Puyol

wheres me jumpa

Been meaning to bring this up here for sometime and saw his name mentioned in another thread. Puyol of Barca fame.... your thoughts?

I think he is the most over rated defender I have ever seen. The man is a donkey imo. Ive seen articulated trucks turn quicker. I really cant see what the fuss is about. Most games I have seen him play his defending consists of holding and pulling down. Which is fine in small doses but when its your entire game it would suggest alarming weaknesses.

Classic example, Champions League Final vs Henry, was lucky enough to be there, seeing him live confirmed all of the above for me.

Ahh, glad i got that off my chest. Anyone else feel the same?

Seaneh

I think he is a joke TBH, too short, too slow, doesn't read the game well at all, can't tackle, he's just a short nasty "aggressive" (I'd say dirty) player.

Rikand

i quite like him tbh, i think hes solid, specially with marquez in beside him. Though Marquez is excellent and could probably make anyone beside him look good

el rabitos

wheres me jumpa wrote:

Been meaning to bring this up here for sometime and saw his name mentioned in another thread. Puyol of Barca fame.... your thoughts?

I think he is the most over rated defender I have ever seen. The man is a donkey imo. Ive seen articulated trucks turn quicker. I really cant see what the fuss is about. Most games I have seen him play his defending consists of holding and pulling down. Which is fine in small doses but when its your entire game it would suggest alarming weaknesses.

Classic example, Champions League Final vs Henry, was lucky enough to be there, seeing him live confirmed all of the above for me.

Ahh, glad i got that off my chest. Anyone else feel the same?

no.

2 league titles in a row and a champions league would suggest barca are tight at the back, and puyol is the centre of that defence ahead of la ligas equivelent of david james in goal.

he's consistant, agressive, good in the air and good going forward, also a decent passer of the ball.

any top team would snap him up, but he'll be a maldini style 1 club for life player

wheres me jumpa

Rickylovesuall wrote:

i quite like him tbh, i think hes solid, specially with marquez in beside him. Though Marquez is excellent and could probably make anyone beside him look good

Im thinking Matty Holland, Roy Keane

Kingp35

I think he is a decent player, nothing more nothing less and I would certainly agree with you that he is overrated. He makes the odd mistake here and there and does foul an awful lot compared to other center backs. Marquez is the better player but I wouldnt say that Puyol is a bad player, just overrated.

Rikand

wheres me jumpa wrote:

Im thinking Matty Holland, Roy Keane

Matty holland was class! but not anymore...hmm, maybe you're right!

Attractive Nun

He's a good player IMO, people often put him in world XIs (including myself somewhere in the past probably), but he certainly isn't of that quality. He's a good leader and a dogged player, and certainly a good addition to any team, although Marquez is the better player at Barcelona. All in all, overrated generally, but probably underrated by the OP.

Nalz

no.
2 league titles in a row and a champions league would suggest barca are tight at the back.

Henning Berg also ahieved this, is he a great player? I think Puyol is an okay player, as is Marquez. Nothing over spectacular about them. Osario was a far better back for Mexico in this WC then Marquez, but having said all that collectively Puyol and Marquez have pulled it off and deserve credit even though they have the most creative midfield in front of them.

Easy on Matty Holland - he had his moments, very few.......but he had his moments!!

el rabitos

Trilla wrote:

Henning Berg also ahieved this, is he a great player? I think Puyol is an okay player, as is Marquez. Nothing over spectacular about them. Osario was a far better back for Mexico in this WC then Marquez, but having said all that collectively Puyol and Marquez have pulled it off and deserve credit even though they have the most creative midfield in front of them.

Easy on Matty Holland - he had his moments, very few.......but he had his moments!!

did i mention in my post that puyol was a great player?

Nalz

el rabitos wrote:

he's consistant, agressive, good in the air and good going forward, also a decent passer of the ball.

