Ford vs Toyota

Squirrel

Henry Ford III wrote:

1/. I do not believe that. Your posts have always been 100% pro Toyota. I've quried your abilty to be impartial before Colm, and I'm doing it again now.

2/. Perhaps they are correct? They are independent after all, unlike you.

3/. A well engineered and sorted car should be able to handle all conditions, evenm extreme ones. Emergencies happen everyday and handling is a key to avoiding a crash. If you choose to ignore the limitations of the chassis so be it. Other unblinkered consumers may think differently.

4/. There are plenty of other comparable cars around that score the same Euro NCap marks. How safe is an Avensis in the event of it hitting a pedestrian?

We could go on and on with this but I think my point is made.

1/ He said they were his views, due to the experience he's had of other cars. I like Ferrari's and will be biased towards them in any way I can, I don't work for them

2/ His views are his views, not his views as a Toyota dealer

3/ Handling isn't a key to avoiding crashes, observation and knowing what to do when there's an emergency. Put me in a Ferrari F355 and my dad in a Lada for example in the exact same "extreme" situation at the same speed in the same conditions and I could nearly guarantee that I'd come off much worse and I, for one doubt a Lada handles better than a Ferrari F355.

4/ Mondeo, Avensis

Oh, and I'm not really a fan of either marque, except the MR2 and Supra and to a lesser extent the Celica for Toyota, and probably the old Cougar and of course the GT

Henry Ford III

It does handle well I agree. The Fords handle much better however.

Dynamically Corolla/Avensis do not come close. That's a view shared by numerous motoring correspondents btw.

sneakyST

I think toyota make great but ugly, ugly boring cars and i would associate a corrolla or avensis with middle age folk.
Having said that if i was buying a 4x4 it would be a toyota D4D 3 litre, cracking engines. I drove a hilux in Australia and it got me out of some very deep soft sand...great yoke.
Choosing between a mondy/avensis, focus/corolla well it would be the fords every time.
p.s all base model cars are horrible and should not be bought

bazz26

sneakyST wrote:

I think toyota make great but ugly, ugly boring cars and i would associate a corrolla or avensis with middle age folk.

Again the looks of a car totally depends on personal preference, beauty is only in the eye of the beholder, etc.

Personnally I find the current Mondeo and Focus to be just as uninspiring designs on the outside/inside as their Toyota counterparts. It seems a shame really imo that Ford concentrate so much on chassis design but then become so conservative with exterior and cabin designs. (Except for the MkI Focus)

Henry Ford III

bazz26 wrote:

Again the looks of a car totally depends on personal preference, beauty is only in the eye of the beholder, etc.

Agreed, but dynamic ability is measurable.

p.s. Honda Accord (and non hatchback Civic) drivers in the UK are generally older folks, often pensioners in fact.

Dcully

lol funnier thread by the minute.

sneakyST

bazz26 wrote:

Again the looks of a car totally depends on personal preference, beauty is only in the eye of the beholder, etc.

Absolutely.....which is why we all buy different cars, come on motor boards and kill each other trying to establish which is best.:D

bazz26

sneakyST wrote:

Absolutely.....which is why we all buy different cars, come on motor boards and kill each other trying to establish which is best.:D

So true, and my dad is bigger than your dad too btw.

Vegeta

bazz26 wrote:

Again the looks of a car totally depends on personal preference, beauty is only in the eye of the beholder, etc.

Personnally I find the current Mondeo and Focus to be just as uninspiring designs on the outside/inside as their Toyota counterparts. It seems a shame really imo that Ford concentrate so much on chassis design but then become so conservative with exterior and cabin designs. (Except for the MkI Focus)

the Ka!

Vegeta

interesting views all round.

There are some toyota fan boys and some ford fan boys in here alright.

I drive a toyota but prefer the current gen of fords and if i was buying a new car tomorrow it'd be a high spec tdci mondeo.

unkel

maidhc wrote:

Boring is very sujective. A BMW 3 series is every bit as "boring" as an Avensis, especially one with a sub 2000cc engine

I've no time for 4 pot 3-series but I'd rather drive a low end 3-series than a middle or high end Avensis. Oh, wait. There is no middle or high end Avensis

colm_mcm wrote:

My views on Toyota havew little to do with who I work for

Let us all get this straight, can you confirm once and for all that you do NOT work for Toyota directly or indirectly?

