years minimum if you ask me. Its one of the most disgusting, selfish and irresponsible things someone can do and in about 90% of the cases its the innocents that suffer.. So what if they need their licence for work or have people depending on them for their car, they should have thought of that sitting at the bar downing pints before they got into their car.

The father of an ex of mine used to drink drive constantly. It was one of the most infuriating things to see this asshole coming in at 1am p*ssed out of his tree and see him throw his car keys onto the kitchen table.. then proceed to tell us how good night he just had.. complete w*nker!!!! :mad:

Vegeta

mikedragon32 wrote:

It may well be the case that Gov't or local authorities are responsible for ensuring good road surfaces etc., but it's up to each individual driver to ensure that he/she drives in a manner and at a speed that is appropriate for the road they are on, so in that respect the Gov't is NOT to blame for road deaths.

Education isn't really the answer either. Why? Because the public won't stomach it.

How many people have gained a full licence without ever having a proper driving lesson from a driving school? Quite a few I would wager. So from whom do they learn. Parents, friends, relatives. These people have no formal qualification and it is quite likely that the learner is acquiring the bad habits of their tutor.

Now, imagine all the learner drivers were told that in order to take their driving test they must have documentary evidence of having taken a specified number of lessons. Of course in the process of taking these lessons, a curriculum (for want of a better word) would have to be followed. Learners would be up in arms at the expense.

"How can I afford to run my sh1tbox Micra if I have to pay for lessons?", they would ask. Simple. No car until you've taken your lessons, Barry.

Something as radical as that is needed, but it won't happen because it would be very unpopular. Any Government attempting to bring that about would be out on its ar$e in the next election. So instead they roll out a celebrity to spearhead its road safety initiative.

Ultimately the people get the government it deserves. We have ours, same as always.

so you don't think education works but want people to take lessons????

you confuse me.

Listen the governement are shagged at the moment cos they are shouldering the blame for the road deaths.

So they might aswell make an unpopular decision while they are unpopular they cant really fall any lower

mikedragon32

Vegeta wrote:

so you don't think education works but want people to take lessons????

you confuse me.

Listen the governement are shagged at the moment cos they are shouldering the blame for the road deaths.

So they might aswell make an unpopular decision while they are unpopular they cant really fall any lower

Where did I say education doesn't work?

If you're confused read the post again, assuming you read it the first time (doubtful).

I said education isn't the answer because the public won't stomach it, then in the next paragraphs I set out why they wouldn't want it.

Although I do agree that such an unpopular move couldn't do any more damage to their ratings, but you never know!

It's time that people realised that driving a car is a privilege and NOT a right. With privilege comes responsibility.

_Kaiser_

endplate wrote:

That's the attitude that keeps the same muppets in power why not try helping to vote in a different set of muppets and see if it makes any difference:)

The man has a point though. FG aren't any better than FF - except when they're in opposition of course which, funnily enough, is when FF shine too! :rolleyes:

Even if you vote a smaller party or an independent, the way the system works means you're gonna end up with one of the "big two" anyway (well unless/until SF become a big enough threat to them )

The biggest problem really is that the objective in government isn't to do the best job for the electorate.. it's to stay there!
Have no doubt folks that in years to come there'll be tribunals and investigations into the current lot, but even at that the only ones who'll actually pay will be the taxpaying electorate.

mike65

McDowell is right at the end of the day. Drivers have to account for thier own actions and be prepared to pay the ultimate price for bad driving, which is what is at the root of 99% of crashes. Blaming the cops, the government the couny councils the UN is deflecting from ones own failures.

Mike.

ninty9er

I don't particularly like the man, but his no nonsense approach makes sense as does his statement that our drivers are the problem. Show us one accident in recewnt years that could actualy be 100% or even 50% blamed on the roads.

I will be in contact with my local TD who is convener for the transport committee about this **** of Gardaí patrolling motorways and dual carriageways where accidents DON'T happen.

