Heroin addict released from prison

ExoduS 18.11

JC 2K3 wrote:

Heroin needs to be regulated rather than prohibited.

In the words of the virgin mary... come again?

Chucky the tree

JC 2K3 wrote:

Emm.. It does give you a high.... It's a longer lasting high, but heroin addicts claim it lacks the rush heroin gives(although trials have been done and subjects were not able to differentiate between the two drugs).

Developed by the Nazis, in fact.

It's appparently a MUCH harder addiction to kick than Heroin, but needs to be taken less frequently.

So essentially, what methadone clinics do is get people off heroin and addicted to methadone.

i will admit i am surpised it gives them the same high as taking heroin. I thought it had a simliar effect to nicotine, in that it helps ease the withdrawl effects of heroin.


Also, how were the heroin addicts not able to differentiate between the two? Was the methadone given to them by injection?

JC 2K3

Chucky the tree wrote:

Also, how were the heroin addicts not able to differentiate between the two? Was the methadone given to them by injection?

They were both taken orally IIRC.

Perhaps it is due to the fact that methadone is nearly always taken orally and heroin addicts nearly always inject. Or maybe methadone simply doesn't give the same rush when injected.

Chucky the tree

JC 2K3 wrote:

They were both taken orally IIRC.

Perhaps it is due to the fact that methadone is nearly always taken orally and heroin addicts nearly always inject. Or maybe methadone simply doesn't give the same rush when injected.

taking the heroin orally would probaly explain why they felt the effects were similiar.

chamar

zzzzzzzzzz

Diogenes

Chucky the tree wrote:

Your point of these?

Um, what? You claimed last post;

Only in very rare circumstance can they get take away

I am pointing out that the majority of Methadone users are outpatients who get "take aways". It can lead to tradegies such as the child who died in scotland last year after swallowing his parents methadone he found in the kitchen.

You cant just wonder into your local GP and ask him willy nilly for your methadone. Chances are you will have to be a regular and on the methadone treatment program a long time. Excact same with pharmacies.

You can't just wander willy nilly into your GP and ask for any drug period. Be it Methadone, Steroids, Anti Depressants etc... However you came on this thread claiming that people didn't get methadone "take away". They do. It's the most common method for people who are on methadone treatment to be treated as an outpatient to have their drugs supply to come through a clinic, a GP or pharmacy, and to take it home with them.

JC 2K3 wrote:

They were both taken orally IIRC.

Can you provide a link to this study? Anything. I've not heard of it. Incidently Methadone was not developed by the Nazis it was developed by two chemists in Nazi germany. The claims that it was developed by the Nazis stem from its american name "Dolphamine", with some people claiming it was called this in honour of Adolf Hitler (aDolphamine etc). Interesting Scientologists often spread this lie.

Chucky the tree wrote:

taking the heroin orally would probaly explain why they felt the effects were similiar.

Please stop. Seriously. You're so far out of your depth you're in dangerof getting the bends. The actual physical effect of Methadone is a longer lasting, less intense earlier buzz. Heroin gives that kick whether injected, snorted, or smoked. I've not heard of it being, suspended into a liquid, and injested. Liqiud heroin is usually used just for tranport and then it is evaporated into a powder for injestion...

Incidently a cursory google of liquid heroin will lead you to a story about puppies implated with liquid heroin as a smuggling method... :mad:

havana

Degsy wrote:

And now you're talking ****e..they can also get a prescription for what the call "take aways" which is a bottle that they buy in the chemist unsupervised and do whatever the hell they like with.Have you never seen them outside a methadone centre selling the stuff?Well take a trip down to pearse street before you start giving me crap.

For the most part you don't get given take aways or moved on to a community based prescribing scheme until the clinic decides you are relatively stable on your methadone and consistantly giving clean urines. And many people who get their phy in the chemist are also supervised in their consumption.

skyhighflyer

She gets no sympathy from me. She can die for all I care... I feel sorrier for all the people who are addicted to heroin and who never had a chance in life. Their destiny was almost pre-defined from the crappy circumstances they were born into. She has parents to support her and is from a decent family and she still managed to get addicted to heroin. And that whole thing about her being given the heroin by an "authority figure" at 13?

