So, should gaybo go?

Sparks

Possible ways to tackle the problem:

• Enforce existing laws
• Give the Gardai Traffic Corps all the resources they need
• Require any car on Irish roads to be fitted with a speed regulator which cannot be deactivated by the driver and which prevents a car exceeding 120kph at any time, or 80kph for a HGV
• Activate all the GATSO speed cameras
• Review existing speed limits and amend those that are clearly daft, whether it be to go up or down
• Forego the practise of posting black spot signs at bad stretches of road in favour of actually fixing the layout of the road to prevent future crashes
• Ban SUVs from urban roads
• Ban all private vehicles from the city centre and buy in a million or so bicycles to be left in public park-n-ride spots all over the city, ala Helsinki, Copenhagen, the Netherlands, Portland, etc
• Stage the licencing procedure so that for a period of time after being licenced, speed limits apply and the driver has to display an R plate, as in Northern Ireland
• Force people to retest every time they renew their licence

Possible ways to duck responsibility for the problem:

• Split responsibility between at least two Ministers
• Appoint a well-recognised public figure for everyone to yell at but who has no real authority or resources
• Blame the drivers for the problem
• Save money for use in reelection campaigns that say the Opposition have no plans to tackle the problem

I think that that rather answers the question of whether or not we're serious about tackling the problem...

is_that_so

On top of that I would also make the penalty points/offense conditional on the speed

Reduce drinking limit to zero so that there is no temptation
Drink Driving - automatic loss of licence , prison sentence of up to 2 years

Driving at Speed limit + 50% + 10kph - Court 5 points
Driving at twice speed limit + 10 kph - Court, dangerous driving , automatic loss of licence for 12 months.

Anything over this - lifetime licence loss and prison sentence of up to 2 years ( as should have happened with that chap on the Derry road).

Sparks

And there's the swiss method of driving fines. First offence is a set fine, same as here. Subsequent offences are a percentage of your gross annual salary, starting with 1%, then 2% on the next and so on.

bonkey

Sparks wrote:

And there's the swiss method of driving fines. First offence is a set fine, same as here. Subsequent offences are a percentage of your gross annual salary, starting with 1%, then 2% on the next and so on.

So thats how it works here! I've always wondered

I've been slow about startng driving, so as a result, I'm only now going through the Swiss sytem. While I'm out of touch with the Irish system, I must say that how its structured over here just to get your license strikes me as far more sensible.

For a start, the first thing I have to do is a First Aid course. Once thats done and I have the certification for it, I can book my Road Theory exam. Once that is passed, I get my learner's license and can start learning how to actually drive.

While learning, I cannot be alone. I must be accompanied by someone over 23, who's held a clean license for at least 3 years. By my understanding, they must also be in a fit state to drive (i.e. I can't practice by being the designated driver on a night out).

Before I can sit my driving exam, I need to take some additional course to do with road safety, and I believe there is an addition 1 or 2 courses which I also have to take within 1-2 years of getting my license.

Once I have my license, for the first 3 years it is considered privisional. What this means is that if I am caught speeding (any excess, I believe) or with any alcohol in my system (it might be a tiny non-0 allowance, but forget it), I lose all accreditation and have to start over.

Even then, the Swiss are constantly looking at ways to curb problems. Speeding is a big one to tackle, and I know a year or two ago they were talking about lifetime bans for anyone caught a certain amount over the limit. I can't remember the specifics, but from memory the proposal was about "posted limit + 40%" and you were never driving again.

The biggest problem I see in Ireland is the inadequacy of enforcement. Its impossible to know whether or not the current system can work because its not being given a chance.

Someone mentioned earlier that the unlicensed-driver law is alleged to be "unenforceable". Effectively, it is, because there are so many unlicensed drivers, waiting lists for tests, and poor alternatives in public transport. The correct way to tackle this is to get rid of the waiting lists, improve the alternatives...not to say "oh fukkit, we can't enforce that so lets just ignore it".

I also remember that when I left (5-ish years ago), most people treated speeding tickets as something you put up with if you didn't know someone who knew someone. Even with the points, this still seems to be the case from what I've anecdotally heard. How does one tackle this problem? One tackles it where the problem is. The system is not handing out the fines it should, so deal with those people. Make it harder for them to not fine people. Make it an offence to try getting off a fine anywhere other than in front of a judge. No leniency from the guy who pulls you over.

