McDowell says Govt is not to blame for road deaths

jimmycrackcorm

junkyard wrote:

The fact that a seventeen year old can get a provisional license an sit behind the wheel of a car with no training whatsoever is the problem as far as I'm concerned.

If they all passed their driving test in the morning the siuation wouldn't change! Inexperience is still inexperience.

As for blaming the state of the roads - well even the worst road in the country is 100% safe if everyone drove to suit the conditions. The reality of the roads is that there will never be enough money to pay to upgrade all our roads. Even if we got motorways everywhere we'd still have the same level of accidents in rural areas.

If we were serious about getting people to cop on we'd stop showing those stupid unrealistic TV adverts and show some real footage.

kluivert

There is a corner I drive everyday on my way to work and back its a 90 degree turn, there is ripples in the middle of the road where the white line should be, this is on the way home from work.

If you go over these ripples you lose traction as the car hops and you head straight for the hedge. This spot has been the sence of so many car going of the road you think that this piece of the road would be fixed but no.

So how to drive around this corner.

1. Cut the corner and pray there is no cars coming.
2. Take the outside line of the corner (staying close to the hedge/embankment), where you meet a two foot wide pothole at the exit of the corner beside the hedge.

Now locals take the outside line and try to avoid the pothole.

How is that safe?

I have seen four car crashes in the last two years at the this corner. Is that driver error or crap roads to blame.

kippy

So how to drive around this corner.

1. Cut the corner and pray there is no cars coming.
2. Take the outside line of the corner (staying close to the hedge/embankment), where you meet a two foot wide pothole at the exit of the corner beside the hedge.

How about "slow down".
Then report the area to the local authority.

Gatster

How about "slow down".

How about a non-local approaching this at the speed limit who doesn't know what will happen when he hits this bend and loses control? If this part of the road is that bad, it may be responsible for accidents. Same as if you hit the deep pot hole at the legal speed limit and lost control. If any road is so bad that it forces people travelling at a resonable (legal) speed to feel that they have to take avoiding action, where does the fault lie?

I have to agree with Mike, that most accidents are caused by driver misjudgement, but occasionally there are other factor that have to be considered.

ToxicPaddy

mike65 wrote:

Crap roads don't kill 400 people a year or even one - directly. Which is what McDowell was getting at.

Mike.

Have to agree there.. road conditions do contribute in some cases, but there have been a few accidents this year on good straight wide roads where weather conditions were good and the driver of one or both vehicles was at fault... Cant blame any external party for that..

Tox

alias no.9

McDowell is full of guff and bluster, always making great pronounciations but never following through with any actions. I agree with him in the sense that the government aren't causing any accidents. Driving appropriately for the conditions, not driving after drink, drugs (prescription, non-prescription and illicit) or when excessively tired, would result in the prevention of most road deaths. However, to get us from the current shambles, to a situation closer to the above requires government action. This is what they are responsible for. It requires a complete overhaul of traffic policing. It requires patrols out on the roads, both high visiblity units and unmarked. It requires a change in attitude on behalf of all motorists, where bad driving across the scale, from incompetancey to recklessness, is reported and these reports are acted on. It required regulation of driver training. It requires a 6 week maximum wait for a driving test with periodic resits, perhaps every 10 years before renewing your license, no more driving with a provisional unless accompanied by a registered driving instructor. It requires that all people banned from driving to resit their test before being left back on the road. It requires that all drunk drivers be banned for 5 years with a minimum of 1 month in prison for anyone twice over the limit or more. It requires more emphasis on punishing dangerous and reckless driving rather than fish in a barrell speed checks. The road safety metrics should be based on collision, injuries and deaths on the roads rahter than the number of speeding fines issued. Proper recording of collision statistics, including prevailing conditions (road, weather and traffic conditions), alcohol or drug toxicity, speed, number of vehicles, the drivers driving history, etc... and these statistics should be coallated to educate people on why people are being killed on the roads rather than the bulls4it, worn out, speeding mantra.

