Barr Tribunal Report

Villain

The scene commander was responsible the death of John Carthy!

Two Gardai assaulted John Carthy two years before the siege!

This death should not have happened!

Those are just selected extracts from the report and Minister for Justice Michael McDowell said that the Carthy family was entitled to a profound expression of regret from the State.

A fairly damning report by the sounds of it.

AngryLoner

A dude goes nuts with a gun and get's blown away by a copper with an itchy trigger finger. Big deal. Why did it take 18 million to get to the bottom of this? Are these barristers et al not openly taking the piss, at this stage?:mad:

Villain

Well I agree that 18 million is far too much but it would have been 10 if Justice Barr hadn't awarded all costs. I think in fairness the tribunal needed to be completed, Justice Barr has made a large number of excellent recomendations that could help save lives in the future.

You have to remember John Carthy was mentally ill and had been assaulted by Gardai previously.

AngryLoner

irish1 wrote:

You have to remember John Carthy was mentally ill and had been assaulted by Gardai previously.

I have to give you that one, I suppose. But still; can we not remove all these bloodSuckers from the equation? There must be a cheaper way to reveal truth. After all, a courtroom is not a place of truth, more a glorified school debating competition.

Of course, I have no answers; I'm just here to give out about stuff. :rolleyes:

sceptre

Are those actual extracts? I guess what I'm really asking is: has Justice Barr gone crazy with the exclamation marks or are those quotes from other people that have been included in the report?

Villain

sceptre wrote:

Are those actual extracts? I guess what I'm really asking is: has Justice Barr gone crazy with the exclamation marks or are those quotes from other people that have been included in the report?

Those are quotes from people who have read the report, though I think he may actually have stated those exact words without the exclamation marks.

Villain

AngryLoner wrote:

I have to give you that one, I suppose. But still; can we not remove all these bloodSuckers from the equation? There must be a cheaper way to reveal truth. After all, a courtroom is not a place of truth, more a glorified school debating competition.

Of course, I have no answers; I'm just here to give out about stuff. :rolleyes:

Have a read of this:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054961203

It will really make you sick, the government are afraid to P**s off the legal profession by the looks of things.

damien

Is this report online somewhere?

Villain

I don't believe so, it's a couple of hundred pages long, perhaps it become available in the future.

damien

I know you can get it from the Govt Publications Office but a digital copy would be much better.

lostexpectation

more of this 'spilt second decision' nonsense from McDowell and the Gardai, particularily in this case.

constitutionus

irish1 wrote:

Have a read of this:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054961203

It will really make you sick, the government are afraid to P**s off the legal profession by the looks of things.

theyre less afraid of and more that they ARE the legal profession, half the dail are in the public sector and the rest are vintners. christ macdowels day job is a barrister. you think he's gonna do anything to affect his or his mates wages? the only way you'll see any changes in those protected sectors is to fill the dail with tesco cashiers and cleaners, otherwise jesus will be having snowball fights with lucifer before it happens

Sparks

damien.m wrote:

Is this report online somewhere?

No, and it won't be put online either according to the barr tribunal people.
It's €5 for the printed version or the CDROM version from the publications office in Molesworth street. It wasn't exactly flying off the shelves at lunchtime today. And at 744 pages, it's a long read.

mike65

I've been trawling through the reporting of this all day (or it feels like it) and its fair to say the whole operation was a screw up from start to finish. Good to see Justice Barr be so clear in his critique. The cop who was in immediate control of the er intelligence has taken early retirement, fancy that.

Mike.

damien

Sparks wrote:

It's €5 for the printed version or the CDROM version from the publications office in Molesworth street. It wasn't exactly flying off the shelves at lunchtime today. And at 744 pages, it's a long read.

Nice one. Once there's a digital copy I'll be happy.

bk

If someone gets a digital copy would they be so good as to put it up on the web for the rest of us, thanks.

arbeitsscheuer

mike65 wrote:

Good to see Justice Barr be so clear in his critique.

Concur, reckon he got pretty much everything spot on tbh.

The only copper who comes out of this with any credit at all is Detective Inspector Michael Jackson, the negotiator on the day of the shooting. Barr completely exonerates him, and indeed commended him for performing to the best of his ability while not provided with adequate information about John Carthy by his superiors. Poor bast*rd never had a chance of talking John out of the house while essentially blindfolded by incompetent and foolhardy commanders.