I recall last summer, we were heading to the hills. Round a corner on the m'way and there in front of us was literally 40 or 50 police, arrayed for about a half a klick along the road. Camera had been set up in a field back the road and every single car that sped was pulled. We must have passed a queue of about 100 cars all of whom had drivers awaiting a spanking. I believe the approach is a 5km leeway at that speed, so anyone caught at 125.1 km/h or faster was pulled and fined.

I know people who've been hit for being 2km over the posted limit (30, 40, 05 50) in towns and cities over here. 2km!

If you think its draconian, its ultimately because you think you should be allowed to speed "just a little", and that posted limits aren't limits but "sort of limits".

Ask yourself this...if 50 means 55, why not post 55 and mean it? The Swiss post what they mean, and enforce what is posted. Its not perfect, but what I see in Ireland is still far too many people complaining that others aren't kept in check, whilst insisting that the laws to keep people in check shouldn't really be so rightly enforced when it comes to them.

And thats what it boils down to. If you think the "real" speeders need to be dealt with, while those doing 130 instead of 120 are fine if its a quiet road on a good day with light traffic....you're part of the problem.

<edit>
One last point

When driving (well, travelling as a passenger thus far) through the Alps, and one sees a sign suddenly marking the speed as 20 kph, one can take it for granted that anything faster than this is putting you at serious risk of going over a cliff, into a river, or into a rock-face. 20 doesn't mean "brake soon", nor "about 35-ish", nor oftentimes even "25-ish". I know a certain bridge that gets taken out literall once a year or more from people unable to understand this.

</edit>

bonkers

listen

gay byrne has given his services for little or nothing to one of the greatest problems in this country at the moment...

the hypocrisy of the vast majority of irish society is alarming..

"oh the government should be doing more to stop teh road deaths.. oh whos gay byrne to fix the problem.. oh the government should be voted out on this"

im not and never have been a supporter of the govt parties but.. they cannot fix this problem.. they cannot implement change in the hears and minds of irish people regarding their driving habits... penalty points should be seen as a huge embarrassment.. they should be seen as link to the latest road death... speeding, seat belts, driving when tired, driving when drunk, being in the car when someone is doing any of the same, accepting that a friend of relative has done wrong and not abhorring them about it.. should all become socially unacceptable..

this needs to happen.. cos the government wont bring in extreme laws along the lines of 6 penalty points and your banned... then maybe people will take notice... but people wathcing and reading about the road deaths and speeding once more make me sick..

Sparks

bonkey wrote:

So thats how it works here! I've always wondered

That's how it works according to my father, who's taken to spending long phone calls telling me all about how Geneva's an awful place to work in because those stupid swiss not only insist on following rules, but they take serious umbrage at those who don't follow them. You'd think he'd be used to it after two years...

If you think its draconian, its ultimately because you think you should be allowed to speed "just a little", and that posted limits aren't limits but "sort of limits".

I thought the "get caught with ice on your windshield and lose your licence for life" rule was a tad draconian myself. Being tagged for being 2kph over the limit... well, I'd want to be sure of two things - that the legal limit on the speedometer's accuracy for the manufacturer was good enough that I could know I was over the limit; and that the speedgun was in calibration - but those aside, it's not draconian.

Sparks

bonkers wrote:

gay byrne has given his services for little or nothing to one of the greatest problems in this country at the moment...

Actually, he's given his services as a lightning rod for public criticism to the government. Actual authority to fix the problem, on the other hand, is seperated between the DoT and DoJ, so they can play pass-the-parcel with the buck (to mix a metaphor).

im not and never have been a supporter of the govt parties but.. they cannot fix this problem.. they cannot implement change in the hears and minds of irish people regarding their driving habits.

Except that they can. The statistics clearly showed a drop in accident rates when penalty points were introduced, because people were afraid of being caught. When it came out that they weren't really being enforced, rates went back up. There's a solution right there.

Also, everyone's saying speeding is the cause of most accidents. Who's calling for mandatory speed limiters that the drivers can't turn off, set to 120kph for cars and 80kph for HGVs?

