Irish Agrement Board Cert. How important is it?

sas

Several of the alternative build methods starting to emerge in this country do not have an IAB cert.

An architect I spoke to reckoned building with a system without the cert could cause issues getting house insurance for example.

Also, on reselling the surveying engineer for a purchaser might also take a cautious stance and advise against buying a house built using one of these systems.

The systems I'm particularly interested in are external insulation and insulated concrete formwork.

So, for those of you in the know, are these concerns justified?

muffler

Be concerned, be very concerned. To make it simple, system/products in the construction sector must be tried and tested and given the nod so to speak. in this instance the nod is an Agrement Cert. If you are using untested (or even failed) systems or products you are inviting trouble

Johnniep

As Muffler said above, an Agrement cert, Irish/British should be available for all building components from steel mreinforcement to lintels to door sets. If you use system/products you are leaving yourself very open to having a building you may find difficult/impossible to sell in a few years time. Also remember, there is a reason why a product does not have an Agrement sert. It may be a great product that simply hasn't been tested yet.......or it may not comply with building regs etc this will more than likely lead to problems in the future.

I think you shopuld as the system provider what certification can they provide for the system with respect to compliance with building regs, are they in the proces of gaining agrement approval etc......

Regards,

John

sas

I can add a little to this now based on some of the feedback.

I'm interested in the Dryvit external insulation system as supplied in this country by www.Greenspan.ie. I've been considering taking a conservative slant on sustainable building which is basically build a standard 2 leaf block house and leave the cavity empty. Then insulate on the outside.

The Dryvit system has british BBA certification.

Greenspan are currently putting the system through the IAB process but said it realistically would be at least another 12 months before they would have a result. He was up front with me which I appreciated. The product featured in a passive house build in wicklow which I read an article on in "Build your own house and home" magazine. He even suggested I contact the guy who built that passive house to discuss the system.

On another note, I don't see an IAB cert for 2 leaf concrete block building. For that matter, I only see 1 reference to timber frame construction which is for century homes. By that can I then say that all other timber frame companies in the country ( they do all vary based on stud sizes etc.) would have no IAB cert.

Viking House

There is no facility in Ireland to test products and according to European law CE certification superceeds IAB.
Homebond recommends partial fill cavity walling and the 9 inch cavity block with a cement plaster on the outside and drylined with plasterboard backed Polyeurethene insulation.
Both of these are terrible systems and aren't recommended in any other European countries except England and here.
Why are you building a 4 inch cavity wall and not something like a 9 inch block or a Poroton block with the external insulation?
If a fraction of moisture got into a drywit wall in Germany you would get a lot of fungus growth due to condensation because of the huge temperature fluctuations.
We have a much more forgiving envoirnment here because of our mild climate which rarely dips below freezing.
We stopped using Polysterene outside about 2 years ago and moved on to Granite wool which is much better.

sas

Viking House wrote:

Why are you building a 4 inch cavity wall and not something like a 9 inch block or a Poroton block with the external insulation?
.

I haven't made any decision yet on what I'm doing. I spoke to a civil engineering friend of mine and he wasn't at all keen on the idea of single leaf construction using poroton blocks. One of his main concerns is what happens if you get a settlement crack in the wall. I don't know whether this concern is well founded or not. He did say that if it is a lightweight system that its probably not that much of an issue. Is it a light weight system?

Viking House wrote:

We stopped using Polysterene outside about 2 years ago and moved on to Granite wool which is much better.

Thats all well and good but I've come across 3 companies in ireland doing external insulation so far, 2 do the polystyrene type and the other company is you I hardly have a vast base of unbiased knowledge to call on.

Viking House

sas wrote:

Thats all well and good but I've come across 3 companies in ireland doing external insulation so far, 2 do the polystyrene type and the other company is you I hardly have a vast base of unbiased knowledge to call on.

Hi Sas

Point taken! I probably am biased, but I am not selling any products and I don't have a stock of materials in my shed that I am trying to sell. I could very easily send a few guys down to you and put on the polysterene and plaster and make as much as I would from the Granitewool system.
The houses we built before using 150mm Polysterene externally are performing very well with low heating costs.
Instead I put myself to a lot of trouble importing Granitewool and organising transport because I belive the product is better and I like to push out the boat when it comes to building heat loss.

I am just a builder trying to find the best solutions for my clients!
If I find a better product to use I will drop this one like a shot.

There are a lot of foreign builders now working in Ireland who know these standard European systems and there are a lot of Polish architects working here also, why not ask one of them?

90% of the weight load of a concrete wall is from the weight of the wall itself.
A Poroton block wall is about half the weight of partial fill cavity block wall.

Good look on your build, if you need some help just ask.
Why are you down on Timber Frame?

sas

Viking House wrote:

Why are you down on Timber Frame?

Strictly speaking I'm not in the slightest. I just happen to think that the solidity of block houses is a nice feature. I'm Irish I can't help it.

I realise that I could slab a timber frame home with fermacell and screed the upper floors to greatly increase the solidity.

The thermal mass benefit of concrete is a nice feature too. I realise again that there are some insulation materials that can add thermal mass to timber frame homes too. However, they are hard to come by.