Villain

I have to say the response of the GRA and the Garda Commisioner were not very helpful at all, they shouldn't have tried to defend anyone before they had a chance to read the full report.

The GRA's statement was totally inappropiate imo, stating officers had to make a quick second decision, this seige lasted 23 hours. The Barr report doesn't lay the blaim for this killing at those you fired the fatal bullets but at those you managed the situation, i.e. they never planned for an uncontrolled exit and they was serious failings which led up to Mr Carthy leaving the house.

The response by the GRA and Noel Conroy imo will only serve to damage the already bad reputation of the Gardai.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

I have to say the response of the GRA and the Garda Commisioner were not very helpful at all, they shouldn't have tried to defend anyone before they had a chance to read the full report.

You're commenting,have you read the full report?

The GRA's statement was totally inappropiate imo, stating officers had to make a quick second decision, this seige lasted 23 hours. The Barr report doesn't lay the blaim for this killing at those you fired the fatal bullets but at those you managed the situation, i.e. they never planned for an uncontrolled exit and they was serious failings which led up to Mr Carthy leaving the house.

Iirc one or two of the main players have already taken early retirement.We know they made a super cóck up.But the thing is head Gardaí,like all police forces tend to damage limit with their comments so as to put things in perspective.Thats often misinterpreted as much as its often the wrong thing to do.
A good ombudsmans office like whats in NI cant come quick enough so episodes like this one are dealt with more effeciently and not with a 6 year delay.

The response by the GRA and Noel Conroy imo will only serve to damage the already bad reputation of the Gardai.

The Gardaí dont have a bad reputation.They are an honest hard working decent police force that sometimes make mistakes.
What purpose does it serve to throw out a comment like the Gardaí have a bad reputation? Remember we're not in Ardoyne,most of the population in Ireland turn to the Gardaí when theres a problem and thrust them to sort it in my experience anyway.
So unless you have widespread evidence of disillusionment with the Gardaí,your comment is disingenous to be honest.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

You're commenting,have you read the full report?

Nope but I'm discussing the issue on an internet forum not releasing a public statement on behalf of the Gardai.

Rock Climber wrote:

Iirc one or two of the main players have already taken early retirement.We know they made a super cóck up.But the thing is head Gardaí,like all police forces tend to damage limit with their comments so as to put things in perspective.Thats often misinterpreted as much as its often the wrong thing to do.
A good ombudsmans office like whats in NI cant come quick enough so episodes like this one are dealt with more effeciently and not with a 6 year delay.

The comments of the GRA and Noel Conroy were very defensive and only add more hurt to the family of John Carthy imo, Minister McDowell at least had the courage to apologise to the Carthy family of behalf of the state, why couldn't Noel Conroy and PJ Stone do the same

Rock Climber wrote:

The Gardaí dont have a bad reputation.They are an honest hard working decent police force that sometimes make mistakes.
What purpose does it serve to throw out a comment like the Gardaí have a bad reputation? Remember we're not in Ardoyne,most of the population in Ireland turn to the Gardaí when theres a problem and thrust them to sort it in my experience anyway.
So unless you have widespread evidence of disillusionment with the Gardaí,your comment is disingenous to be honest.

TBH I think they do have a bad reputation, the events in Donegal along with this incident have seriously damaged the reputation of the Gardai, I believe members of the Gardai have accepted moral is low in the force.

I also believe their targeting of motorists on motorways and other roads with crazy speed limits has damaged their reputation but perhaps thats for another thread.

My point here is the GRA and Noel Conroy should have taken the same line as McDowell and apologise for the errors that were made by senior Gardai that led to the death of John Carthy not try and defend them.

The majority of Gardai carry out their tasks in a professional and honest manner but unfortunately there is a minority that are either corrupt or just don't have the ability which their rank requires.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

Nope but I'm discussing the issue on an internet forum not releasing a public statement on behalf of the Gardai.

So have you read it?
You are giving a view,the same as the Gardaí are.