Vegeta

mike65 wrote:

McDowell is right at the end of the day. Drivers have to account for thier own actions and be prepared to pay the ultimate price for bad driving, which is what is at the root of 99% of crashes. Blaming the cops, the government the couny councils the UN is deflecting from ones own failures.

Mike.

you're probably right but should they do nothing or try and implement a change in driving attitude?

ShiverinEskimo

Gatster wrote:

How about a non-local approaching this at the speed limit who doesn't know what will happen when he hits this bend and loses control? If this part of the road is that bad, it may be responsible for accidents. Same as if you hit the deep pot hole at the legal speed limit and lost control. If any road is so bad that it forces people travelling at a resonable (legal) speed to feel that they have to take avoiding action, where does the fault lie?

I have to agree with Mike, that most accidents are caused by driver misjudgement, but occasionally there are other factor that have to be considered.

I totally agree - I'd imagine a large portion of road deaths occur on roads the driver is unfamiliar with. I drive from dundalk out over the mountains to my cousin quite often and I know every pothole on the way. The same mountain is a tourist attraction (ish) and you'd commonly see people in ditches etc because the road is fine, fine, fine, fine, BAM, mega pothole on a blind corner.

Saying people should drive to the conditions of the road you're on have a point. But it only takes one **** of a pothole or a bit of debris on the road to turn a good road into a gauntlet and the change can happen in a matter of meters on a corner.

ninty9er wrote:

Show us one accident in recewnt years that could actualy be 100% or even 50% blamed on the roads.

6 months ago a van travelling northbound on the M1 crossed the embankment into the southbound lane because the deflection barriers hadn't been repaired from a previous accident. Naturally it kicked up a fuss and now there's a team in place for urgent barrier repair.
Should repair and maintenance of existing safety mechanisms not have been priority from the start? So yea, sometimes the Government/Local authorities get it wrong and for them to blame it all on motorists is childish and optimisitc.
If they were more proactive and less reactive in their approach to road safety loss of life would be prevented in the first instance, not the second or third.

kluivert

kippy wrote:

How about "slow down".
Then report the area to the local authority.

We're talking serious lumps that stick up in the ground from tarmac getting soft in the summer and the weight of lorries driving around the corner pushing the tarmac out.

You have to slow down for the corner anyway, as you do.

I take the corner at the slow pace anyway and I have already reported in the council in Monaghan and Louth and because its right on the border neither Co. will do anything.

kippy

I take the corner at the slow pace anyway and I have already reported in the council in Monaghan and Louth and because its right on the border neither Co. will do anything.

Yep, agree a lot with what has been said about non-local drivers not being aware of these parts in roads.
The fact that the councils dont do anything about this spot is a disgrace. They should sortout any such bad parts of roads which are highlighted in this instance and this is something the government are responsible for.

zilog_jones

Here's all the crashes I remember seeing in the past few years:

- Guy in a Starlet driving normally down the straightest part of the Ennis Road (by the tennis club; recently resurfaced) on a quiet afternoon, then suddenly goes up onto the kerb and into a lampost. God knows what he was up to - possibly completely langballed, but it was the middle of the day O_o.
- Two cars crash on a T junction further down the Ennis Road (by Centra), again on a straight part of the road and in the middle of the day. There's no lights there but the road going onto the Ennis Road is pretty small, low traffic and the junction is perfectly visible. Obviously driver error somewhere.
- Earlier this year: Man driving up my street manages to crash into a parked car ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ROAD (and it's a wide-enough road). About midnight. Straight road again. But I heard the man talking to the guards and he was completely jiggered out of it. Knowing our luck he's back on the road already, or was never off the road.
- Bit of a pile-up on the ring road (going up to Moylish roundabout) - about 5 cars crashed into each other before the pedestrian crossing - I didn't even see anyone crossing the road. The road is perfectly sound. Obviously someone was either (i) tailgaiting, (ii) coming too fast out the junction before it, (iii) had a shít car/brakes, or (iv) was langers (this was 8 am, but I would not be surprised).

