Only in the North.........

darkman2

Hi, I noticed with great interest the burning of tricolours on bonfires across the north last night. TBH I hadnt really noticed this before but its just brought home to me what a pathetic society that is up there. On TV Unionist concillors praising the loyalists constructing these bonfires which are incitement not just to hatred but I believe to kill. Some idiot up there even took it upon himself to put Micheal Mc Ilveen's name on one of the tricolours at a particular fire. What hard men. I think the British should take firm action against this sort of thing and I wish they would wake up to whats going on on their own patch, as it were. Hatred on a par with Islamic fanatics burning flags in the middle east, thats what this is. What a bloody curse that place up there is. The whole lot of them, Republicans and Loyalists - if they want to behave like animals - then treat them like animals. Impose strict laws on the place because im sure im not the only one thats fed up with the Racism on display day in, day out up there. Absolutely disgusting society that id nuke if I had the opportunity at this stage:mad: :mad:

mike65

I heard that on Tom McGurks prog this morning, I shrugged and went to wash and shave. I really could'nt give a tinkers cuss about the tribal stupidity up there anymore.

Mike.

my_house

ah sure they're getting grants for that now ...

darkman2

my_house wrote:

ah sure they're getting grants for that now ...

What supprised me more tbh was that their own media actually supports this sort of thing. I am referring to 'BBC Newsline' which I actually took time out to watch (which I usually never do because you know whats going to be in the news up there everyday anyway) and they were going on about 'having a great night'. In despotic states I believe this sort of thing is frowned upon and yet these morons think its alright and even their elected representatives (ive yet to see one that isnt a bigot on both sides).

banaman

mike65 wrote:

I heard that on Tom McGurks prog this morning, I shrugged and went to wash and shave. I really could'nt give a tinkers cuss about the tribal stupidity up there anymore.

Mike.

I agree although the riot in Dublin at the OO parade shows that the North doesnt have the only racist bigots on the island of Ireland.
At the end ofthe day its us taxpayers here and in the UK that end up subsidising the arseholes.

flogen

darkman2 wrote:

Hi, I noticed with great interest the burning of tricolours on bonfires across the north last night. TBH I hadnt really noticed this before but its just brought home to me what a pathetic society that is up there. On TV Unionist concillors praising the loyalists constructing these bonfires which are incitement not just to hatred but I believe to kill. Some idiot up there even took it upon himself to put Micheal Mc Ilveen's name on one of the tricolours at a particular fire. What hard men. I think the British should take firm action against this sort of thing and I wish they would wake up to whats going on on their own patch, as it were. Hatred on a par with Islamic fanatics burning flags in the middle east, thats what this is. What a bloody curse that place up there is. The whole lot of them, Republicans and Loyalists - if they want to behave like animals - then treat them like animals. Impose strict laws on the place because im sure im not the only one thats fed up with the Racism on display day in, day out up there. Absolutely disgusting society that id nuke if I had the opportunity at this stage:mad: :mad:

Imposing draconian laws only helps sectarianism, it doesn't end it.

Let them tire themselves out with their displays and actions, they'll get tired quick enough.
Fact is that this kind of action isn't fitting in a modernising Northern Ireland that is drawing its lines from sectarian beliefs less and less every month, over time these muppets, and the Republican muppets will be forced to either grow up or get relegated to history for good.

my_house

mike65 wrote:

I heard that on Tom McGurks prog this morning, I shrugged and went to wash and shave. I really could'nt give a tinkers cuss about the tribal stupidity up there anymore.

Mike.

i applaud your deep understanding of irish politics.

darkman2

flogen wrote:

Imposing draconian laws only helps sectarianism, it doesn't end it.

Let them tire themselves out with their displays and actions, they'll get tired quick enough.
Fact is that this kind of action isn't fitting in a modernising Northern Ireland that is drawing its lines from sectarian beliefs less and less every month, over time these muppets, and the Republican muppets will be forced to either grow up or get relegated to history for good.

I thought it was getting better - until the DUP got elected along with Sinn Fein in such numbers at the last election. Those two parties are filled with bigots and if they represent the majority in Northern Ireland then we are actually in a worse way then in 1998. The political vacuum is fueling the sectarianism and its clear to me that its raising its ugly head again gradually and that instead of going forward, were going backwards. What will happen on Nov 24th when unionists lose alot of their power to Southern institutions?. This is it, its end game now. Even Tony Blair is practically begging us for a helping hand up their because the British would love to offload this mess on us. Ulster says 'NEVER'?! It may well be us that say 'NEVER'!.