The comments of the GRA and Noel Conroy were very defensive and only add more hurt to the family of John Carthy imo, Minister McDowell at least had the courage to apologise to the Carthy family of behalf of the state, why couldn't Noel Conroy and PJ Stone do the same

I dont know

TBH I think they do have a bad reputation, the events in Donegal along with this incident have seriously damaged the reputation of the Gardai, I believe members of the Gardai have accepted moral is low in the force.

Thats codswollop,present loads of facts please,rather than 2 stand alone incidents from years ago instead of trying to soapbox your poor view of the Gardaí as a whole with literally nothing to back it up.

I also believe their targeting of motorists on motorways and other roads with crazy speed limits has damaged their reputation but perhaps thats for another thread.

More of it,are you here to discuss something or just rant?

The majority of Gardai carry out their tasks in a professional and honest manner but unfortunately there is a minority that are either corrupt or just don't have the ability which their rank requires.

Thats more like it.
A very tiny minority unless you have evidence to show otherwise ?
Painting the whole force as corrupt,lacking in the thrust of the people and having a bad reputation like you were doing a minute ago based on 2 incidents from years ago doesnt wash.

It does look like you have some beef with them and you are trying to use this as mud to throw.
Well if you had 22 incidents like these,you might have a point to underscore your ridiculous claim that they have a bad reputation but using only these two to try tarnish the whole force begs the question-why would you like to sow the seed that the Gardaí have a bad reputation?
Because thats all it is,your seed[argument] that hasnt anything to grow because its based on 2 minority incidents.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

So have you read it?
You are giving a view,the same as the Gardaí are.

As I said no I haven't read all 744 pages, however comparing my discussion on this forum to an official press release by the GRA and public comments made by the Garda commisioner is crazy imo.

Rock Climber wrote:

I dont know

Do you think they should have apologised as McDowell did?

Rock Climber wrote:

Thats codswollop,present loads of facts please,rather than 2 stand alone incidents from years ago instead of trying to soapbox your poor view of the Gardaí as a whole with literally nothing to back it up.
More of it,are you here to discuss something or just rant?

I'm not ranting I'm giving my opinion which you can ignore if you please, the fact is that we had two tribunals setup to investigate activitys of certain of Gardai, these tribunals are estimated to cost the tax payers €38 million!.

My opinion is that the Garda force have a bad reputation, two tribunals have shown that a certain minority of members of the Gardai are either corrupt or incapable. The may day riots are an example of police force been used excessively imo, Gardai paid out over €1 million in 2002 in out of court settlements.

Rock Climber wrote:

Thats more like it.
A very tiny minority unless you have evidence to show otherwise ?
Painting the whole force as corrupt,lacking in the thrust of the people and having a bad reputation like you were doing a minute ago based on 2 incidents from years ago doesnt wash.

It does look like you have some beef with them and you are trying to use this as mud to throw.
Well if you had 22 incidents like these,you might have a point to underscore your ridiculous claim that they have a bad reputation but using only these two to try tarnish the whole force begs the question-why would you like to sow the seed that the Gardaí have a bad reputation?
Because thats all it is,your seed[argument] that hasnt anything to grow because its based on 2 minority incidents.

These two incidents were very serious ones which resulted in the death of one man and the unlawful arrest and detention of others.

It doesn't take a majority of a group to give that them a bad reputation, and I have no "beef" with the Gardai, I have never been arrested fined or questioned by the Gardai in my life, I don't even have a single penalty point, in fact I have relations and friends that are members of the gardai. My own personal experience with the Gardai was quite good until I was called up for Jury duty last year and was a member of a jury that heard a case for 3 days and during that case approximately 11 gardai took the stand and only one garda semmed to tell the truth.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

As I said no I haven't read all 744 pages, however comparing my discussion on this forum to an official press release by the GRA and public comments made by the Garda commisioner is crazy imo.

You gave out about him not reading it and commenting yet you're prepared to do the same.I think its safe to say that his opinion should be a more informed one than yours.

Do you think they should have apologised as McDowell did?

I think the officers in charge on the day should.

I'm not ranting I'm giving my opinion which you can ignore if you please, the fact is that we had two tribunals setup to investigate activitys of certain of Gardai, these tribunals are estimated to cost the tax payers €38 million!.