Eh... => great player? Whats missing, oh yeah poor hair style

el rabitos wrote:

any top team would snap him up, but he'll be a maldini style 1 club for life player

Eh....any of the top teams would take less then great players, oh I see Puyol could be an average squad player at every great club...warm the bench, carry the lucozade bottles etc.

el rabitos

Trilla wrote:

Eh... => great player? Whats missing, oh yeah poor hair style



Eh....any of the top teams would take less then great players, oh I see Puyol could be an average squad player at every great club...warm the bench, carry the lucozade bottles etc.

thuram is old, but any top team would take him....u follow? having a top experianced player in any squad would be a plus.

i said ......."he's consistant, agressive, good in the air and good going forward, also a decent passer of the ball."

if u dont see the difference between good and great, talk to someone thats seen rio ferdinand play football and hasnt seen franco baresi

the word "great" and "legend" is thrown around alot in some threads

Nalz

el rabitos wrote:

.....the word "great" and "legend" is thrown around alot in some threads

so do you agree with the WMjumpa that he is over rated?

el rabitos

Trilla wrote:

so do you agree with the WMjumpa that he is over rated?

no, i think he's well thought of and perhaps hyped up alot in barca because he's catalan, played only for barca and has been successful.

comparable to raul at real madrid.

both are hyped up in their own city and within their own club, but it doesnt make them any less fine players.

neither are the best in the world, but the fact that they are both held in high regard doesnt take away from their contributions on the pitch

wheres me jumpa

el rabitos wrote:

if u dont see the difference between good and great, talk to someone thats seen rio ferdinand play football and hasnt seen franco baresi

Compare Puyol to Baresi and its a similar conclusion imo.

el rabitos

wheres me jumpa wrote:

Compare Puyol to Baresi and its a similar conclusion imo.

ah come on man, not at all. anyone who knows anything at all about football and has seen baresi play would all agree he was the finest central defender around.

people dont call maldini the best defender in the world just because he's been at milan all his life and is well loved in the city, u just know from seeing him play that he is, and its the same with baresi.

nobody *really* thinks puyol is of the same calibre of baresi or someone like that.

he's a good player who does everything a good central defender needs to do quite well, and on a good day he excells, but he doesnt excell at it in the same way baresi or even cannavaro

but in saying he's "does everything a good central defender needs to do quite well" it doesnt sound like much of a compliment, but how many times do u see ferdinand try to be too flamboyant on the ball, or hyypia try to track back or campell try to um....move?

having a central defender that does everything well isnt appreciated much untill something basic goes wrong

Nalz

el rabitos wrote:

comparable to raul at real madrid.

I think we're goin to have to agree to disagree on this as Raúl in my opinion was far more consistant and reliable throughout his career, and would have been at some stage in his career one of the top 3 strikers in the World. I admit he is a shadow of the player he was, but Puyol never reached his heights and is over rated or "hyped" as you put it largely. Raul deserved his praise 90% of the time, the same cannot be said for Puyol (again in my opinion). I gonna have to agree to certain point with WMJumpa, he can come across as a donkey more than often (yes even more than Rio Ferdinand) and he can never be judged in the same category as Raúl. Regardless of Raúls current form.

wheres me jumpa

el rabitos wrote:

he's a good player who does everything a good central defender needs to do quite well, and on a good day he excells, but he doesnt excell at it in the same way baresi or even cannavaro

but in saying he's "does everything a good central defender needs to do quite well" it doesnt sound like much of a compliment, but how many times do u see ferdinand try to be too flamboyant on the ball, or hyypia try to track back or campell try to um....move?

having a central defender that does everything well isnt appreciated much untill something basic goes wrong

My biggest grip about Puyol is the how easily he commits himself. Furthermore how easily he commits himself way out the pitch. The amount of tackle he jumps in on the halfway line is crazy.

For example..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nVJYDoejl_w&search=puyol%20henry

Admittedly he does well to get back but he has his fellow defender to thank for holding Henry up. When these tackles come off they look great, just like Ferdinand when he ponces around with the ball at his feet, looks great when it works.

Found another...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WXsvYoOiV44&search=puyol%20crespo

Nalz

Puyol isn't even in the same league as Jamie Carragher, who in my opinion isnt world class, isnt exceptional or any means fantastic, but is a very good defender and reliable most of the time. He is greatly overrated, clumbsy and to a maybe extreme point makes Rio look like the player he was promised and had the potential to be...world class

PHB

Puyol's record speaks for itself imo.

Captain of Barca, currently the undoubted best club team in the world.
He plays in a team which attacks non-stop, and he defends as well as any defender I've seen defend in La Liga.

Over-rated? Not in the slightest, one of the best defenders in the world.

Nalz

one of the best defenders in the world

No chance. Way off the mark. a good player as far as I'll go, not even a great player. Too be classified as one of the best defenders in the world you shouldnt be able to name 10 defenders better than him, which can easily be done. Off the top of my head

Terry
Cannavaro
Maldini
Thuram
Gallas
Heinze
Carvalho
Nesta
Zambrotta
Cole

I even put the following ahead of him

Carragher
Touré
Sendoros

I have 10 times more confidence in those 3 then Puyol

PHB

Is there any good defender in La Liga then?

kinaldo

PHB wrote:

Is there any good defender in La Liga then?