Diogenes

my_house wrote:

i applaud your deep understanding of irish politics.

Tribal stupidity would be a fair and accurate description of much of what goes on up there.

flogen

darkman2 wrote:

I thought it was getting better - until the DUP got elected along with Sinn Fein in such numbers at the last election. Those two parties are filled with bigots and if they represent the majority in Northern Ireland then we are actually in a worse way then in 1998. The political vacuum is fueling the sectarianism and its clear to me that its raising its ugly head again gradually and that instead of going forward, were going backwards.

Don't you think that the success of these two parties is a good thing? Far from allowing them to remain on the outside of the system they are now close to an agreement (how close depends on who you speak to and who needs to move is another matter); if the DUP and SF do make a deal then it would be impossible for a more extreme party to out-do them, because none exist... if the UUP and SDLP did a deal it would be compromised by the extremes on either side.

What will happen on Nov 24th when unionists lose alot of their power to Southern institutions?.

The unionists, like the nationalists don't have power anyway, they're under direct rule and have been for many years, bar a short break a few years ago... and no one knows what the make-up of joint-stewartship is likely to be, it could just be Ireland helping the UK to make sure cross-border initiatives are met or it could be an actual split of control, but I find that very, very unlikely.

This is it, its end game now. Even Tony Blair is practically begging us for a helping hand up their because the British would love to offload this mess on us. Ulster says 'NEVER'?! It may well be us that say 'NEVER'!.

Yes, I caught that speech where he begged Ireland to help him deal with the North because he wanted to offload it... :rolleyes:
It's been end game again and again for many years; I hope that Nov 24th will actually be a deadline, but that's an issue for another topic.

darkman2

flogen wrote:

Don't you think that the success of these two parties is a good thing? Far from allowing them to remain on the outside of the system they are now close to an agreement (how close depends on who you speak to and who needs to move is another matter); if the DUP and SF do make a deal then it would be impossible for a more extreme party to out-do them, because none exist... if the UUP and SDLP did a deal it would be compromised by the extremes on either side.



The unionists, like the nationalists don't have power anyway, they're under direct rule and have been for many years, bar a short break a few years ago... and no one knows what the make-up of joint-stewartship is likely to be, it could just be Ireland helping the UK to make sure cross-border initiatives are met or it could be an actual split of control, but I find that very, very unlikely.



Yes, I caught that speech where he begged Ireland to help him deal with the North because he wanted to offload it... :rolleyes:
It's been end game again and again for many years; I hope that Nov 24th will actually be a deadline, but that's an issue for another topic.

Of course he didnt say it but its a bit obvious. No British government has ever given this lee way to the South to get involved. They are obviously strained and the massive subsidy their paying for the privilage of running the place has them angry and you can tell in some of the language....i.e Peter Hain talking about an 'All Ireland' economy. This is new territory. Theyve never spoken like that before.

I dont think its a good thing that the DUP and SF are the main parties simply because they are and always will be associated with fanaticism for their own side. They represent the worst of both communities. The result is polarisation. Think about it, a party involved in criminality on a scale we really dont know about and another party full of religious nut jobs at the helm being put in charge........that says alot about the thinking up there tbh.

The Unionists will take 'joint stewardship' VERY differently to nationalists, I think that goes without saying.

my_house

Diogenes wrote:

Tribal stupidity would be a fair and accurate description of much of what goes on up there.

no that would not be accurate at all. nor a fair one.

my_house

flogen wrote:

Yes, I caught that speech where he begged Ireland to help him deal with the North because he wanted to offload it... :rolleyes:

thats an unbelievable attitude. how will you feel when war breaks out there again and this opportunity doesnt reappear for decades? all because of southern irelands high moral attitude to a problem Ireland itsef helped cause. talk about hand washing ....

my_house

darkman2 wrote:

I dont think its a good thing that the DUP and SF are the main parties simply because they are and always will be associated with fanaticism for their own side.

those fanatics on both sides voted then in, and therefore there must be many fanatics. if thats the case you have to ask why. are they all stupid and tribal? i think not. there are deeper problems that arent being tackled.

darkman2

my_house wrote:

thats an unbelievable attitude. how will you feel when war breaks out there again and this opportunity doesnt reappear for decades? all because of southern irelands high moral attitude to a problem Ireland itsef helped cause. talk about hand washing ....

What opportunity are you talking about. Its a religious freak show up there atm. We have made alot of progess, hav'nt we?:rolleyes:

darkman2

my_house wrote:

those fanatics on both sides voted then in, and therefore there must be many fanatics. if thats the case you have to ask why. are they all stupid and tribal? i think not. there are deeper problems that arent being tackled.