It sounds suspiciously like BS. How many parents wouldn't find out about their kid being offered heroin?? Major **** up on their part if so but I think this tool is trying to justify her own stupidity...

/dons flame suit and leves thread

thebaz

skyhighflyer wrote:

She gets no sympathy from me. She can die for all I care... I feel sorrier for all the people who are addicted to heroin and who never had a chance in life.
/dons flame suit and leves thread

Thats a bit harsh , i thought she is from the inner city herself , she obviously came from a troubled background whethere rich or poor !.
The success rate for getting completly clean from heroin/opiates is less than 10% , so when an addict gets clean they should get support , regardless of social standing in society.
Apparently in Iran at the turn of the last century opium , which is the pleasure ingrediant in heroin, was legal.
Something like 70% of the population became addicted both rich and poor !

rubadub

thebaz wrote:

Apparently in Iran at the turn of the last century opium , which is the pleasure ingrediant in heroin, was legal.

heroin is derived from opium and is far more addicitve than opium on its own.
It was legal here too, as were the majority of "recreational" drugs. Drug prohibition is a relatively new thing compared to the long history of use people once enjoyed.

Cocaine was a popular stimulant around that time. You hear some people saying "did you know coca-cola used to have cocaine in it!", as though this is some shocking fact!, coca-cola is named after the plant that cocaine is derived from, coca. But coke still contains another stimulant drug, caffeine! and people feed it to kids without a second thought, maybe next century people will be saying "did you know coca-cola used to have caffeine in it! and people let kids drink it!". There is a huge stigma attached to illegal drugs presuming they must be totally evil and ever user cannot ever take them in moderation, they are all on the verge of overdose. Yet people have no trouble accepting that people can enjoy legal recreational drugs in moderation, yet some do use them to excess.

Chucky the tree

Diogenes wrote:

Um, what? You claimed last post;



I am pointing out that the majority of Methadone users are outpatients who get "take aways". It can lead to tradegies such as the child who died in scotland last year after swallowing his parents methadone he found in the kitchen.

The outpatients have been regulars with the Methadone clincs for a long time before they are outpatients. The way it was portrayed on this thread it would leave people to believe that methadone was handed out to anyone who asked a GP for it. You will need to be a long time regular before you are given permission to get your methadone from your GP or pharmacy.

Since when do we live in Scotland?

Diogenes wrote:

You can't just wander willy nilly into your GP and ask for any drug period. Be it Methadone, Steroids, Anti Depressants etc... However you came on this thread claiming that people didn't get methadone "take away". They do. It's the most common method for people who are on methadone treatment to be treated as an outpatient to have their drugs supply to come through a clinic, a GP or pharmacy, and to take it home with them.

I should of made by point more clearly, but i rushed it and didnt. I apoligise. Again only regular drug patients will be allowed take-aways. New patients will be made take their methadone infront of the doctor in the clincs. They will supervise it. They will not be freely granted take-aways.

Unless you agree that Methadone patients are given 1000mls of methadone a day unspurvised?!

Degsy

Chucky the tree wrote:

The outpatients have been regulars with the Methadone clincs for a long time before they are outpatients. The way it was portrayed on this thread it would leave people to believe that methadone was handed out to anyone who asked a GP for it. You will need to be a long time regular before you are given permission to get your methadone from your GP or pharmacy.

Since when do we live in Scotland?



I should of made by point more clearly, but i rushed it and didnt. I apoligise. Again only regular drug patients will be allowed take-aways. New patients will be made take their methadone infront of the doctor in the clincs. They will supervise it. They will not be freely granted take-aways.

Unless you agree that Methadone patients are given 1000mls of methadone a day unspurvised?!

So when you said i was talking "****e",you were wrong,because you didnt know any better?