All of these were obviously the fault of drivers, either being irresponsible or drunk... unless there was a some malfunction of one of the cars, but that's a lot less likely.

mike65

kippy wrote:

The fact that the councils dont do anything about this spot is a disgrace. They should sortout any such bad parts of roads which are highlighted in this instance and this is something the government are responsible for.

Rather then having a rant against central government may I suggest you pick up the phone to your local authority and ask for the roads dept and tell them of the hazzard in question? Or is that too much trouble when you can type out your annoyance here?

Mike.

peasant

mike65 wrote:

Rather then having a rant against central government may I suggest you pick up the phone to your local authority and ask for the roads dept and tell them of the hazzard in question? Or is that too much trouble when you can type out your annoyance here?

Mike.

There are a multitude of known accident blackspots all over the country that are due to bad road design or bad road condition.
Leaving this to the Co Co's to sort out is the wrong approach IMO.

The road saftey authority should be involved in this. Collect data on why these stretches are so dangerous, learn from it and have a nationwide strategy on how to make similar stretches safer all over the country.

As it is there are no or just minimal standards on what a safe road should look like. It would be asking to much of Co Co's to come up with that standard. All they can do is get somebody out to patch the potholes ...which clearly is not enough.

Feargal

Id say overall the government has to take its fair share of the blame!
Bad Roads do Kill people and even though our roads are slowly getting better they are still Terrible! Most are very badly signposted, and have poor surface conditions! There seems to be no standard traffic light layout! (just stick them anywhere lads, it`ll be fine!) The worse thing is we have paid twice over for roads the government never built!

One Possible answer to reduce roads deaths is to look at what the uk and Norway and just copy what they are doing, Its seems to be working there!

I think its fair to say that there are a lot of bad drivers and its not just the roads, but then Better training and exams need to be introduced.

I heard gerry ryan saying they should increase insurance cost!!! What a load of *&&&
They should reduce insurance and vrt so people in general can spend there money on better safer cars instead of trying to scrape together money for insurance and then they have feck all for the car and servicing.

Also unmarked Garda cars might catch people, but nothing makes you keep an eye on your speed and driving than the normal Garda Car.

ShiverinEskimo

Feargal wrote:

They should reduce insurance and vrt so people in general can spend there money on better safer cars instead of trying to scrape together money for insurance and then they have feck all for the car and servicing.

The trouble is people will spend the extra cash on bigger faster cars. The NCT was designed to up the safety standard before it became misguided and turned into a racket. I reckon eventually all cars will be limited to 120kmph and that'll be that. Or in the far future RFID could be used to only allow an engine to accelerate to the speed limit of their location.

Feargal

ShiverinEskimo wrote:

The trouble is people will spend the extra cash on bigger faster cars. The NCT was designed to up the safety standard before it became misguided and turned into a racket. I reckon eventually all cars will be limited to 120kmph and that'll be that. Or in the far future RFID could be used to only allow an engine to accelerate to the speed limit of their location.

Might happen, but im sure like everything else, a lot of people would get it hacked..
and speed is only part of the problem.

maidhc

ShiverinEskimo wrote:

I reckon eventually all cars will be limited to 120kmph and that'll be that.

What would that achieve? It would cut people exceeding the speed on motorways, but that isn't actually the problem.

ShiverinEskimo wrote:

Or in the far future RFID could be used to only allow an engine to accelerate to the speed limit of their location.

RFID is probably not the technology for this. GPS could do it now, but to be honest I don't think it would achieve much either. It may be useful to control traffic in a 30mph zone.

ninty9er

zilog_jones wrote:

Here's all the crashes I remember seeing in the past few years:

Guy in a Starlet driving normally down the straightest part of the Ennis Road (by the tennis club; recently resurfaced) on a quiet afternoon, then suddenly goes up onto the kerb and into a lampost. God knows what he was up to - possibly completely langballed, but it was the middle of the day O_o.

there was also one at the union cross where some eejit obviously broke the lights and drove a car going the other way against a wall resulting in 2 ambulances who might have been needed for real emergencies being called out

- Earlier this year: Man driving up my street manages to crash into a parked car ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ROAD (and it's a wide-enough road). About midnight. Straight road again. But I heard the man talking to the guards and he was completely jiggered out of it. Knowing our luck he's back on the road already, or was never off the road.

