Resuables vs. disposables

Ayla

Come one and all who have a strong opinion on using reusable or disposable nappies.

This debate started a bit in the Green Baby forum (so feel free to check out the comments made there), but I thought it worthy of its own thread.

Now, I personally believe the environmental impact of either nappy system is debatable...and I'm not sure what side I'm on. The main factor, as I understand, with the disposables is the creation, distribution and landfill problem. On the other hand, you have issues with creation, distribution and maintenance of resuables. I'm personally not sure that one outweighs the other.

Then you do have the maintenance of reusables to think about. The possible soaking, then the washing, drying, etc. I'm not saying it's impossible to do (aren't we all knee deep in laundry already, so what's another load every couple of days?). I'm just bringing it up as a factor of the resuables.

So then we get to cost. Some say you can save tons by purchasing one lot of reusables and using them on multiple children. You can even purchase gently-loved and well-cared-for second-hand nappies for cheap. So over the lifetime of nappy usage, it may be possible to save money by using reusables.

But does the cost factor outweigh the maintenance?

That, I think, is the crux of the question...

And perhaps it just boils down to lifestyle, budget and priorities. For instance, if your children reguarly attend creche or you know yourself well enough to know a nappy washing schedule just won't work, then maybe the decision's simple. But for the rest of us who, like myself, will be living on one income and staying at home, slaving away with a washing machine already, perhaps the cost factor is more important?

I don't have the answers (and I couldn't claim to have a hold on the entire situation), I'm just posting the questions. Maybe looking for those out there who've actually tried both and asking what their experiences were?

Hobbes

as you said there is pretty much no difference between the two, and really depends on the lifestyle of the family.

But as I mentioned in the other thread, if your planning on doing it to be green you need to sending the waste to a composting factory or have the means to do it as anything sent to a landfill does not biodegrade (as there is no air).

Ickle Magoo

We used to use pampers active fit, now we use clothies....comparing the cost of pampers, refuse charges, wipes, etc, etc - clothies are much cheaper....I only do one more wash a wk, I dry pail so no water used there, I use washable wipes, so that saves money too....

I know you can buy cheap crappy nappies for 2c each & wet pail (which ruins most modern clothies) & do 5 extra washes a wk plus rinses & so even up the costs but our calculations compared what we had actually been using to what we would actually use.

I bought a lot of my nappies 2nd hand, I will sell them when I am finished (my nappies cost about €250 & will do at least 2 children & will sell on for at least €180 - no way sposies can compare to that!) - I like that side of it....I like the look of them, I like that they don't go to landfill (tho you can get Moltex sposies which can be composted), I like the way they look on the kids....I feel better with the kids in them & my pocket feels healthier....everyone's a winner!

On the down side they do take a bit of getting used to as there are so many types of clothy out there, big poos while out & about can be dealt with via flushable liners but I still have to carry the pooey nappy around with me. When you visit people for a wkend, not everyone wants you to use their machine for dirty nappies. Power cuts are a nightmare for clothie users, as are rainy days for drying. Not every child likes cloth nappies, they are much thinner than they used to be but not every baby appreciates the bulk. The extra effort of putting them together (pocket nappies) or the effort of finding nappy, wrap, nippa, etc....it can seem like a labour of love sometimes! :rolleyes:

We like them, the kids like them, it suits us....but I'm a SAHM & I was instantly attracted to clothies because of the general lifestyle we lead....it's definately not for everyone - whatever suits you....:)

englander

I wouldn't have thought there is much in it.

We were considering the supposed greener option of reusable nappies but then we read a report somewhere (think it was in the Times - sorry no link) where they weighed up the cost in money terms and environmental terms of reusable v. disposable and they came out about equal.

They compared things like the energy used to manufacture the disposables versus the energy to rinse/clean/dry reusables.

I have no experience with reusables but after a year of nappy changing I dont think I like the idea of reusables. I'd always be of the opinion that they weren't clean enough (you must have to wash at a very high temperature ? - in which case couldn't wash with most of our daily clothes.)