Sergio Ramos - classy hardman, strong, athletic and super fit, scores frequently from set pieces (often followed by incredible acrobatic celebrations), and still only 20 learning from the best, Mr. Woodgate and now Cannovaro.

Rollo Tamasi

kinaldo wrote:

Sergio Ramos - classy hardman, strong, athletic and super fit, scores frequently from set pieces (often followed by incredible acrobatic celebrations), and still only 20 learning from the best, Mr. Woodgate and now Cannovaro.

is he giving him guidance in relation to geting a first aid certificate?
There's not much you can learn from a guy wrapped in bandages the majority of the time.

kinaldo

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

is he giving him guidance in relation to geting a first aid certificate?
There's not much you can learn from a guy wrapped in bandages the majority of the time.

Well they had the look of a great partnership when Woodgate was fit last year.

zAbbo

Some people here only see La Liga players a few times a season, and that shows in most of the references to CL matches.

Would Barce have won back to back La Liga's without him ?

Marquez is also top class.

Puyol is the Carragher of the Barce team, and I wouldn't underestimate the importance he has within both the Barce and national Squad.

Nalz

PHB wrote:

Is there any good defender in La Liga then?

Ayala, now you cant compare Puyol to Ayala. Marquez is slightly better than Puyol, but again over rated also. I tell you any manager would take Carragher over Puyol. Id even go as far to say that Wes Brown would be a more natural and consistent defender, but I'm gonna get slaughtered for sayin that....Ramos isnt there yet, but will be a great CB. A fit J Woodgate would make the England team ahead of Rio. was very impressed with Ricardo Osorio of Mexico in the WC also, who'll be in La Liga shortly.

So heres another few for ya

Ayala
Marquez
Osorio
Brown
Ferdinand
Woodgate (fit)
L King
Ramos

Again, I state that Puyol is an okay defender, slightly above average but the praise he gets isn't deserved. he is hyped up greatly. A little bit like Rio Ferdinand at United, though technically I'd prefer Rio.

PHB

I tell you any manager would take Carragher over Puyol.

Theres this young manager, called Frank, he seems to rate Puyol, but what does he know

Nalz

wheres me jumpa wrote:

I think he is the most over rated defender I have ever seen. The man is a donkey imo.

Yes - he is over rated.

one of the best defenders in the world.

No, he is not one of the best.

Theres this young manager, called Frank, he seems to rate Puyol, but what does he know

yeah, but he could name 10-15 others he'd prefer.

Again as my sig states, if ya disagree with me...thats what makes life interesting.

gosplan

Sorry but there's some seriously weird points being made here.

Firstly Trilla, you can't really compare players like Cole and Zambrotta to Puyol so having a list containing different players really means very little. Anyway 10 better players? What if the standards are just high, now that Zidane's retired does whoever was 11th on the midfield list become 'one of the best' whereas before they were just decent???

Secondly, COME ON!!! Are you seriously saying that you think Traore is better then Puyol. Think now, are you making this point just to make it....or would you rather your team actually had Traore then Puyol. I gather you're a liverpool supporter who's probably gald of Traore's departure and you're putting him in your top 13 or whatever???
I don't mean to be abusive or anything but if thats really your opinion then there's very little point is continiung any debate about this..

All you can look at is what he's done and how he plays. Firstly he was voted best right back in europe in 2002. Last two years he's captained the league winning side. First time they had least goals conceeded, second time they were fourth in that table. Remember that when he plays at Barca, 4 or 5 players don't do any defending whatsoever so he has a tougher job then someone like Terry or Gallas who usually have 8 other Chelsea players between them and ball.

Also posting videos of Henry going around him and then him going through Del Horno doesn't exactly mean much. Does a showing of Liverpool in the champions leauge remove Nesta, Stam and Maldini from being useful? I'm sure I can find suitable video evidence to get rid of Traore from this discussion.

As regards the donkey comment I'd advise you to watch spains last goal against the Ukraine. Puyol wins the ball, does a dragback to round a player, gives it, continues running and when it comes back sets up Torres with his first touch. There wasn't a better piece of attacking by ANY central defender at the world cup.

I'm not saying he's the best defender ever but he's one of the good ones around now, this plus the fact that he's Catalan is why he's at Barca just like Terry and Chelsea.
You can say that he's overrated, there's an argument there but listing all those players, I mean. Are we to take it that EVERY english defender.