The problem's solvable, or at least it's improvable. But doing so would ensure you wouldn't be reelected. So there's no interest in solving it.

bonkers

over 60% of the accidents on our roads - fatal and non fatal occur on 8% of our road network... so the gardai have to dedicate a vast majority of its patrols to this small section of road... they have to base their policies on facts..

people need to start taking responsibility.. we cannot look to government all the time..

Sparks

bonkers wrote:

over 60% of the accidents on our roads - fatal and non fatal occur on 8% of our road network... so the gardai have to dedicate a vast majority of its patrols to this small section of road... they have to base their policies on facts..

You're kidding, right? 60% might happen on 8% of the roads, but that doesn't mean that those 60% could have been prevented by patrolling that 8% - it means that if you patrol that 8% you'll have a better chance of seeing the accident as it occours. It's the miles before that 8% that need to be patrolled!

people need to start taking responsibility.. we cannot look to government all the time..

Seriously, you're kidding, right?
Or are you just ignoring what government could be, but aren't doing?

Villain

bonkers wrote:

im not and never have been a supporter of the govt parties but.. they cannot fix this problem.

Sorry but I have to disagree 100% with that, this Government has held back on random breath testing for years because of vested interested (i.e. the publicans and there pals in the backenchs).

The computer system for penalty points only came into operation in the last month, before that 1 in 7 people who were caught speeding and didn't pay the fine immediately never had any action taken against them, never mind the fact that a vast number of photos taken with speed cameras weren't usable.

The government has had 8 years to make changes but they have failed terribly.

Heinrich

Sparks wrote:

That's how it works according to my father, who's taken to spending long phone calls telling me all about how Geneva's an awful place to work in because those stupid swiss not only insist on following rules, but they take serious umbrage at those who don't follow them. You'd think he'd be used to it after two years...


I thought the "get caught with ice on your windshield and lose your licence for life" rule was a tad draconian myself. Being tagged for being 2kph over the limit... well, I'd want to be sure of two things - that the legal limit on the speedometer's accuracy for the manufacturer was good enough that I could know I was over the limit; and that the speedgun was in calibration - but those aside, it's not draconian.

The Swiss are very serious about their laws! The first thing they do is to enforce them. That seems to work.;)

Then, there are serious rules about learner drivers as stated by the man from Biel/Bienne. You do the test in three stages; First Aid, theory and Practical. You must be accomp[anied by a driver with a minimum of three years driving experience. You may not hire a motor vehicle within a minimum of two years from passing the test.

You will be locked up for drink driving and excessive speeding! Fines are to be paid and failure to do so will result in the sums due eventually being deducted from your salary. You don't mess with the flics.

Speed/crashing red light cameras work and do provide beautiful photos. Road checks are pretty frequent.

The advantages of living in a semi police state.

bonkers

we are getting into bull**** territory here..

right.. i do believe that the government have a huge role to play..
they have failed us on a number of road safety issues... the random breath testing issue has been delayed because it has massive knock on effects for personal privacy and the gardai's right to stop and search anyoen for anything.. without any prior belief that something is up... and with the gardai corrpution and constant allegations being thrown about.. we dont need a bad law... it should be in by now but there are reasons for the delays..

at the nub of this is personal responsibility... people can say oh the only place i ever see the gardai speed checks is on the dual carriageway... if you break teh speed limit you should get done.. wherever you are.. no matter how little over you are.. theres an opinion out there... that sees the fact that the gardai in the wrong place as the only reason for speeding and fatal accidents... not the fact that they break the speed limits often (because im never going to get caught and i know this because the gardai arent enforcing teh laws) this is bull****.. and the main problem

the government should shoulder a huge amount of the blame but society needs to change its views

Villain

bonkers wrote:

the government should shoulder a huge amount of the blame but society needs to change its views

Do you still believe

im not and never have been a supporter of the govt parties but.. they cannot fix this problem

And I strongly believe the reason for the random breath testing delay has more to do with lobbying by publicans than anything else, as for the delay in the computer system, I don't know what the reason for that was other than it being a public project.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Sparks

ziggy67 wrote:

I would ask: What would be the point in employing a guy who can have about as much impact on the problem as the price of bread in outer mongolia?

Actually, that makes a lot of sense, if you have the right personal agenda. He's a very well-known celebrity, so every tabloid and joe-duffy radio show out there knows who to blame. Guy's the perfect lightning rod so Cullen and McDowell get a bit of heat taken off them.

bonkey

Sparks wrote:

I thought the "get caught with ice on your windshield and lose your licence for life" rule was a tad draconian myself.