Think we'll stick with disposables for now.

Ayla

Englander -

From what I've read, complete sanitation of nappies happens when you wash them at 60C for about 3 minutes. This happens normally with most washers on a normal-enough cycle.

Therefore I understand you can wash them with any other clothes/towels/etc and everything comes out perfectly wearable and usable.

Just food for thought

loyatemu

Ayla wrote:

Englander -

From what I've read, complete sanitation of nappies happens when you wash them at 60C for about 3 minutes. This happens normally with most washers on a normal-enough cycle.

i'm not sure what type of clothes you wear but practically everything I own says 40 degrees on the label and this is absolutely not hot enough to clean soiled nappies.

personally we have enough washing drying and other stuff to be doing without worrying about washing nappies as well - our youngest is going through 6/7 nappies a day. the disposables do cost a bloody fortune though.

Ayla

Just as a follow up to the last message, I checked my washer last night, and these are the temp settings it has for the various washes:

-Cotton, main wash: 90
-Cotton, eco wash: 60
-Cotton, mini wash: 40

-Synthetics, eco wash: 60

-Wollens, main wash: 40

My hubby and I have been washing all of our stuff on the cotton eco wash for almost a year now (it seemed like the standard cycle), so all of our clothes have been washed at 60 for a long time. We've only just found the 40 C cycle, and have been using that to cut back on electricity. We haven't noticed any change in our clothes, and it doesn't appear to have harmed them in any way to wash them at 60 for a year.

Ickle Magoo

I wash the nappies in with everything else that goes on a 60wash (towels/bed clothes/bibs/etc), they don't get rinsed, they don't get soaked, they don't get boil washed....using flushable liners means very little solids actually get on the nappy....

It's not for everyone granted....but I wish folks could just admit they like the throw-away nature of disposables or that they don't want to be scraping poo off nappies rather than citing that report which used the cheapest disposable methods Vs the most expensive clothie methods to try & seem like they were even money....it's hardly a fair comparison...it also completely missed out the brilliant sell-on value that clothies have....

Debracd

We tried reusables a few times(as in for a few weeks at a time), but every time DD ended up with terrible a terrible bum rash! I love the idea of them, they've come so far over the years and alot of the newer nappies aren't much bulier than a disposable and would save money in the long run if they worked out. But they didn't work for our little one at all.

I think you have to change how you wash Everything in order to get the best out of the nappies. I was using regular washing powder for our clothes but a tiny drop of ecover and vinegar for the nappies. It was a complete waste because the washing powder had already built up in the washing machine again by the time I'd wash the nappies and built up on the nappies anyway(most likely cause of rashes!).

I hated the feel of the clothes just washed in Ecover and vinegar though and it didn't remove alot of the stains from the older kids clothes(mucky so and so's!) so short of buying a second washing maching for nappies(not very cost effective!) or putting up with grass and mud stains ingrained into the older kids clothes there was no way we could keep it up:o

Well done to those who stick with it though! It really is a labour of love

Deb

The Hill Billy

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I wish folks could just admit they like the throw-away nature of disposables or that they don't want to be scraping poo off nappies rather than citing that report which used the cheapest disposable methods Vs the most expensive clothie methods to try & seem like they were even money....it's hardly a fair comparison...

Fair comment.

Myself & Mrs Billy used disposables because they were convenient. (There - I said it.) We considered it too much hassle to go down the clothie route as we knew we'd have enough to deal with trying to cope as parents.

Our lad is out of nappies now, & in hindsight I feel that we made the right decision. When our next one arrives - we'll do the same again.

Ickle Magoo

Debracd wrote:

Well done to those who stick with it though! It really is a labour of love Deb

Well, 99.9% of the time it's easy peasy & not a question of "sticking at" anything ....and I have only one machine & use two seperate powders, lol!

