Bertie opens mouth and places foot

tba

Im less worried about the creation of these laws and systems and the mentality of certain people, who believe laws are meant to be worked around.

No matter how many laws exist people will ignore them or find a way to avoid them, as it stands for certain elements dropping the laws would have no effect as they already ignore them.

अधिनायक

tba wrote:

Im less worried about the creation of these laws and systems and the mentality of certain people, who believe laws are meant to be worked around.

When laws are unenforced, people get in the habit of ignoring them. Following enforcement, they can get in the habit of obeying them just as easily.

No matter how many laws exist people will ignore them or find a way to avoid them, as it stands for certain elements dropping the laws would have no effect as they already ignore them.

It's not the quantity of laws that matter or the scale of the punishment, its the chance of being caught. In the case of laws like speeding, these are best enforced by automated systems rather than by hiring half the country to sit behind every road corner and then let their friends off.

Liber8or

There is a strong mentality by drivers where they believe that if they see a roadsign indicating an area/road has a 100Kph that they should go 100Kph.

Im not messing, many, many people use the excuse if someone pulls them up on their speeding, "Im not breaking the limit, its a 100Kph area". Even though the road maybe in tatters and unable to support vehicles driving at 50Kph!

Newsflash : Just because the sign says you CAN drive at 100Kph doesnt mean you HAVE to!

oscarBravo

Can we stick to a discussion of the politics of the problem, please? Otherwise it's going to turn into a thread better suited to either Motors or Commuting/Transport.

leeroybrown

A few quick points I note from reading the above:

Someone mentioned the quality of the roads. I agree that some of our roads make it easier to have an accident but I think that the majority of the problem is caused by drivers who do not adequately identiy and react to potential hazards. It's quite safe for a driver do 100KPH on most of our national routes so long as they adjust their speed for hazards, bends, etc. A properly trained driver should be able to do this - you learn it for yourself if at all here in Ireland. You can learn a lot of bad habits driving but you shouldn't forget basic training and competences if they are taught properly. I would like to see a concerted governmental effort to improve the level of mandatory driver tuition received by someone before they can go on a public road, before they can sit a test and before they can gain a full license.

I also thing that it would be beneficial to place a probation period on the full drivers license. This would not be to limit it's use - if you've passed a proper test you should be able to drive a car - but to force drivers to be more careful. This could take the form of lower point thresholds, higher point deductions or a secondary point threshold resulting in having to resit the driving test after a minimum period on learners probation.

Someone else mentioned speeding fine sizes. Finland have a very interesting model where the fines are pro-rated against your annual earnings. If my memory serves me correctly they have given out 100,000 Euro plus fines for speeding to huge earners and a 35,000 Euro fine to someone who ran a red light. I don't ever see it being politically prudent or socially conscious to levy large fines on students, low income parents, etc but increased fines for those in a position to pay might be a strong deterrant.

sovtek

अधिनाय&#2325 wrote:

It's not the quantity of laws that matter or the scale of the punishment, its the chance of being caught. In the case of laws like speeding, these are best enforced by automated systems rather than by hiring half the country to sit behind every road corner and then let their friends off.

You also get the situation like my hometown in Texas where there are way too many cops with nothing to do...guess who they harass then?

अधिनायक

beats me.

Mexicans? Gay cowboys? People with broken tail-lights? You?

sovtek

अधिनाय&#2325 wrote:

beats me.

Mexicans? Gay cowboys? People with broken tail-lights? You?

...African Americans, guys with long hair or people that wear a lot of black, people with peace signs, marijuana leave stickers, anti-bush/war/ stickers, anyone driving a Chevrolet Camero's, blonde girls...etc etc etc

Raiser

Our politicians are, for the most part arseholes.

Don't see how they can be blamed for any incident where driver error kills people.

Standards of driving in this country are crap - there are so many drivers out there who shouldn't even be allowed to drive in the bumper cars at the fu*kin' seaside.