Diogenes

Chucky the tree wrote:

The outpatients have been regulars with the Methadone clincs for a long time before they are outpatients.

I'm sure you'll be able to give me a link to support that. I'm sorry if I sound skeptical of person who claimed methadone doesn't get you high a few posts ago.

The way it was portrayed on this thread it would leave people to believe that methadone was handed out to anyone who asked a GP for it.

Really? give me an example of post from someone on this thread who protrays it this way.

You will need to be a long time regular before you are given permission to get your methadone from your GP or pharmacy.

Again, fact, link evidence, anything?

Since when do we live in Scotland?

Scotland and Ireland's heroin detox program are remarkable similiar.

I should of made by point more clearly, but i rushed it and didnt. I apoligise. Again only regular drug patients will be allowed take-aways. New patients will be made take their methadone infront of the doctor in the clincs. They will supervise it. They will not be freely granted take-aways.

No sorry chucky you can backpeddle all you want but in black and blue you said;

Chucky the Tree wrote:

Only in very rare circumstance can they get take aways. They dont get it every week.

Also, why would junkies by methadone? It doesnt give you a high. Surely they would just buy herion if they had no interest in getting off it?

Two pieces of utter BS in one post.

You claimed that they don't get takeaways unless in rare circumstances, now you're claiming what you meant was that they don't get methadone starting off as an outpatient, but eventually they do.

If you want to admit you were mistaken in your first post fine. But don't try and pretend you were trying to say something that you clearly werent.

With respect you are still talking out of your arse, supervised methadone for the majority of addicts would require a GP to monitor them, as pretty much a full time job. Most heroin clincis outside major population centers have to do this, and it requires six visits to gp to get their drugs a week, and two for urine samples, a massive waste of resources, which most doctors oppose.

Don't believe me? Wander down to Pearse st dart center and watch the drugs superstore that exists with addicts selling their methadone.

Unless you agree that Methadone patients are given 1000mls of meth
adone a day unspurvised?!

No I don't.

You just made up that figure of 1000mls didn't you?

I'm just saying that because they don't measure drug dosage in "mls" they measure them in 'Mg". The amount of drugs that you're suggesting would kill several horses. The average daily dose ranges from 44mg to 120mg.

JC 2K3

Diogenes wrote:

Can you provide a link to this study? Anything. I've not heard of it. Incidently Methadone was not developed by the Nazis it was developed by two chemists in Nazi germany. The claims that it was developed by the Nazis stem from its american name "Dolphamine", with some people claiming it was called this in honour of Adolf Hitler (aDolphamine etc). Interesting Scientologists often spread this lie.

Well, by the same company(IG Farben) that manfactured the gas for the gas chambers in Nazi Germany, essentially making it a "Nazi Company", which I think makes it ok to say it was developped by the Nazis. Also, I've read several accounts that one of the reasons Methadone being developed because Nazi leaders who were heroin addicts couldn't access heroin during WW2(although I kinda doubt this). It says that oon this site and also refers to the blind trials I mentioned earlier: http://www.clearhavencenter.com/substance-abuse-treatment-resources/methadone.php

Chucky the tree

Diogenes wrote:

I'm sure you'll be able to give me a link to support that. I'm sorry if I sound skeptical of person who claimed methadone doesn't get you high a few posts ago.

I gooled for methadone clincs in Dublin but they didnt have a link detailing the way they treat patients. You suggesting every new patient is written a perscription for it and allowed take it by themselves straight away?

Diogenes wrote:

With respect you are still talking out of your arse, supervised methadone for the majority of addicts would require a GP to monitor them, as pretty much a full time job. Most heroin clincis outside major population centers have to do this, and it requires six visits to gp to get their drugs a week, and two for urine samples, a massive waste of resources, which most doctors oppose.

Methadone clinics in Dublin dont supervise any patietns taking methadone? I think they do.

Diogenes wrote:

No I don't.

You just made up that figure of 1000mls didn't you?

I'm just saying that because they don't measure drug dosage in "mls" they measure them in 'Mg". The amount of drugs that you're suggesting would kill several horses. The average daily dose ranges from 44mg to 120mg.