Basically I intend building only once and I want to get it as right as possible. For me that means structurally sound and easy\cheap to heat.

I'd be interested in a chat, whens a good time to get you at the numbers on your web site?

Mellor

sas wrote:

On another note, I don't see an IAB cert for 2 leaf concrete block building. For that matter, I only see 1 reference to timber frame construction which is for century homes. By that can I then say that all other timber frame companies in the country ( they do all vary based on stud sizes etc.) would have no IAB cert.

Not every single technique/product used in the industry has an AC. Only new products/techniques that are not covered by a IS or BS, or where the NSAI don't have/can't find an equivalent standard. That is why there isn't one for traditional construction methods because they are already covered. The Technical guidance document on materials and workmanship (part D) covers it in detail.
If it can be shown that the product has been used successfully and meets requirements, it may also satisfy.

sas wrote:

The thermal mass benefit of concrete is a nice feature too. I realise again that there are some insulation materials that can add thermal mass to timber frame homes too. However, they are hard to come by.

I'm stil not sure which i prefere timber for speed, or solidity of concrete. Think I am leaning to concrete with tradition though. But one thing that gets me is the complete crap (also know as avertising) that concrete and timber companys spin out. Their advantages they list are nearly always a very liberal stretching of the truth. both timber and concrete companys do it, and i wont list loads of example here, just one in relation top your comment.
Concrete does have a thermal mass element to it. BUT this is only a real benefit when its used in certain ways (placement, exposure). In a tradional house its not used like that. Doesn't matter what the ads say.

Its takes longer to heat a cold concrete house. Fact
A warm concrete house stays warm longer. Fact

They practically cancel each other out.

Viking House

sas wrote:

I'd be interested in a chat, whens a good time to get you at the numbers on your web site?

Hi Sas

I work from home and there is a little boy here who goes to playschool at nine and bed around 7-8, so any time between.

Call in the next time you are in Dublin.

Maud

My German colleague is building a house in Germany at the moment using those Red Poroton type blocks with a rockwool type insulation on the outside, he says it is quite common around Hamburg.

muffler

Maud wrote:

My German colleague is building a house in Germany at the moment using those Red Poroton type blocks with a rockwool type insulation on the outside, he says it is quite common around Hamburg.

Thatched roofs and whitewashed walls are common around parts of this country

sas

muffler wrote:

Thatched roofs and whitewashed walls are common around parts of this country

If you believe that the IAB cert is a very good guide as to the proven quality of a building system, why would you appear to have a negative opinion of building with poroton blocks (which have an IAB cert)? Or is it the external insulation that you take issue with?

Or am I misreading you? I don't think I have though because you've previously stated your opinion that blocks and mortar were the only way to go in a "timber frame vs block build" thread.

Not aimed at you directly Muffler but I can't help but feel that the majority of Irish people think building technology peaked with the partial fill cavity block build. Any other system is simply dismissed as either unproven (regardless fo how long its been used abroad) or not suitable for our climate.
The general opinion I meet with when I try to raise this issue is that improvements will come in the form of better insulating materials for the cavity.

I'm trying to research a house build and the majority of people tell me that building any way other than block is mad but few of them can offer anything in anyway constructive when asked to justify that. "Tried and tested"in this country seems to mean it didn't fall down. It doesn't take any account of how easy the house is to heat for example. Big houses are hard to heat is what you get told, not that maybe the build method is flawed.

Researching a house build is driving me nuts basically:)

Johnniep

sas wrote:

......the majority of Irish people think building technology peaked with the partial fill cavity block build. Any other system is simply dismissed as either unproven (regardless fo how long its been used abroad) or not suitable for our climate.

Hey sas,

I can completly understand the "tried and tested" attitude. In the building industry, you have to be 100% certain that what we recommend works and works well. As you know, the largest capital purchase that most people will make is their house.

I can only speak for myself, but if I am asked to recommend a building system, the first thing I would mention is the typical blockwork system. There are a number of reasons for this:

1. We know it works.
2. The builder will be familiar with this system. (Ever tried to introduce a new system to a contractor and they will almost always try and revert to block) If you use a new system, the builder may still consider it to be a blockwork build and use standard details which may or may not be approporiate.
3. Specifying a particular system will limit the number of contactors who will tender for the job.....more expensive.
4. We know it works :rolleyes:

As the move goes more in the direction of higher quality insulation, air tightness etc (which I am all in favour of), we will certainly see new building techniques appear and it is vital we review each on their merits, and a BBA/IAB cert is always a good start.

All the best.

John

Viking House

Johnniep wrote:

4. We know it works :rolleyes:

John

Hi John

This report done for the BRE in England shows that it doesn't work.
http://projects.bre.co.uk/uvalues/U-values.pdf

It also mentions the problem of degredation and offgasing of the U-value of Polystyrene and Polyeurethene (Kingspan) in the short term and long term.

A study in a Helsinki University found that Polyeurethene had a negative impact on the structural strength of wood when the two were used together in timber frame construction.
Finnish building regulations do not allow Polyeurethene to be used near timber which asks the question, have Kingspan researched its TEK house properly? I will post a copy of this study when I find an English version.

muffler

sas wrote:

Or am I misreading you?