Crea

I used disposables on my 2 and never even seriously considered cloth nappies. I have vivid memories of the nappy bucket in the corner of the bathroom filling up with smelly nappies and having to flush the crap out of them. I like that with disposables you just take them off, wipe babs down, roll the nappy up and throw them out. I've 2 in nappies and couldn't imagine dealing with coth for both of them. I changed to Lidl nappies once they reduced their bottles and the cost is much cheaper than the branded nappies.
Second hand cloth nappies???? How does that work?

Ickle Magoo

Crea wrote:

Second hand cloth nappies???? How does that work?

How would it not work? Check out the buy & sell in most parenting websites/e-bay & you will find loads of folks selling on or swapping nappies....once washed they are clean you know, lol!

Debracd

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I have only one machine & use two seperate powders, lol!

That just didn't work for us. The build up in the machine was unreal. I actually sold some on to another mum and it took 3 or 4 washes to get the build up out. I do at least 1 wash a day of normal washing, so when I washed the nappies once a week the machine had built up powder in the workings from the 6 or 7 previous washes which transferred onto the nappies.

Just giving MY experince Icle Magoo:)

Ickle Magoo

I know Debs, your final sentance made it sound like clothies in general are very hard work & people who use them should somehow be congratulated for slaving over them - I was just pointing out, that is just in YOUR experience

And it's Ickle Magoo

Debracd

It probably did IcKle Magoo(previous was just a typo ), but I simply meant that though I'm sure I could have found another way around the rash problem if I was 100% Committed(ie quit using normal washing power altogether!), I liked the cloth nappy thing but didn't love it enough to give up my fabric conditioner lol

And fair play to those who do hit problems but stick with it because they are committed enough to lowering their environmental impact and keeping nappies out of landfills

Deb

Ickle Magoo

I knew what you meant Debra, I'm being pedantic ....there are days (big poos that go everywhere, hubby forgets to turn the washing machine on & I run out of nappies, etc) when I really miss sposies....so to a large extent you are right, clothies do require more "effort"....it's all down to the other benefits ie environment, cost, or whatever & if folks think the extra effort is worth it!

Wolff

what about the stink - friends of our use disposables and other friends recycle - and their houses stink of sh!te !!

especially last week...

Ickle Magoo

Wolff wrote:

what about the stink - friends of our use disposables and other friends recycle - and their houses stink of sh!te !!

especially last week...

Which ones do you mean? I used to hate the stink of rotting sposies in my kitchen bin yet there is very little smell unless I open it from my sealed cloth nappy bin....and even then the smell is predominantly vinegar & tea-tree oil....:) If you mean clothies, I think if the nappy bin they use is "stinking" they aren't storing them properly...

dame

Isn't there some medical reason for using cloth nappies? As far as I know, sometimes breech presentation babies can have problems with their hips which can be corrected by using big bulky cloth nappies to keep the little legs apart and supported. If cloth nappies can cure a problem rather than operating on the child or putting them in a plaster cast then fantastic!

We use disposables and always put them straight out in the wheelie bin. I couldn't stand any bin smell in the kitchen, let alone nappy smells! Disposables are just so much handier, especially when out and about. As others have said, they have to carry around the cloth ones with them, lovely!

Incidentally, do any of the people posting here who use cloth nappies use daycare/creche facilities for their child? How do the creche staff feel about having separate (I presume) nappy bins for each child/family?

Debracd

Wolff wrote:

what about the stink - friends of our use disposables and other friends recycle - and their houses stink of sh!te !!

especially last week...

Like Ickle Magoo said, there's no stink when they're stored properly(until you lift the lid of the sealed bin;) ).

Dame, there are definitely creches who cater for clothies out there But afaik they're stored in either a waterproof(both ways!)ziplock or drawstring bag in the babys bag until home time so no separate nappy bin per baby

Deb

Ickle Magoo

dame wrote:

Incidentally, do any of the people posting here who use cloth nappies use daycare/creche facilities for their child? How do the creche staff feel about having separate (I presume) nappy bins for each child/family?

I have one child at creche & there are lots of children there who's nappies leak onto their clothes, they are sick, etc, etc and they don't have a bin for every childs clothes...they treat cloth nappies the same way they treat the clothes - flushable liner is disposed of & nappy is rolled up & popped in a nappy sack for me to deal with when I get home.