I reserve a red-misted rage for tail-gaters, inbred cretins all of them :mad:

अधिनायक

oscarBravo wrote:

Can we stick to a discussion of the politics of the problem, please? Otherwise it's going to turn into a thread better suited to either Motors or Commuting/Transport.

There is not much disagreement between the main three parties over road safety policy.
Here's fine gael's response to the Road Traffic Act and here's Labour.

Both are broadly supportive of the legislation and point out the poor enforcement of existing laws. Neither oppsition party has any thought-out proposals to lower the death and accident rate.

It will never be a big issue for the electorate. people like reading about road accidents for the same reason they like to rubberneck. But they wouldn't see it as affecting them - unlike say health or crime. This is despite the fact that you are more than twice as likely to be killed by a car than be murdered and more than twice as likely to be injured in a road accident than be assaulted.

Perception matters more than reality and the cynical politician will play to the imagined fears of the public rather than see to their actual needs.

constitutionus

thought you guys could do with a laugh. there was a crash on the north circular road today circe 5pm involving a female driver and guess who? BERTIE AHERN, yes the taoiseachs car was involved in a crash. no ones hurt thank god but i have to ask, was it speeding, drink driving or mobile phone use that caused our counties leader to be involved in a smash up? ya gotta admit sometimes god's got a great sense of humour

Hotblack Desiato

Raiser wrote:

Don't see how they (politicians) can be blamed for any incident where driver error kills people.
Standards of driving in this country are crap - there are so many drivers out there who shouldn't even be allowed to drive in the bumper cars at the fu*kin' seaside.

Don't you see the contradiction there?

Driving is a privilege not a right.

The government in 1979 gave the privilege of a full driving licence to thousands of people without making them pass a test.

Since then we have had huge growth in the numbers of vehicles on the road, entirely predictable due to economic growth and catching up with European averages. But the government totally failed to put a testing system in place to deal with this.

The government extended the provisional licence from 6 months to 1 year to 2 years, rather than deal with the testing backlog.

The government allowed some provisional licence holders to drive unaccompanied, and refuses to meaningfully enforce the law on the rest.

The government has failed to provide adequate road safety education (Rules of the Road not revised for 15 years), or to provide sufficient resources and legal powers to the Gardai.

So... is it any wonder that Irish drivers in general don't give a damn about road safety or the law? The government has taught them, right from the start of their driving careers, that road safety is not to be taken seriously.


Oh and can we stop all the Gay Byrne bashing FFS. He's the figurehead - NOT the decision maker - of a proposed agency which does not legally exist yet, has no powers and no budget as of yet. His job will be PR and in this field he is undoubtedly an expert. Yet certain people insist on slating him personally because he hasn't managed to bring about a total change in Irish driving culture overnight? Get a grip on reality. Things were left drift for so long in this country it constituted gross negligence on the part of sucessive governments. It will take years (provided sustained government commitment and funding exists) to turn this around and this will include making hard and politically unpopular decisions. We'll see then just how firm government commitment actually is.

sovtek

अधिनाय&#2325 wrote:

Perception matters more than reality and the cynical politician will play to the imagined fears of the public rather than see to their actual needs.

...enter Gay Byrne

sovtek

ninja900 wrote:

Oh and can we stop all the Gay Byrne bashing FFS. He's the figurehead - NOT the decision maker - of a proposed agency which does not legally exist yet, has no powers and no budget as of yet. His job will be PR and in this field he is undoubtedly an expert.

And how is a PR stunt going to make things better?

Diaspora

sovtek wrote:

And how is a PR stunt going to make things better?

I agree Gay Byrne is no doubt a PR expert and an engaging individual but I strongly believe that most individuals that hold him in high regard are unlikely to be engaging in the type of behaviour that costs lives.

Lower Mount Street gets it very wrong sometimes

Hotblack Desiato

sovtek wrote:

And how is a PR stunt going to make things better?

Why do you say establishing the Road Safety Authority is a PR stunt?
Did you actually read the part of my post that you quoted?
Gay Byrne isn't the chief executive of the RSA, won't set policy, he's just the public face. If he gets people talking about road safety issues he's done his job.