Cole, Terry, Ferdinand, Brown, Woodgate, Carragher etc. Basically anyone English playing in a half decent side is better then the guy who's generally held to be Spains best defender???

zAbbo

Pablo Ibanez
Juanito
Luis Perea
Gonzalo Rodriguez

All very good defenders, especially Rodriquez, incredible talent.

How many of you guys watch La Liga regularly ?

Seaneh

gosplan wrote:

Secondly, COME ON!!! Are you seriously saying that you think Traore is better then Puyol. Think now, are you making this point just to make it....or would you rather your team actually had Traore then Puyol. I gather you're a liverpool supporter who's probably gald of Traore's departure and you're putting him in your top 13 or whatever???
I don't mean to be abusive or anything but if thats really your opinion then there's very little point is continiung any debate about this..

Pretty Sure he ment Kolo Toure to be honest.

And I'd agree with him, and anyone else who has said he is over rated.

you said he was voted europes best RB in 2002... Cosomin Contra was voted best right full in europe two of the tree years before that, and IMHO he was always a waster, great attacking but very suspect at teh back.

As an RB poyul is pretty good, has flaws but he is solid, but as a CB he is way below world class! His reading of the game is a joke, he has no idea how to mark and he commits himself far too often, world class CB's only every go to ground at the last minute, any kid playing in the park know you stand your man up, it's the easist way to get the ball back, poyul just dives in, headless chicken style and gives away stupid free kicks or else ends up on his arse 3 yards away as a striker skips past him and Marquez has t mop up as uausl.

astrofool

I wouldn't say Terry at Chelsea is the same as puyol/barca carra/pool neville/manu. If you remember back to the days pre Abramovich, Terry was about to leave over a wages dispute, which Abramovich of course gave in to.

el rabitos

zabbo wrote:

Pablo Ibanez
Juanito
Luis Perea
Gonzalo Rodriguez

All very good defenders, especially Rodriquez, incredible talent.

How many of you guys watch La Liga regularly ?

come on now, juanito isnt the best at all really, pablo is probably the unsung hero of la liga, he's a rock solid defender

gosplan

sorry about the misread, was wondering how anyone could claim traore was better then puyol??

As I said, I wouldn't say he's the worlds finest but he remains a very good defender. Generally the difference between good and great players is a matter of opinion but I'd say he's behind the Cannavaro/Terry/Nesta claim to worlds greatest.

Somewhere in with the Ayala, Gallas, Ferdinand, Toure crowd.

There is weight in the argument that he's overrated, he is a larger then life Catalan at the larger then life Catalan club but he's far from a poor player.

No club, not even Barca, can win back to back titles and be thereabouts for the meanest defence with a 'donkey' leading the team and playing every match.

Nalz

Luis Perea – very good back, and a decent forward in Championship Manager!

Okay, I even said that donkey mark was a bit harsh, and I take your point about high standards. But to be one of the best you have to be better than some very good defenders. From the lists I gave it would be hard IMO to pick out 5 that he is better than. You could argue Materazzi, Metzelder, Sorin, Brown and Senderos, but after that there would be a struggle. This argument is going nowhere as people seem to have different opinions, but I’d like to ask people how many and who out of this list is Puyol a better defender than? He played at both RB and CB so I think its fair enough to throw in full backs.

Terry
Cannavaro
Maldini
Thuram
Gallas
Heinze
Carvalho
Nesta
Zambrotta
Cole
Carragher
Kolo Touré
Senderos
Ayala
Marquez
Grosso
Osorio
Brown
Ferdinand
Woodgate (fit)
L King
Ramos
Metzelder
Sorin
Materazzi (had a decent WC)

el rabitos

Trilla wrote:

Terry
Cannavaro
Maldini
Thuram
Gallas
Heinze - left back
Carvalho
Nesta
Zambrotta - left back
Cole - left back
Carragher
Kolo Touré
Senderos - not good enough
Ayala
Marquez
Grosso he's a left back
Osorio
Brown
Ferdinand - unreliable, thinks he's a midfielder
Woodgate (fit) - no. just no
L King - has played 0 games in champions league, proved nothing
Ramos - makes school boy mistakes so often its unreal, sevilla want him back
Metzelder
Sorin - the definition of over rated, lazy
Materazzi (had a decent WC) - piss poor player

reliability is underrated, puyol = reliable

gosplan

A lot of them would be there or thereabouts.

You have to look at when and against whom some have proven themselves though?