Ayla

Debracd wrote:

I think you have to change how you wash Everything in order to get the best out of the nappies. I was using regular washing powder for our clothes but a tiny drop of ecover and vinegar for the nappies. It was a complete waste because the washing powder had already built up in the washing machine again by the time I'd wash the nappies and built up on the nappies anyway(most likely cause of rashes!).

Deb -

Is there a reason why you didn't want to use your regular washing powder on the nappies? From what I've heard and read, if your baby's ok w/ the powder you use on their clothes/blankets/everything else, there really isn't a reason to have to change detergents. I know the nappy region is a bit more sensitive than the rest of the body, but did you try washing the nappies in the regular powder?

Also, I've heard the Ecover stuff is bad for the nappies b/c it can actually cause a residue build-up (and eventual rash). The idea is that you don't need much detergent at all, it's just more important to get the nappies to 60C for a bit and the rest takes care of itself. The vinegar is used in the rinse cycle then just to soften the effects of hard water (which I know we have here in Donegal).

Debracd

Hi Ayla, from what I had read on some sites it was recommended to use Ecover for washing and Vinegar as the fabric softener. I also tried using a tiny amount of regular non bio liquid as opposed to powder but got the same result I'm afraid! DD has very sensitive skin and gets rashes around her wrists and neck area from things like fleece babygrows(you know the zip up type?), so I couldn't even use fleece liners in the nappies to wick the damp away from her bum so she ended up very sore.

I didn't actually realise the build up in the nappies was so bad until I sold them on as I said, so there's just no knowing whether it was that or just the dampness on her bottom that caused her rash, but I'm not even going to try again. It's just not worth having a happy little tot completely miserable for a few days because I want to use cloth nappies And besides, she doesn't want ANY nappy on at the moment, she wants to use the potty:eek:

Deb

Ayla

Debracd wrote:

It's just not worth having a happy little tot completely miserable for a few days because I want to use cloth nappies And besides, she doesn't want ANY nappy on at the moment, she wants to use the potty

I completely agree - what works for some doesn't work for all. It's always best to put the needs of your wee one first, and if disposables worked better than clothies then it's good that you learned that. At least you gave clothies a good honest try

Good luck w/ the potty training.

dame

Oops, forgot about those disposable flushable liner thingies - that would make things a bit handier alright!

EcologiKids

On the other thread there was references made to the research that was done in the cost comparison. can I be clear and say that the 31.X cent was the AVERAGE price per disposable nappies. It included all brands, including tesco, pampers, huggies, boots own, and lots more and it also included ALL sizes, pull up pants etc....to try to get the most accurate average price. Just wanted to clear that up.

As regards to the report that said that disposables and reusables used much the same / energy resources, that was undertaken in 1990 by the Environment agency in the uk. Since then there has been another report by Landbank Consultants to look into the raw data that the Enviornment agency used in it's report. What they found was that the ASSUMPTIONS about number of nappies, temperature of washes, number of washes a week was not in keeping with what was actually happening with cloth nappy users - ie that their assumptions were not representative as they were based on 2 (TWO) nappy users out of the hundreds of thousands that use them in the UK. The report was also based on the life of 1 nappy - 1 reusable vs. 1 cloth nappy. The reality is that a baby can go through as many as 6000 disposables vs using 24 cloth nappies (which can then be used on another child as well) - again, the assumption here while accurate is biased as there is a SIGNIFICANT difference in the amount of energy used in 6000 nappies vs. 24. Also take into consideration the distribution and petrol used in transporting 6000 nappies vs. 24. There is much more to the argument than that report includes.

just some food for thought on the people who went off and did research on the findings there.

re making baby happy & healthy - YES that is definetly the most important thing. Debs, I know you tried everything missus.