My opinion is that the Garda force have a bad reputation, two tribunals have shown that a certain minority of members of the Gardai are either corrupt or incapable. The may day riots are an example of police force been used excessively imo, Gardai paid out over €1 million in 2002 in out of court settlements.

you've singularally failed to prove this bad reputation you are on about.The Gardaí are thousands of hard working men and women.These two incidents whilst serious are a tiny dot on the radar of their entire operation.

These two incidents were very serious ones which resulted in the death of one man and the unlawful arrest and detention of others.

I see so that doctor in the UK that killed his eldery patients...The medical profession has a bad reputation now has it?
Your logic is more akin to wanting to think theres a bad repution there rather than having a shred of ground under it in saying they have a bad reputation.

It doesn't take a majority of a group to give that them a bad reputation, and I have no "beef" with the Gardai, I have never been arrested fined or questioned by the Gardai in my life, I don't even have a single penalty point, in fact I have relations and friends that are members of the gardai. My own personal experience with the Gardai was quite good until I was called up for Jury duty last year and was a member of a jury that heard a case for 3 days and during that case approximately 11 gardai took the stand and only one garda semmed to tell the truth.

Is that an attempt to give us an incident number three?I was looking for 22 instead of the two you mentioned and I think you should be presenting cases in the public domain rather than hearsay.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

You gave out about him not reading it and commenting yet you're prepared to do the same.I think its safe to say that his opinion should be a more informed one than yours.

I gave out about he releasing a statement on behalf of the GRA to the Press without reading it, are you seriously trying to compare that to me posting here?? and I certainly would hope he is more informed on this than me, thats what he's paid to do.

Rock Climber wrote:

I think the officers in charge on the day should.

Could the Garda commisoner or the Press officer of the GRA not do so on behalf of the force as McDowell did on behalf of the state?

Rock Climber wrote:

you've singularally failed to prove this bad reputation you are on about.The Gardaí are thousands of hard working men and women.These two incidents whilst serious are a tiny dot on the radar of their entire operation.

I don't need to prove my opinion I only need to explain it as I believe I have done and I don't agree that I have only mentioned 2 incidents, the Morris tribunal is dealing with many incidents and many members of the Gardai.

Rock Climber wrote:

I see so that doctor in the UK that killed his eldery patients...The medical profession has a bad reputation now has it?
Your logic is more akin to wanting to think theres a bad repution there rather than having a shred of ground under it in saying they have a bad reputation.
Is that an attempt to give us an incident number three?I was looking for 22 instead of the two you mentioned and I think you should be presenting cases in the public domain rather than hearsay.

Your comparing one doctors actions to that of many senior and junior members of our national Police force?? I would think my logic is better than that?

damien

bk wrote:

If someone gets a digital copy would they be so good as to put it up on the web for the rest of us, thanks.

Update: Govt publications office only have this in print format and said there will be a copy available on cd rom but they don't know when as it is still "in the pipeline". I may have to resort to getting the print version and scanning in each page. Bless OCR software.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

I gave out about he releasing a statement on behalf of the GRA to the Press without reading it, are you seriously trying to compare that to me posting here?? and I certainly would hope he is more informed on this than me, thats what he's paid to do.

Well you are both doing the same thing except the Garda in question would be more informed than you to be doing it.

Could the Garda commisoner or the Press officer of the GRA not do so on behalf of the force as McDowell did on behalf of the state?

Well ultimately it's the state that is responsible,it's the state that has to pick up the tab and its the state thats responsible for learning from this.As for the Garda commissioner,if he was commissioner at the time,yes I think he should be apologising.Other than that I think those directly involved should be apologising and of course the state.

I don't need to prove my opinion I only need to explain it as I believe I have done

You've singularally failed to tarnish the whole of the Gardaí by picking two incidents and presenting hearsay as a third.
You have however proved your desire to tarnish the whole of the Garda force as having a bad reputation.

and I don't agree that I have only mentioned 2 incidents, the Morris tribunal is dealing with many incidents and many members of the Gardai.

How many members of the Gardaí?What percentage? You're again grasping at straws to save yourself from the quicksand under your accusation that the Gardaí have a bad reputation.

Your comparing one doctors actions to that of many senior and junior members of our national Police force?? I would think my logic is better than that?