Take Carragher for example, you have to look at how he's proven himself against the best teams. He had one great champions leauge year(in which they still conceeded three in the final) but I've seen him viciously exposed for lack of pace at times. I'm not arguing that he's not good but the evidence you're taking seems to be Liverpool in the premiership where as Puyol is being held up for the matches against Chelsea and Arsenal in the few times a year people see more of him. He does the Jamie Carragher effective thing week in week out for Barca but it goes largely unnoticed.

gosplan

In addition there's no way that anyone who followed any league other then the premiership would have Brown, King, Woodgate or Senderos on that list.

Rikand

Trilla wrote:

This argument is going nowhere as people seem to have different opinions, but I’d like to ask people how many and who out of this list is Puyol a better defender than? He played at both RB and CB so I think its fair enough to throw in full backs.

el rabitos wrote:

Originally Posted by Trilla
Terry
Cannavaro
Maldini
Thuram
Gallas
Heinze - left back
Carvalho
Nesta
Zambrotta - left back
Cole - left back
Carragher
Kolo Touré
Senderos - not good enough
Ayala
Marquez
Grosso he's a left back
Osorio
Brown
Ferdinand - unreliable, thinks he's a midfielder
Woodgate (fit) - no. just no
L King - has played 0 games in champions league, proved nothing
Ramos - makes school boy mistakes so often its unreal, sevilla want him back
Metzelder
Sorin - the definition of over rated, lazy
Materazzi (had a decent WC) - piss poor player

Did you actually read the last line of his post before the list, before going through and pointing out all the left backs.

Also, Sorin is class!

el rabitos

Rickylovesuall wrote:

Did you actually read the last line of his post before the list, before going through and pointing out all the left backs.

Also, Sorin is class!

full backs that play on the right can be included, wheres the logic in comparing a left back to someone that plays as a central defender and very occasionally on the right?

and no, sorin is not class. he's lazy.

when he decides he's up for a game he's great, but half of the time he doesnt, it just so happens that the half he does show up are in the champions league.

theres a reason him and riquelme play for villareal and not barca or real.

notice how riquelme was so easily let go by barca?

Nalz

el rabitos wrote:

full backs that play on the right can be included, wheres the logic in comparing a left back to someone that plays as a central defender and very occasionally on the right?

The debate was "one of the best defenders in the world" posted by PHB. Both RB and LB are classified as defenders, that was my reason for placing left backs there. Before Heinze came to United he played at CB, as he does most of the time for his country at the highest level. There is no need to go that deep into it and pick at the smallest of things. If someone suggests that a player is one of the best defenders in the world, then it is fair to say that CB,LB,RB wingbacks sweepers whatever in the backline can be mentioned. When there is awards for best defender in certain competitions, do they split them up into what side they play on?

el rabitos wrote:

and no, sorin is not class. he's lazy.

no I agree that he's not class, but he is a v good player.

el rabitos wrote:

puyol = reliable

I dont think he is that reliable. Judging by this thread a few agree/disagree so his reliability factor isn't the highest (no smart comments on that please!!)

el rabitos wrote:

Senderos - not good enough......
Ferdinand - unreliable, thinks he's a midfielder
Woodgate (fit) - no. just no
L King - has played 0 games in champions league, proved nothing
Ramos - makes school boy mistakes so often its unreal, sevilla want him back
Metzelder
Sorin - the definition of over rated, lazy
Materazzi (had a decent WC) - piss poor player

All this can be debatable, Rio has his bad days gotta say. Senderos is slow but he has great potential, Woodgate fit is class. Bit unfair about King and Materazzi. not a fan of Ramos imo myself but a par with Puyol.

vorbis

I rate Puyol as a defender, he's solid and dependable most of the time, pretty much what you want from a defender.

Don't see why everyone thinks Ferdinand is a bad defender. Even as an Arsenal fan, I can see that he's quite decent. Oddly it was Terry who played below standard for England yet criticism of him hasn't been too vocal.

Nalz

vorbis wrote:

it was Terry who played below standard for England yet criticism of him hasn't been too vocal.

I agree, but Ferdinand is a good bit behind Terry in terms of consistancy

PHB

I agree, but Ferdinand is a good bit behind Terry in terms of consistancy

Not for England, just for clubs. For England, Terry has never been the player Rio has been, who has never been the player Campbell has been.

Nalz

PHB wrote:

Not for England, just for clubs. For England, Terry has never been the player Rio has been, who has never been the player Campbell has been.

yeah thats right. strange eh? Rio was brilliant in 2002 WC. absolutely brilliant.