I got the impression that you do work for Toyota from your past posts

bazz26

unkel wrote:

I've no time for 4 pot 3-series but I'd rather drive a low end 3-series than a middle or high end Avensis. Oh, wait. There is no middle or high end Avensis

Thankfully image or social climbing is not important to some people. Some people may prefer to be seen in a half hearted attempt by a German marque at trying to make a somewhat affordable car rather than be seen driving something Japanese. To me those people are lacking something else in their life. No cd player, no air con, some even with no rear electric windows. But hey its a BMW and rwd so it must be good. After all the Germans invented the wheel and the poor old Japs only copied it.

Just out of curiosity is your opinion of the Avensis based on driving experience? Not having a go at you btw as you are entitled to your opinion the same as very one else but just curious.

My opinion is based on what I have driven. I have driven my cousin's 318Ci (who has since traded it for an IS200) and I don't know where all this hype about BMWs comes from as I was not overly impressed with it. It was definately not the "Ultimate driving machine".

Given a choice between a 316i and an Avensis, every time I will choose my Avensis.

Henry Ford III

colm_mcm wrote:

My views on Toyota havew little to do with who I work for.....

We believe you. Honestly :rolleyes:

maidhc

unkel wrote:

I've no time for 4 pot 3-series but I'd rather drive a low end 3-series than a middle or high end Avensis. Oh, wait. There is no middle or high end Avensis

Unkel, you seem to be a very sensible and intelligent person.. so I must beg the question as to why?

The Avensis is quite well specified and it has no shortage of toys like alloys, climate control, x no of airbags, i pod connections and even a the diesel now has a six speed gearbox as standard. All for about 32k list (2.0 D4D).

A 318d will cost about 45k, and while it may indeed corner better, it is probably inferior in every other way. It wont have half the standard equipment, the engine will be down on power in comparison, and for your money you still wont have a particularly nice looking car.

Interesting thread though. We have always owned Fords and Toyotas at home, and it is hard to decide between them at times. I think it must be ford though.

unkel

bazz26 wrote:

Just out of curiosity is your opinion of the Avensis based on driving experience?

Not driven it myself, but been driven in it for a couple of thousand miles after my regular taxi driver switched from E-class 200D to Avensis D-4D two years ago. Awful for his punters, but made total sense money wise for him

I've never driven a 4 pot BMW by the way, only 6 and 8. No interest in it either. But if I were forced to either drive a low-spec 316 or a decent-spec 2.0 Avensis, which is about the same price, I'd go for the 316. It does have a CD player BTW

I wouldn't like having to rev the bejaysis out of the 316 to make it move a bit though

It's all hypothetical, I'd never buy either car new anyway as y'all know and I can see why the majority of people in Ireland buy cars like an Avensis or an Octavia

maidhc wrote:

climate control

I rarely use it normally, but it sure was a big relief to have it the last week

bazz26

unkel wrote:

Not driven it myself, but been driven in it for a couple of thousand miles after my regular taxi driver switched from E-class 200D to Avensis D-4D two years ago.

It sounds to me like your taxi friend had a certain budget and bought the best car available within that budget. Obvioulsy MB are not up to job anymore.

unkel wrote:

I've never driven a 4 pot BMW by the way, only 6 and 8. No interest in it either. But if I were forced to either drive a low-spec 316 or a decent-spec 2.0 Avensis, which is about the same price, I'd go for the 316.

Just goes to show some still put the badge above substance. You should really try a basic 316/318, etc. Low end German cars generally are really on a different planet to their more expensive varients.

unkel wrote:

It does have a CD player BTW

Only since about 2002 afaik.

unkel

bazz26 wrote:

It sounds to me like your taxi friend had a certain budget and bought the best car available within that budget

He used to buy a brand new E-class every two years for the last 30 years and he still has the budget to continue to do that

bazz26 wrote:

Obvioulsy MB are not up to job anymore.

That's the finger on the sore spot. He has had some issues and MB customer service was not great. A taxi driver cannot afford to have his car off the road. Toyota customer service was much better and obviously the Avensis is a lot cheaper to run. Decision made. Not just himself, thousands of taxi drivers on the continent are switching over from MB to other cars

bazz26 wrote:

Just goes to show some still put the badge above substance

No, the other way around. Even low power 316 is a better drivers' car than an Avensis. Weight distribution, RWD, suspension, etc. I don't care much about badges and generally remove them

Substance is not in alloys, aircon, leccie windows in the back and cd-players imho

bazz26 wrote:

Only since about 2002 afaik.