saw something similar about 14 months ago walkin home from the Davin. Outside the woodfield about 1am, taxi crossed the road hit an electricity pole - lucky there was nothing coming the other way or anyone on the footpath

- Bit of a pile-up on the ring road (going up to Moylish roundabout) - about 5 cars crashed into each other before the pedestrian crossing - I didn't even see anyone crossing the road. The road is perfectly sound. Obviously someone was either (i) tailgaiting, (ii) coming too fast out the junction before it, (iii) had a shít car/brakes, or (iv) was langers (this was 8 am, but I would not be surprised).

Problem there is the 50kph speed limit should be 60kph, good wide road with margins shielding the rouds in the estate


can't say i blame the roads in any of those in the same relative areas

ShiverinEskimo

maidhc wrote:

What would that achieve? It would cut people exceeding the speed on motorways, but that isn't actually the problem.

It would also cut people doing over 120 in 100km zones, 80km zones and so forth.

Plenty of people go in excess of motorway speeds on National roads and sometimes even regional roads. Obviously you couldn't set it to less than 120 because a car needs to be able to do that speed on the motorway but it would rule out extreme speeding on other roads too. I've seen people going 80/90/100 Miles per hour on single carraigeway roads plenty. a 76mph/120kmph limit would prevent this.

Gatster

Don't know if this is off topic, but where is the mighty Gaybo in all this? He hasn't been mentioned since he was appointed Lord High Executioner of Traffic Safety, or whatever the f@ck his nonsensical title is. He needs ringing to verify his view and plan of action...

gyppo

Mr McDowell is to be commended for his boorish high-handed insensitive comments, especially on a day when people were burying their loved ones. His timing was impeccable, and his arrogance breathtaking. This country is blessed to have him.

The government must share some portion of blame for the increasing carnage on our so-called road network. Granted, we have a third world transport infrastructure, where a tractor at 20mph can cause a tailback on some portions of our primary routes; we have a learner driver system which allowed people that failed their test to resume driving; – this is not the main problem though.


The main problem is lack of Garda resources, and enforcement.

There must be more guards recruited, and a very visible Garda presence felt on our roads. The present Garda force simply do not have the resources available. The government can change this. There is a projected surplus of €1 billion in the exchequer this year – use it.


There must be more serious penalties issued. Afaik, there is new legislation pending when the dail resumes from its summer holidays. (Sometime in sept/oct.) We have all seen how quickly new bills can be passed, if they are deemed urgent enough – you only have to look back a few weeks. Obviously human life wrt. car accidents doesn’t fall into the same category of urgency.

Penalties should be on the spot, and severe. A couple of examples:
1 Can you prove without doubt to a garda at a checkpoint that you are fully insured to drive the car you are stopped in? No? Then, it should be a case of the garda taking the keys of your car on the spot, and you getting out and walking. Forget about the 10 day rule rubbish – if a guard can do this to you, are you not going to ensure you have all documents in order.
2 Are you driving unaccompanied on a provisional licence? Yes? Same penalty applies as in 1.
3 Have you been drinking sir? Yes? Again, see 1.

A huge fine should also apply in the above scenarios.

The above might appear simplistic and draconian, but its something like this we need. The Guards need to be given the powers to carry out such penalties, which should be immediate, and hard-hitting. We need to fear the consequences of our bad driving behaviour; otherwise what incentive is there to change?

Enforcement is the key to changing driver attitudes. If there is a good chance of being caught and penalised, people may think twice about breaking the law. If it is probable that you will see a tangible police presence on our roads, then you might be more inclined to remain within the limits of road law.

Cast your mind back a few years ago, when the penalty points system was introduced. The change in driving behaviour wrt speed was immediate, as everyone had this dread of getting points on their licence. Sadly, once people cottoned on that the guards were’nt there in sufficient numbers to make enough difference, things returned to a normal level of hooliganism.