Loyatemu, as regards washing the nappy at 40 or 60 - NHS guidelines say 3 mins at 72 will disinfect, and 10 mins at 63 will also do the same therefore 60 degree over a longer time (say 12 - 15 mins) will also do the same. If clothie users babies (most of whom wash at 60 and some even at 40) weren't being properly cleaned we would all have babies with terrible rashes - which we don't. A lot of clothie users also use a couple drops of tea tree oil in the drawer during the wash cycle. Tea tree is a natural disinfectant and antiseptic therefore the nappies are being disinfected during the wash cycle at whatever temperature.

re: clothies at creche. yes the drawstring waterproof bags are ideal for storing nappies. The smell issue tbh isn't as much of an issue as people think. cloth nappies actually tend to smell less than disposables because there are no chemicals in them for the urine to react with - they actually smell less than disposables (in my experience).


re: the price of disposables vs. reusables....as i explained above, the 31.7 c was arrived at by collating ALL nappy brands prices, ALL sizes etc. If you do use cheaper nappies, they tend not to be as absorbent as the more expensive ones therefore most times parents will use MORE nappies... edited to add that the more expensive brands of disposable nappies actually hold the greatest market share (up around the 90% of market share at the top cost end of disposables).

Also..cloth nappies usually don't end up in the dump, most times when they've reached the end of their life span after being used on SEVERAL children, you can recycle them in the textiles boxes and they can be made into something else. Or else used as dusters, mops, clean up clothes etc.

Hobbes you mention that polyacrolyte has not found to be harmful outside the body. What about when baby has nappy rash and there are open sores on the bum area? This happen to plenty of babies - I would not like to take the chance that polyacrolyte does not get into the blood stream that way. Not to mention that little babies have very thin skin and therefore it's easier for them to absorb external chemicals etc. NOTE: polyacrolyte has only ever been tested by the FDA (in the US), there has been no european or independent testing on it or it's effect over long time (frankly it hasn't been around long enough). Not only that, TBT's HAVE been found in some nappy brands - it's a particularly nasty chemical that is used on paint for ships and is known to cause gender changes in some molluscs. This has been found in the waist bands of some dispoable nappy brands in the past. Again, I would not want to put something like that against my baby's skin.

Just wanted to add that nappy companies are not regulated nor are they required to list out the ingredients in their nappies - therefore nobody actually knows exactly what type of plastics and chemicals are in them. Unfortunately, they have much bigger marketing budgets than any cloth nappy manufacturer/retailer therefore their 'stay dry' 'ease of use' message is prolific and is now accepted as 'the norm' in public opinion.

so that's my 2 cents worth. I made my choice for my children and I respect each and every other parent's choice. To borrow someone else's words, I'm a cloth advocate - not militant. I just felt I would like to add in some of my knowledge as I have researched the area extensively at this point and have also been involved in some of the research mentioned above and felt some points should be clarified.

Great topic and great points everyone.

Ayla

For any of you who are looking for a good place to find a website to buy or sell pre-owned reusables, check out this one:

http://www.thenappylady.co.uk/Other/ClassifiedAds.asp

It's really up-to-date and I found *a lot* that interested me

Khannie

Ickle Magoo wrote:

It's not for everyone granted....but I wish folks could just admit they like the throw-away nature of disposables or that they don't want to be scraping poo off nappies

I admit it. Great observation.

Ickle Magoo

Khannie wrote:

I admit it. Great observation.

You'd think, eh? I know a lady who came out with all kinds of rediculous excuses & made some sly comments on my using cloth before admitting she found the smell of her kids poo horrible & just wanted them cleaned, wiped & renappied ASAP....I don't find it exactly perfume myself but for many of the reasons already given here I find it's worth the horrific sacrifice of throwing the liner in the loo & the odd bit of wiping, lol! I know other mums who don't use liners & scrape poo - even newborn breastfed poo - off nappies & survive....wierd huh?!;)

Khannie

Ickle Magoo wrote:

wierd huh?!;)

Heh. Yup! Though this is what my mother did with me. Disposables were around at the time, but she didn't like the idea of them, so stuck with the toweling nappies (we're talking mid-70's here, so no liners, bulky yokes, etc.).