I'd agree, but I don't think any such law exists.

The maximum penalty might be that severe, but thats not quite the same thing.

Being tagged for being 2kph over the limit... well, I'd want to be sure of two things - that the legal limit on the speedometer's accuracy for the manufacturer was good enough that I could know I was over the limit; and that the speedgun was in calibration

The speedgun calibration you can have tested and verified, I believe....but you pay for it if its accurate.

The speedo on your car is, quite frankly, your problem. If its only accurate to +-5 kmph, then you should allow that into your driving speed and keep yourself 5kph below or above any posted max or min respectively.

-bonkers wrote:

the government should shoulder a huge amount of the blame but society needs to change its views

Who, if not the government, are responsible for making society change these views?

As for gaybo....to get back in the direction of the topic....that was one attempt at finding an avenue to make society change their views. Education and awareness should almost always be the first stop, and his job was/is to raise awareness. He's tried that, and it hasn't done much. Now, arguably, this means his job is pointless and he should be fired. On the other hand, maybe he has promoted increased awareness and had some negative effect on the numbers. Maybe they've risen more slowly than they otherwise would. (I refer the reader at this point to my current sig).

Awareness isn't enough. Education is lacking - the learning system needs reform. Enforcement is lacking - this needs reform. Punishment - possibly needs reform, but to be honest, I'd rather see education and enforcement dealt with, awareness maintained, and then see whether or not more serious deterrants are needed.

Fire Gay? No. But I'm glad someone suggested it because it serves to highlight the all-too-common approach of people dealing with symptoms instead of problems and maybe if some debate gets started on it, someone will point out that this is again what is happening.

Irish people are well aware that there is carnage on Irish roads. They're well aware that speed kills and all the rest of it. Mr. Byrne's job was to increase awareness and he has succeeded. It just hasn't solved the underlying problem.

Victor

bonkers wrote:

gay byrne has given his services for little or nothing

Except his salary.

DublinWriter

Let's 'park' the whole Gaybo issue for a second (no pun etc).

I've thought long and hard about this. The problems regarding road deaths in this country are down to three basic issues:

1) Most N-roads are two lane bohreens.
2) Drink driving on the above at weekend
3) Irish drivers, especially young Irish drivers, are very poor drivers

The guards can't effectively patrol the N and R roads as there's usually no hard-shoulder and it's very very very dangerous to stop anyone on any N or R road late at night.

But what they can do is park their arses randomly outside the carparks of pubs at the weekend and breathalise all who drive out (as they do in Australia) around closing time instead of hiding behind bushes on the Lucan and Naas roads.

Why don't they do this? Because we don't have a culture of random breath testing in this country and any half-decent SC can drive a coach and horses through any Drink Driving case that makes it to court.

jbkenn

ziggy67 wrote:

I would ask: What would be the point in employing a guy who can have about as much impact on the problem as the price of bread in outer mongolia?

Who would you employ?, the problem with the whole road safety issue is, how do you "ungob****e" a gob****e, on my travels today I observed the following
Gob****e A, a motorcyclist who overtook a line of traffic in a suburban area, well in excess of the speedlimit.
Gob****e B an SUV driver who parked on the footpath and double yellow line outside a shop, purpose of this necessary illegal parking, to purchase the Sunday papers
Gob****e C, parked his SUV behind Gob****e B presumably because "the other fella did it, so I'll do it too"
Gob****e D, drove across a double white line to park outside shop at a busy junction,
Gob****e E an "apprentice hearse driver" driving on a busy secondary road at a constant 55Kmph, despite it being a 100Kmph speedlimit, totally oblivious to the long tailback he had created

This is just an example of what I observe on an average day, I don't envy Gay Byrne his task, for truly it is an impossible one

jbkenn

bonkey

DublinWriter wrote:

The problems regarding road deaths in this country are down to three basic issues:

1) Most N-roads are two lane bohreens.
2) Drink driving on the above at weekend
3) Irish drivers, especially young Irish drivers, are very poor drivers

The first of those isn't an issue, or shouldn't be.

Accidents are not caused by roads.

They're caused by drivers who don't respect the roads and road-conditions.