I’m sure many reading this will disagree on some aspects of my rant ; however, I’m fairly confident I would have the backing of families of road accident victims, who have lost loved ones before their time.

maidhc

gyppo wrote:

1 Can you prove without doubt to a garda at a checkpoint that you are fully insured to drive the car you are stopped in? No? Then, it should be a case of the garda taking the keys of your car on the spot, and you getting out and walking. Forget about the 10 day rule rubbish – if a guard can do this to you, are you not going to ensure you have all documents in order.

That is virtually impossible to do. I can prove my car is insured, and can even provide a certificate, but that does not prove anything beyond doubt since it can easily be faked. Also, when, lets say, I am driving another persons car on my policy, I am still insured, but this is only apparent from the terms and conditions of my policy, the ownership of the car, and whether or not the owner has given me permission to drive.

If you are caught drinking you are arrested.

Feargal

"The main problem is lack of Garda resources, and enforcement."

For me if people were better educated at driving and the rules of the road, then that would have a bigger improvement than fines, taxs, extra Garda. Id rather see extra Garda fight crime! (i also think fines and taxs don`t work, but it makes the government money)

Also for motorbikes, i cant believe there isn`t a CBT (Compulsory basic training) yet, I done it in England and it helped me so much.

gyppo

Hi Maidhc,

You are right, it is virtually impossible. Maybe I was too strong with this point, and should have said that the garda should be able to confiscate the car if he had good reason to suspect an uninsured driver.

On the drink driving point, I meant a zero - tolerance approach (where did we hear that before!). ie. if you have had half a glass of wine, why are you driving. I had automatically meant arrest as part of the penalty on my first post.

I realise my points were of a simplistic nature, what I was trying to get across was the need for severe and instant penalties for road offences.

gyppo

Hi Feargal,

I agree with your point about driver education.
I also agree about the need for more guards to fight crime - In fact, more guards are needed everywhere.
But, given the choice between the life of a family member, or a crime against material things, then put them on the road every time.

twenty8

I think that to blame the government is a cop out. Fine - perhaps they could do some more. But regardless of what the death toll on the roads is - the governement could do more.

Drivers need to take responsibility - and not just for themselves. How many times have you seen people have 1 or 2 pints in the pub and then drive home??? Did you say anything to them or stop them? Highly unlikely.

Did you know that back in 1974 the average number of deaths per month was around 55? Today is down to around 33. Last year it was at the lowest for nearly 25 years. We are not as bad as we think we are - but always room for improvement.

We all need to stop blaming someone else and take responsibility.

Feargal

gyppo wrote:

Hi Feargal,

I agree with your point about driver education.
I also agree about the need for more guards to fight crime - In fact, more guards are needed everywhere.
But, given the choice between the life of a family member, or a crime against material things, then put them on the road every time.

Hi i agree more Garda would Help, By more Garda for crime, i also mean Murder, Sexual Abuse, drugs etc.

On the insurance part, i was pulled over because i didnt have a cover letter or insurance disc, it had gotten lost in the post but i eventually got it. If they had taken my car i would have been in a mess for work. Maybe a computer database that insurance companies updated would be better. (mind you they prob would have forgotten to update it)

Silvera

The government has a lot to answer for re Road safety in Ireland! (....as have all past govts!)

What we need is to follow the 3 x E's (as in Sweden)

- Education (educate about road safety from primary school onwards)
- Engineering (fix the roads! and look at removing/reducing hazards e.g. removing hedges in some 'blackspots', more 'right turning' lanes, more 2+1 roads, etc etc etc
- Enforcement (prosecute offenders)

.....and in that order!

I drove over 5000kms in New Zealand in 2004 and only came across 3 potholes! ....and they had been painted with white paint to highlight them !!

How is it that NZ can have proper roads (incl no chippings on the roads!) and yet they have a far large landmass than us and we are now one of the richest countries inthe world?

Govt not to blame - yeah right!


It's issues like this that we need a drivers association to highlight and campaign on, on our behalf.

ninty9er

putting more gardai on road patrol is pointless.
How many times have you seen gardai blatently ignore people who have broken road traffic laws

ShiverinEskimo

ok so the solution is to put more GOOD Gardaí on the road.