Degsy wrote:

A lot of the time they get a prescription for say,1000mls and they flog it outside the treatment centre and buy herion with the money.

Degsy

Chucky the tree wrote:

I gooled for methadone clincs in Dublin but they didnt have a link detailing the way they treat patients. You suggesting every new patient is written a perscription for it and allowed take it by themselves straight away?





Methadone clinics in Dublin dont supervise any patietns taking methadone? I think they do.

Well,you're wrong as usual.I allready explained about "take aways",somebody on 90ml a day would go through a 1000ml bottle fairly rapidly.A lot more rapidly if they were flogging it to thier mates(as they do).If you're strung out on banging heroin up,the physeptone you get from the doctor is a very poor substitute and they prefer to flog it and buy injectable gear instead.

havana

Users do NOT get given takeaways for quite a while - and will have their consumption and urines supervised for quite a while. No I don't have any links but I know how the system works.

The methadone protocol restricts how methadone can be prescribed and by whom. GPs have to recieve training before they join the scheme and there are 2 levels which determines the amount of patients a doctor can have. For the most part users are stabalised in clinics before being linked in with a GP.

Obviously the system here is not perfect (in fact its fairly cr*p) and like everything is open to abuse- of course phy gets sold on the street, but it is still fairly well controlled.

Diogenes

JC 2K3 wrote:

Well, by the same company(IG Farben) that manfactured the gas for the gas chambers in Nazi Germany, essentially making it a "Nazi Company", which I think makes it ok to say it was developped by the Nazis. Also, I've read several accounts that one of the reasons Methadone being developed because Nazi leaders who were heroin addicts couldn't access heroin during WW2(although I kinda doubt this). It says that oon this site and also refers to the blind trials I mentioned earlier: http://www.clearhavencenter.com/substance-abuse-treatment-resources/methadone.php

By that rational, volkswagons are a nazi car. The drug was invented as a sythnetic replacement for heroin. It was invented in 1937 when there was no war so it's doubtful it was created for Nazi leaders (whether the amount of nazi addicts to heroin justified such a experiment) as mentioned, scientologists spread alot of crap about nazis.

Also with respect, what is the scientific merit of performing the pepsi challenge with methadone with addicts.

Chuckythetree wrote:

I gooled for methadone clincs in Dublin but they didnt have a link detailing the way they treat patients. You suggesting every new patient is written a perscription for it and allowed take it by themselves straight away?

Again chucky this is nice and all, but I was originally posting to this comment by you;

Only in very rare circumstance can they get take aways. They dont get it every week.

You're now claiming that I'm suggesting that everyone walks into the clinic announces they're an addict, and gets a load of methadone. I'm not. I only responded to your orginial claim that addicts get a "take away" in exceptional circumstances. If you feel like shifting the goalposts fine, whatever you need to feel good about yourself, but the fact remains that the above rebuttal has nothing to do with your original point.

Methadone clinics in Dublin dont supervise any patietns taking methadone? I think they do.

A couple of posts ago you "thought" that methadone didn't get you high so you'll pardon me I don't think your "thoughts" on drugs treatment in this country aren't worth much.

havana wrote:

For the most part you don't get given take aways or moved on to a community based prescribing scheme until the clinic decides you are relatively stable on your methadone and consistantly giving clean urines. And many people who get their phy in the chemist are also supervised in their consumption.

Um how is something that the addict gets from a pharmacy in the chemist, the addict then takes this to where? A GP? A clinic? What we just assume the addict doesn't swig some on the way? Or claim he got mugged and lost it, and ask for a Re-Up?

Truthfully if you don't think hard pressed inner city drug centers don't do everything in their power to deal with the overwhelming flood of addicts, by occasionally shoving an addict who isn't a 100% clean, into a outpatient clinic to make room for another patient, or that an addict cannot fake providing clean urine?