Like what.....they've had so much good will up there. All wasted......

Diogenes

my_house wrote:

no that would not be accurate at all. nor a fair one.

http://tinyurl.com/oueyk

http://tinyurl.com/s6xmy

http://static.flickr.com/3/3233565_cceaa2b764_m.jpg

Oh yeah those are all the products of "untribal" "intelligence"


*Yes I'm aware of that untribal isn't a word, I just cannot think of the word "tribal" antonym.

my_house

those links wasted my time. You may as well state all of ireland is comprised of child abusing priests. your post told me nothing there whatsoever except that some people are republican. that doesnt back up what you said.

darkman2

my_house wrote:

those links wasted my time. You may as well state all of ireland is comprised of child abusing priests. your post told me nothing there whatsoever except that some people are republican. that doesnt back up what you said.

What about this: http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/

Diogenes

my_house wrote:

those links wasted my time. You may as well state all of ireland is comprised of child abusing priests.

Whut? Seriously Whut? I gave examples of the petty stupid tribalism on display in northern ireland.

your post told me nothing there whatsoever except that some people are republican. that doesnt back up what you said.

How doesn't it? What would you define as painting your colours or murals as big as possible in as prominent place as possible? Tribalism is the act of setting your social group as apart as possible from other members of society. Thats clearly what these murals do, so much of the petty squabbling and viciousness be it the attacks on the girls and boys in Holy Cross, defacement of gravestones, giant murals, fighting around the "glorious 12th" cannot be justified as anything more than stupid tribalism.

might I also ask

there are deeper problems that arent being tackled.

What specifically are these deeper troubles?

flogen

darkman2 wrote:

Of course he didnt say it but its a bit obvious. No British government has ever given this lee way to the South to get involved. They are obviously strained and the massive subsidy their paying for the privilage of running the place has them angry and you can tell in some of the language....i.e Peter Hain talking about an 'All Ireland' economy. This is new territory. Theyve never spoken like that before.

Talk of an All-Ireland economy quickly dried up, however when it was clear that more than half of the population of NI would be against it not to mention the fact that an All-Ireland economy is basically reunification in disguise. Of course the UK wish NI wasn't as expensive as it is, it doesn't mean they want rid of it

I dont think its a good thing that the DUP and SF are the main parties simply because they are and always will be associated with fanaticism for their own side. They represent the worst of both communities. The result is polarisation. Think about it, a party involved in criminality on a scale we really dont know about and another party full of religious nut jobs at the helm being put in charge........that says alot about the thinking up there tbh.

If I were a citizen of NI I can assure you that I would vote neither DUP or SF however my point is that if these two extremes can find a common ground then there's hope for the North yet. There's no denying that both parties have softened unbelievably since they were voted in and while there's still a lot to go it's quite an achievement to only have a handful of issues left for resolution before they are able to work together.

The Unionists will take 'joint stewardship' VERY differently to nationalists, I think that goes without saying.

Probably, but that's not what you said; you asked what they would do when their power was taken away from them, I pointed out that they have no power at present.
The fact is that we cannot speculate on what joint stewardship means until the Nov 24th deadline is upheld and the two premiers make their statement later in December.

my_house wrote:

thats an unbelievable attitude. how will you feel when war breaks out there again and this opportunity doesnt reappear for decades? all because of southern irelands high moral attitude to a problem Ireland itsef helped cause. talk about hand washing ....

What war? Do you know something the rest of us don't?
You obviously missed my sarcasm when you assume that I have a moral attitude problem; I was pointing out that Blair has never begged Ireland to help him, he's simply been one of many successive prime ministers in the UK (going back to the height of the troubles) that realises that the NI situation cannot be normalised without the co-operation of the Republic; frankly I'd wager that both Blair and Bertie would be happy to leave the 6 counties as they are once it was in a peaceful state.

Sleepy

*yawn*

Can't we just close the border and let them kill each other in peace?

my_house

why are you people on a politics forum when you dont seem to have a grasp of your own countries politics. links of the sf webstore proves everyone in the north is tribal? some of you dont even understand the shakey foundations of the peace process by the looks of it. Maybe I shouldnt bother having any debates on this forum until a lot of people on here wise up a bit and cop on.

oscarBravo

my_house wrote:

Maybe I shouldnt bother having any debates on this forum until a lot of people on here wise up a bit and cop on.