The OP was referring to new cars

maidhc

unkel wrote:

No, the other way around. Even low power 316 is a better drivers' car than an Avensis. Weight distribution, RWD, suspension, etc. I don't care much about badges and generally remove them

You would take a Mondeo with a decent lump of an engine though. I hope.

I dont see how a low powered car can ever make a good drivers car, unless you rarely encounter hills. See the earlier posts regarding 1.4 Foci.

ninty9er

bazz26 wrote:

It sounds to me like your taxi friend had a certain budget and bought the best car available within that budget. Obvioulsy MB are not up to job anymore.



Just goes to show some still put the badge above substance. You should really try a basic 316/318, etc. Low end German cars generally are really on a different planet to their more expensive varients.



Only since about 2002 afaik.

My mam's friend has a 03 318ci with leather alloys wood look dash, but no CD player. BMW are just stingy

colm_mcm

Henry Ford III wrote:

1/. I do not believe that. Your posts have always been 100% pro Toyota. I've quried your abilty to be impartial before Colm, and I'm doing it again now.

2/. Perhaps they are correct? They are independent after all, unlike you.

3/. A well engineered and sorted car should be able to handle all conditions, even extreme ones. Emergencies happen everyday and handling is a key to avoiding a crash. If you choose to ignore the limitations of the chassis so be it. Other unblinkered consumers may think differently.

4/. There are plenty of other comparable cars around that score the same Euro NCap marks. How safe is an Avensis in the event of it hitting a pedestrian?

We could go on and on with this but I think my point is made.

1) I am not a fully paid up member of the church of Toyota, they do have their weak points, and often are slow to react to markets. If anyone ever asks my opinion on a Toyota, I'll answer it based on my experience of the brand. With respect, someone who works with them and drives them day-to-day will be in a better position to reccomend or criticise a particular model over another. There are a lot of people criticising cars that they have never even driven, and are relying on hearsay to form an opinion. If I criticise a Passat for being slow, or a Yaris for having a small boot, it'll because I've seen it first hand - not read it in Top Gear.

2) Motoring columns would be very dull if it weren't for criticisms. and a nice way of reporting on what a car is like to drive is to loon it round a track and see what happens. Fair enough it can expose a flawed chassis, but just because a Corolla doesn't handle as sharply as a Focus (and it doesn't!) doesn't mean that it's a deathtrap and willl turn over if you try to avoid something.

3) Most crashes I've seen involve human error, and couldn't be attributed to a chassis not being as responsive as another. Even an Avensis is capable of swerving round obstacles

4) The Avensis' pedestrian impact score is 22%, It should be noted however, that at the time the Mondeo was tested, pedestrian impact rating hadn't started. In fact, when tested in the upper leg, adult head, and leg impact - the Mondeo didn't even reach the proposed minimum legislation standards.

bazz26

unkel wrote:

No, the other way around. Even low power 316 is a better drivers' car than an Avensis. Weight distribution, RWD, suspension, etc. I don't care much about badges and generally remove them

I agree, the 316 may have better handling than the Avensis but lets be fair a 1.6 car is hardly a drivers' car" even if it is rwd. And the Avensis hardly has the handling of a barg. A better word is "predictable" if anything else but may be this what some people find to be not enough for them?

unkel wrote:

Substance is not in alloys, aircon, leccie windows in the back and cd-players imho

Agree also but equally it is not about a car pretending to be something it ain't. An Avensis is not pretending to be a sports saloon whereas imo a 316/318 is.

Anyway Unkel we obviously have different opinions on both brands so lets leave it with you like your BMWs and I like my Toyotas, that's not gone to change and this topic is dragging on into bordum and OT. The OP must have gone on holidays by know.

unkel

ninty9er wrote:

My mam's friend has a 03 318ci with leather alloys wood look dash, but no CD player. BMW are just stingy

I agree. Fortunately for the buyers of new low end BMWs in Ireland, BMW itself took over the distribution a few years ago. All Irish BMWs are now the same spec as UK BMWs

Until BMW went out and introduced this new special 1.6l 316i especially for the Irish market* :rolleyes:

* and perhaps a few other high tax markets - I don't know

unkel

bazz26 wrote:

I think forming an opinion of a car from experience of driving it rather than what some guy wrote in an article in a newspaper or magazine, etc is much more valid.

Disagree. I tend to believe reviews by professional journos especially if there is a general concensus amongst them

Obviously driving a car yourself adds a subjective component which is most important. What's the point in owning a car one doesn't like, even if it is deemed to be very good?