JC 2K3

Diogenes wrote:

By that rational, volkswagons are a nazi car

No, by that rational Volkswagons are cars originally developped by the Nazis. There's a difference.

havana

Diogenes wrote:

Um how is something that the addict gets from a pharmacy in the chemist, the addict then takes this to where? A GP? A clinic? What we just assume the addict doesn't swig some on the way? Or claim he got mugged and lost it, and ask for a Re-Up?

Truthfully if you don't think hard pressed inner city drug centers don't do everything in their power to deal with the overwhelming flood of addicts, by occasionally shoving an addict who isn't a 100% clean, into a outpatient clinic to make room for another patient, or that an addict cannot fake providing clean urine?

Um, the chemist supervises it! And while I'm sure they do what they can to move people onto GPs etc (and why shouldn't they) GPs are only allowed a certain number of patients each, as are chemists, so one has to leave the system at the other end in order for that to happen. Just one of the reason why you can wait months to get on to a methadone clinic.

Diogenes

havana wrote:

Um, the chemist supervises it!

What? Seriously. What? Are you really suggesting a chemist supervises it? What he/she ensures the addict opens the methadone in the chemists, and swills it down, in front of other customers? What if the addict refuses and insists he's taking it with him? What if the addict get violent? No bloody chemist would agree to this fúcking absurd suggestion. A chemist gives you details of what the prescription is, and what the instructions are, no chemist has the right to supervise drug intact, and I'd love to see you provide a shred of evidence to support this inane claim.

And while I'm sure they do what they can to move people onto GPs etc (and why shouldn't they) GPs are only allowed a certain number of patients each, as are chemists, so one has to leave the system at the other end in order for that to happen. Just one of the reason why you can wait months to get on to a methadone clinic.

What? Honestly again what? Chemists are only allowed a "certain number of patients"? So you're telling me I cannot go into any chemist and get my perscription for asthma drugs filled, because on the off chance a chemist is full?

The reason you have to wait months to get on a methadone program is because there aren't enough places, period end of discussion.

JC 2K3 wrote:

No, by that rational Volkswagons are cars originally developped by the Nazis. There's a difference.

No..... see if something is developed by nazi's for the use of the nazi party then its developed by the Nazis. For example the V2 is a Nazi party. Methadone on the other hand was developed by two German chemists (not members of the Nazi party) during the reign of the Nazis, therefore its' not the same. But this is semantic quibbling. I'll say it again, the claim that methadone is a Nazi drug is propaganda spread by Scientologists to promote their cause and their opposition to the use of pharmacutials.

havana

Diogenes wrote:

What? Seriously. What? Are you really suggesting a chemist supervises it? What he/she ensures the addict opens the methadone in the chemists, and swills it down, in front of other customers? What if the addict refuses and insists he's taking it with him? What if the addict get violent? No bloody chemist would agree to this fúcking absurd suggestion. A chemist gives you details of what the prescription is, and what the instructions are, no chemist has the right to supervise drug intact, and I'd love to see you provide a shred of evidence to support this inane claim.


What? Honestly again what? Chemists are only allowed a "certain number of patients"? So you're telling me I cannot go into any chemist and get my perscription for asthma drugs filled, because on the off chance a chemist is full?

.

Apologies if I wansn't clear enough- GPs, depending on their level of training, are only allowed to presribe methadone to a cetain number of people. And the same applies to chemists.

Odysseus

Just to make a few points from someone who has worked in various treatment and rehab settings for ten years. Addiction is a complex issue and methadone is merely a opiate substitute, it is not a cure. Meth treatment in Ireland was introduced in relation to reducing crime and addressing fears in relation to HIV, moreso than treating the addict.

Meth treatment in Ireland can be viewed from two areas, Addiction Treatment Centres and GPs who provide treatment for addicts, those both are very similar. For a person to enter treatment they must firstly prove they are opiate dependent, this usually happens at a Treatment Centre. Once the start treatment they attent daily no take aways, dose is supervised by the pharamctist. In order to gain take aways TAs the person must provide heroin free urines, for each month of clean urines a TA is given. This is the general rule, exceptions may be made. Similar with a community GP the client generally collects the script and and the pharmacist supplies that, it could be daily supervised or a weekly script depending on the individuals progress, but at least one dose is supervised.