More to the point, maybe you should put a bit more work into your debating technique. You don't offer arguments or back up your positions. In fact, you've explicitly avoided explaining your positions on the grounds that to do so might breach the forum's rules.

It doesn't matter what your opinion is. What matters is that you can explain it, and back it up with facts - supported by outside references, where necessary.

my_house

Im sorry, but if you expect me to put up irrelevant links and say its proof like others do, then that wont happen. the point is that the north isnt tribalist and stupid as people in this thread are saying. I dont have to prove that. the onus is on others to prove it is. showing me pictures of republicans or the sf store jsut doesnt cut it.

the level of debate on this forum is laughable, and to be honest more of a waste of my time than its worth.

Ohyeah

There is a pic on the front page of Daily Ireland today (Wednesday 12th) of the bonfire with the tri-colour with M McIlveen name on it. Very sick indeed:mad:

only good thing is that the DI report alo has quotes from a local DUP councillor saying that he was disgusted with the flag which is at least a little positive.

Frelance

Nothings going to change until the schools are sorted out. Students are still attending either mainly catholic or protestant schools or underfunded integrated college's.
I attended a pre-dominantly catholic college and feel that there always was a sense of anti- protestant feeling in the place.

oscarBravo

my_house wrote:

Im sorry, but if you expect me to put up irrelevant links and say its proof like others do, then that wont happen.

If you're going to continue to post here, all I expect is that you engage in rational debate. That means that you counter points you disagree with in a measured, rational way. To date, all I've seen from you is disagreement, and assertion that somehow anyone who disagrees with you doesn't understand the situation.

If you believe that to be true, then help people to understand your point of view.

my_house wrote:

the point is that the north isnt tribalist and stupid as people in this thread are saying. I dont have to prove that. the onus is on others to prove it is. showing me pictures of republicans or the sf store jsut doesnt cut it.

Others have argued that aspects of Northern society are tribalist and stupid. They've pointed out examples of such tribal stupidity. I don't recall anyone saying that the entire North is tribal and stupid.

If your position is that there is no tribalism and no stupidity in the North, then you'll have to back that position up with facts, or at the very least intelligently refute those who have claimed that tribalism and stupidity exist there.

my_house wrote:

the level of debate on this forum is laughable, and to be honest more of a waste of my time than its worth.

You've contributed nothing to the level of debate on this forum to date. Feel free to start contributing. Alternatively, you have my full permission to stop posting here.

Diogenes

my_house wrote:

Im sorry, but if you expect me to put up irrelevant links and say its proof like others do, then that wont happen. the point is that the north isnt tribalist and stupid as people in this thread are saying. I dont have to prove that. the onus is on others to prove it is. showing me pictures of republicans or the sf store jsut doesnt cut it.

the level of debate on this forum is laughable, and to be honest more of a waste of my time than its worth.

I've listed several examples of mindless tribalism and you've been shown some examples, your response "Nu huh". You cannot rebut someone else's argument with just "No" and then complain about the level of debate here. If the level of debate is so low (and as a newcomer to this forum, I strongly disagree) you're hardly doing anything to raise it.

my_house

Diogenes wrote:

I've listed several examples of mindless tribalism and you've been shown some examples, your response "Nu huh". You cannot rebut someone else's argument with just "No" and then complain about the level of debate here. If the level of debate is so low (and as a newcomer to this forum, I strongly disagree) you're hardly doing anything to raise it.

youve shown me elements of tribalism, which obivoulsy exist (as it does in sport and many other aspects of life) but you havent backed up your orignal claim int his thread. Oscar Bravo did try to twist this aspect around, but you did state "Tribal stupidity would be a fair and accurate description of much of what goes on up there." which is incorrect. "Tribal stupidity happens on occasion up there." would have been more accurate.

darkman2

my_house wrote:

youve shown me elements of tribalism, which obivoulsy exist (as it does in sport and many other aspects of life) but you havent backed up your orignal claim int his thread. Oscar Bravo did try to twist this aspect around, but you did state "Tribal stupidity would be a fair and accurate description of much of what goes on up there." which is incorrect. "Tribal stupidity happens on occasion up there." would have been more accurate.

I think the North is very tribalist. Go under the thin respecting surface and its boiling. Its split along sectarian lines. Its politics are split along sectarian lines. Its about Religion, being British or Irish.

What about the OO drums with 'KIA' on them?? I heard that, that meant 'kill all Irish'. Now I dont know whether thats true but thats an example of what Im talking about.

I understand where your coming form. You probrably feel were too pessimistic about the North. Honestly though, its hard not to be.