I tend not to believe a bloke on the internet when he claims that the car he owns is very good at something when the concensus amongst those journos is the very opposite

maidhc wrote:

The Avensis does handle well. It doesn't feel as steady as say a focus or mondeo, and it has far too much body roll for my liking

But still it handles well?

ninty9er

unkel wrote:

I agree. Fortunately for the buyers of new low end BMWs in Ireland, BMW itself took over the distribution a few years ago. All Irish BMWs are now the same spec as UK BMWs

Until BMW went out and introduced this new special 1.6l 316i especially for the Irish market* :rolleyes:

* and perhaps a few other high tax markets - I don't know

My mam's cousin lives in the UK and comes over every nopw and again by ferry. Last time he had a 05 320.

He had to tick a box to get a CD player

unkel

ninty9er wrote:

05 320. He had to tick a box to get a CD player

Nah, all BMWs have come with cd players as standard for a good few years now. Even the lowly 1.6 316i and 1.6 116i have a CD player

Even if they didn't, one could always run into Lidl or Aldi and get a CD player. Last time I looked they were €29.99

maidhc

unkel wrote:

Disagree. I tend to believe reviews by professional journos especially if there is a general concensus amongst them

The Irish motoring correspondents are quite good. Michael Moroney in the Irish Farmers Journal is actually one of the best, and is one of the few who gives a car a completely rotten review from time to time.

E.g. this perfectly accurate review of an Audi A4:
http://www.farmersjournal.ie/2006/0617/ruralliving/countrylifestyle/motoring.shtml

However the sponsored crap you read in What Car and the likes is best left unread.

unkel wrote:

But still it handles well?

Yes, it most certainly does. You have been indoctrinated by english mags.

It isn't as much fun or as agile as a focus, but lets face it, neither is a big heavy luxobarge set up for comfort like the 7 series. The Avensis does what is asked of it, no more, no less.

unkel

maidhc wrote:

You have been indoctrinated by english mags.

I don't read english mags

maidhc wrote:

The Irish motoring correspondents are quite good. Michael Moroney in the Irish Farmers Journal is actually one of the best

And sorry, I have never even heard of the Irish Farmers Journal before

I'm not the kind of bloke to be easily indoctrinated either. Surely you know that much about me by now

maidhc wrote:

a big heavy luxobarge set up for comfort like the 7 series

Where did you get that from? That might apply to luxobarges sold in the US, where sales of wobbly toyotas branded as Lexus are great

Google and you shall find nice reviews of the E38 7 series with the V8 M62 petrol engine

maidhc

unkel wrote:

Where did you get that from? That might apply to luxobarges sold in the US, where sales of wobbly toyotas branded as Lexus are great

But it is still, what, 2 tons? Making 2 tons take corners like a car of half its weight surely sretches the laws of physics with so much more monentum?

My biggest criticism of the Avensis is still its reliability! It failed its first NCT during the week for having a dodgy offside shock and a wonky headlamp. I don't think that should happen at 90k.

(BTW I love large BMWs, and will own one when the gods smile! I really admire the fact they can compete at all with GM, Ford, Daimlerchrysler and VAG considering they are such a tiny privately owned company)

bazz26

unkel wrote:

Disagree. I tend to believe reviews by professional journos especially if there is a general concensus amongst them

Again even professional journalists can be subjective or even controversial, it's human nature. Take J Clarkson for example, at times he is controversial for the sake of it, he believes his own hype and it has worked for him over the years and has made a nice living out of it. I think there are alot of Clarkson wannabes out there in the motor press. Alot have formed opinions about certain cars before they even test drive them. How many articles have read where the first line is "I didn't look forward to getting into car" blah, blah, etc. Clarkson does it.

unkel wrote:

I tend not to believe a bloke on the internet when he claims that the car he owns is very good at something when the concensus amongst those journos is the very opposite

Don't know if that is directed at me but I don't claim my car is very good or the best at handling, etc. But it is amusing when I read certain comments on here about cars like the Avensis claiming the car should be avoided because it doesn't handle as good as a BMW, your more likely to crash it because it doesn't corner like a Ford or people who drive this type of car don't have a clue or have no interest in cars. These type of comments are rubish imho and tend to be formed from what somebody read or heard somewhere else rather than from first hand experience. As someone else said the Avensis does what it is supposed to do, no more or no less. It is a medium sized family saloon. It isn't pretending to be anything else and neither am I claiming it to be.

Apologies if this has turned into a bit of a rant.

mike65

I can't belive Unkel had never sat down with a scruffy copy of the Farmers Journal! Never know when you might need a two axel trailer.

Mike.