As I said addiction is a complex issue, some people present merely from free meth, others to change their lives, some abuse the system, as well as the staff, others don't. Is meth sold on the streets yes, however, do all addicts sell it no. Do some give false urines, yes, though it is hard to do this in a treatment centre as samples are supervised, but yes people put a lot of thought into doing this so sometimes people get away with it.

The biggest problem with treating opiate addicts is poly-drug use, the biggest problem over the years that I have experienced is benzo use on heroin use.

havana

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/pdf/methadone_review.pdf?direct=1

Old article pre protocol - http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=629380&issue_id=6279

Click the first link...

http://www.ipu.ie/index.php?searchword=methadone&option=com_search&Itemid=

Terry

regarding large bottles of methadone; i have sat in a pub with a heroin addict who produced a large bottle in front of me and told me what it was. it was about the size of a large bottle of cough medicine. i was informed that were i to drink some of it, that i would be dead within minutes as i have never taken heroin. they are available. i have seen it with my own eyes.

on the subject of legalisation of heroin, i once again ask the question 'where do you draw the line on who is given prescribed heroin?'

finally, might i once again make the suggestion that economic sanctions be placed on the countries of origin of these drugs until the relevant governments tackle the problem on the ground there.

Terry

chamar wrote:

zzzzzzzzzz

don't post in this thread again, unless you have something useful to add.

Odysseus

julep wrote:

regarding large bottles of methadone; i have sat in a pub with a heroin addict who produced a large bottle in front of me and told me what it was. it was about the size of a large bottle of cough medicine. i was informed that were i to drink some of it, that i would be dead within minutes as i have never taken heroin. they are available. i have seen it with my own eyes.

Yes it sure will, 50mg will kill a non-tolerant adult. The guy who produced it could be on a weekly TA, or he could have brought it. What we don't know here is whether he is a stable client deserving of a TA, or one who has managed to do the system, if you get my point.

Terry

he was actually prescribed it and he was trying to come off heroin at the time. that was 7 or 8 years ago though and he now still completely fooked up on heroin.

Diogenes

havana wrote:

Apologies if I wansn't clear enough- GPs, depending on their level of training, are only allowed to presribe methadone to a cetain number of people. And the same applies to chemists.

So we're clear the majority of addicts are treated outside of clinics and take their methadone unsupervised?

julep wrote:

finally, might i once again make the suggestion that economic sanctions be placed on the countries of origin of these drugs until the relevant governments tackle the problem on the ground there.

The major problem is this. Care to guess the country of origin for the majority of the world's heroin? Drumroll please, Afghanistan!

Yes Afghanistan, where once the Taliban proscribed the growing of poppies, they now actively encourage it as a major source of financing for their war aganist the Americans. War lords on the American's side also grow a far bit, but simply put, the Americans need their help and support and aren't going to quibble about a few poppy fields.

Meanwhile this is expected to be a bumper year for poppy fields. It's a bit difficult to enforce enconomic sanctions on a country who's only real export is heroin, and an enemy thats busy, lobbing mortars at your base, and murdering your translator's family.

Terry

so we can blame george bush for this one too? cool.

seriously though, pressure needs to be put on the american government in order to get them to force the... screw it. they don't listen to anyone.

there is still the golden triangle and crescent. picture.

havana

Diogenes wrote:

So we're clear the majority of addicts are treated outside of clinics and take their methadone unsupervised?

.

No- not the case. You asked me for evidence I gave you some. Can you back up your claims that 'the majority of addicts are treated outside of clinics and take their methadone unsupervised'


'At the end of December 2004, a total of 7,301 clients were receiving methadone treatment, 4,800 clients at specialist treatment centres and 2,501 clients from general practitioners.' from

http://www.hrb.ie/display_content.php?page_id=24&press_release_id=112