In this instance yes. You said you have a friend who is building in Germany and a lot of houses there are using the poroton block etc. I was being a bit sarcastic as I didnt see the relevance between building in Germany and building here.

Viking House

muffler wrote:

Thatched roofs and whitewashed walls are common around parts of this country

The symptoms of asthma have risen in Europe by 400% in the last 50 years.
One of the main culprits is fungus and mould which doesn't grow on a whitewashed wall because of its Ph and its hydroscopic properties.
An inch of thatch has the same insulation properties as an inch of Fiberglass so a 400mm thatched roof had a U-value of less than 0.20, nothing wrong with that!

A lot of the old building techniques still work well as do a lot of the modern building techniques.
Its the concrete/plastic revolution of the last 50 years that is doing all the damage to our planet and our health.

sas

Viking House wrote:

Hi John
Finnish building regulations do not allow Polyeurethene to be used near timber which asks the question, have Kingspan researched its TEK house properly? I will post a copy of this study when I find an English version.

I won't dispute this but Kingspan aren't the only ones with a SIP system. www.sips.org for example covers there use in the states which seems to be pretty wide spread. They may actually fall under the "tried and tested" category because I've read they have been used for 40 years.

Viking House

Thanks for the info Sas

Mellor

Viking House wrote:

The symptoms of asthma have risen in Europe by 400% in the last 50 years.
One of the main culprits is fungus and mould which doesn't grow on a whitewashed wall because of its Ph and its hydroscopic properties.
An inch of thatch has the same insulation properties as an inch of Fiberglass so a 400mm thatched roof had a U-value of less than 0.20, nothing wrong with that!

A lot of the old building techniques still work well as do a lot of the modern building techniques.
Its the concrete/plastic revolution of the last 50 years that is doing all the damage to our planet and our health.

On paper tatch is a good insulator. But in reality, when it is exposed to elements, mainly moisture, it's proformance suffers alot. Water reduces the U-Value of most pourous insulators.
But I do understand your point, its the pre-fab mass produced fad of the last number of years.

Viking House

sas wrote:

Big houses are hard to heat is what you get told, not that maybe the build method is flawed.
Researching a house build is driving me nuts basically:)

If I was building a big house I would build the walls/floors/roof to passive levels.
I would then pick out a living area say 35% of your house and overinsulate that area all around like a cocoon. I would zone heat that area for 90% of the time in the winter controlled by a thermostat set at say 20 degrees.
I would not heat the rest of the hose.
You may need a seperate area used occasionally that you can heat on demand.
The correct temperature for bedrooms is 17 degrees, this can be easily achieved even in a big house built to these standards.
Don't forget the heat generated by Solar gain and from the Occupants.
Fit thick curtains or insulated blinds to keep the heat in at night.

Johnniep

Viking House wrote:

Hi John

This report done for the BRE in England shows that it doesn't work.
http://projects.bre.co.uk/uvalues/U-values.pdf

It also mentions the problem of degredation and offgasing of the U-value of Polystyrene and Polyeurethene (Kingspan) in the short term and long term.

A study in a Helsinki University found that Polyeurethene had a negative impact on the structural strength of wood when the two were used together in timber frame construction.
Finnish building regulations do not allow Polyeurethene to be used near timber which asks the question, have Kingspan researched its TEK house properly? I will post a copy of this study when I find an English version.

Just had a quick scan of the report. Some interesting info there, thanks. I wouldn't go away from cavity construction as a result though! The calculated/actual U-Value of a cavity wall with polyurethane insulation seems to compare quiet well (Ratio of 0.8 to 1.0). The results are a little worse for expanded polystyrene. However, in the summary, they note the following:

It cannot at this stage be established whether this difference arises from workmanship, ageing processes10, weathering or defective insulation materials but the level of difference appears to depend upon the type of construction used.

While the form of construction does appear to be a factor, the quality of workmanship (which can be pretty poor on some builds!!!!) is not looked at and would have a huge influence on the overall U-Value obtained.

Just my 2 cents

Viking House

On page 22 the report states in conclusion;

Partial fill cavity construction showed significant differences between measured and calculated U-values with measured U-values being up to twice as large as calculated U-values. Large variations between one section and another on the same wall were observed in a number of cases, suggesting that the way in which each individual section of insulation is fixed may be a factor.

The system is seriously flawed! plus the added problem of degredation of the U-value of polyeurethene over time.
And we are building over 50,000 of these every year.

Johnniep

Viking House wrote:

Partial fill cavity construction showed significant differences between measured and calculated U-values with measured U-values being up to twice as large as calculated U-values.

The high values (up to 2.2) are for partial fill cavity using EPS which with the part L requirements is difficult to achieve the U-Values. The use of PI is pretty much dominant in the partial fill cavity situation and these achieve much better results (the highest being 1.2)

Maud

Partial fill cavity construction showed the biggest difference between measured and calculated U-values

Mellor

Maud wrote:

Partial fill cavity construction showed the biggest difference between measured and calculated U-values

That is due to poor instalation, mortar blobs on the wall, which cause thermal looping.