The drivers are to blame

junkyard

The fact that a seventeen year old can get a provisional license an sit behind the wheel of a car with no training whatsoever is the problem as far as I'm concerned. I've seen lunatics on the road, that frankly, shouldn't even be let loose in society. Where's all the money going thats been collected from the motorist every year? Its not being spent on road design and building, thats for sure. It would certainly be more beneficial to everyone to educate kids in schools, even if it means scrapping some subjects that more than likely will never be used anyway. Speed up the process of testing drivers in a realistic way and even include advanced driving courses. The solution is there if only our rubbish government would take the bull by the horns and fix things instead of taxing people to death with unrealistic speed limits on main roads and penalty points. The governments solution to everything here is to tax the problem and see what happens. Needless to say I won't be voting anymore either, all political parties are the same, all they want is to get into power, rule for a few years, collect their perks and pensions and leg it when the s*it hits the fan. I'm afraid things will never get any better tbh.

maidhc

ninty9er wrote:

Show us one accident in recewnt years that could actualy be 100% or even 50% blamed on the roads.

Martin Cullen admitted today on 5-7 live that the roads are a lot of the problem. If he is managing to grasp that simple concept there is hope.

mike65

Crap raods don't kill 400 people a year or even one - directly. Which is what McDowell was getting at.

Mike.

junkyard

maidhc wrote:

Martin Cullen admitted today on 5-7 live that the roads are a lot of the problem. If he is managing to grasp that simple concept there is hope.

I wouldn't be banking on Martin Cullen tbh when you see his track record, I wouldn't put him in charge of a flat screwdriver.

maidhc

mike65 wrote:

Crap raods don't kill 400 people a year or even one - directly. Which is what McDowell was getting at.

Mike.

No they don't but there will always be driver error, and it is exacerbated by bad roads where the driver must make many more decisions and judgments... On a motorway you only need to keep the car between two very straight lines, on a by-road you have everything from hairpins to cyclists.

junkyard

mike65 wrote:

Crap raods don't kill 400 people a year or even one - directly. Which is what McDowell was getting at.

Mike.

Crap cars don't kill people either but if your in them and the brakes or suspension fails your in trouble. People have to use the roads like people have to use the cars. If the roads, cars or people aren't up to scratch the end result is what we are seeing...carnage on our roads. All these factors are to blame. Its not acceptable for the government to wash their hands of the problem and blame the motorists, God knows they're quick enough to take the motorists money.

maidhc

junkyard wrote:

Its not acceptable for the government to wash their hands of the problem and blame the motorists, God knows they're quick enough to take the motorists money.

I don't particularly mind this government, and hate the way some people are always looking to blame someone else, but I'd agree it is not acceptable for the goverment to now turn around and say "its all your fault".

If nothing else they have a lot to answer for creating a completely car dependent society though bizarre planning without putting the roads in place to deal with it.

ninty9er

Our secondary education system is one of the only things in this country that isn't broken so i'd have no bother at all spending hours talking down anyone who suggests overcrowding a system that is pumping out a higher proportion of students to be world-wise stress competent adults than arguably any other country in the world. Adding a driving module would do this.

You want a licence these days; even a provisional, then you have to do a theory test which involves getting familiar with the rules of the road.

One of my favourite sayings as proven by the Germans is
"speed doesn't kill, bad driving does"

The simple fact is if kids can go out and spend 6 hours a week in their leaving cert year playing rugby or hurling, they should have the opportunity to go to a nightime training centre in their locality on a night of their own convenience. While it sounds good in theory, having done the Leaving last year it simply isn't possible to get all homework and study done if you're on a sports team, the same applies to driving.

This should be something of a summer thing maybe. taken after 5th or 6th yr depending on age and compulsory. just as there should be no drivers on our roads over 21 on provisional licences.

While i have ideas that i could put about all night, for every reason it could be done there is least one why it is UNIMPLEMENTABLE.

Drivers just have to COP the FU<K ON