Your logic is to take two situations and try to tarnish the whole of the Gardaí with a bad reputation out of it.
Thats not logical at all,never mind even being logic.

banaman

Rock Climber wrote:

A good ombudsmans office like whats in NI cant come quick enough so episodes like this one are dealt with more effeciently and not with a 6 year delay.

If you believe that then I think you're badly mistaken. Just contrast this with the killing of Mr Menendez. Where the whole affair was an exercise in incompetence, cover-up, lies and denial.
There has been, and will not be any public inquiry and certainly no censure of any sort. In fact the killers are still working in the Met's ARU.
The Brits don't do proper inquiries unless everyone concerned is safely out of the way.
How many Paras have been prosecuted as a result of the "bloody Sunday" inquiry?
If this inquiry means that the mistakes made are not repeated and the unfit officers are off the force then its well worth it.
As for barristers there has to be some way found to limit their prices but since the Laws are drafted by barristers(either as advisors to TDs or the Tds are barristers too) its about as likely to happen as turkeys voting for Xmas if you ask me.

Sparks

If you believe that then I think you're badly mistaken. Just contrast this with the killing of Mr Menendez.

...who was killed in London, not Northern Ireland.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

Well you are both doing the same thing except the Garda in question would be more informed than you to be doing it.

So you are seriously comparing my posts here to a public press release from the GRA?

Rock Climber wrote:

Well ultimately it's the state that is responsible,it's the state that has to pick up the tab and its the state thats responsible for learning from this.As for the Garda commissioner,if he was commissioner at the time,yes I think he should be apologising.Other than that I think those directly involved should be apologising and of course the state.

I don't believe MCDowell was minister at the time yet he apologised on behalf of the state, imo the comissioner should have apologised on behalf of the force, perhaps he will yet.

Rock Climber wrote:

You've singularally failed to tarnish the whole of the Gardaí by picking two incidents and presenting hearsay as a third.
You have however proved your desire to tarnish the whole of the Garda force as having a bad reputation. How many members of the Gardaí?What percentage? You're again grasping at straws to save yourself from the quicksand under your accusation that the Gardaí have a bad reputation.


Your logic is to take two situations and try to tarnish the whole of the Gardaí with a bad reputation out of it.
Thats not logical at all,never mind even being logic.

The morris tribunal has 10 modules:

1) Planting of explosives for the purpose of fraudulently finding same. 2) The Garda investigation into the death of the Late Richard Barron. 3) The use of informants in a Garda investigation. 4) The interrogation of suspects in Garda custody. 5) Extortion phone calls to the Peoples family. 6) The alleged planting of an agent in a licensed premises and false allegation of a ‘silver bullet’ threat against him and a Garda sergeant. 7) The alleged planting of a bomb on a transmission mast and the consequent arrest of three people. 8) The alleged planting of a gun and the consequent arrest of seven people. 9) Anonymous allegations of Garda corruption at the highest level. 10) Effectiveness of the Garda Complaints Board and the serious harassment of citizens.

Chief Superintendent Fitzpatrick, who was in charge of the Garda's National Traffic Bureau had to resign early due to the Morris tribunal finding him to be "gravely at fault" and another Superintendent Kevin Lennon was suspended from the force on a proportion of his pay after he was found to have orchestrated arms finds in a bid to further his career and had lied to the tribunal.

The Garda Commissioner also served notice on Detective Garda Noel McMahon of his intention to dismiss him from the force on the grounds that he is unfit to be retained.

I don't think anyone could argue that they only represent two situations.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

So you are seriously comparing my posts here to a public press release from the GRA?

Not really.Your post couldnt compare at all to a Garda press release in terms of how informed it could be in relation to this.
I was commenting on how it seems(according to you) its ok for you to comment on something you havent read but not ok for a Guard to do the same...
I dont mind you commenting without having read it at all actually,thats your perogative.

I don't believe MCDowell was minister at the time yet he apologised on behalf of the state, imo the comissioner should have apologised on behalf of the force, perhaps he will yet.

I wouldnt expect him to, but I'll take it as nice if he did.I wouldnt expect him to do what you want him to do seemingly and imply the whole force's reputation is bad by doing something nice for the family.

The morris tribunal has 10 modules:

1) Planting of explosives for the purpose of fraudulently finding same. 2) The Garda investigation into the death of the Late Richard Barron. 3) The use of informants in a Garda investigation. 4) The interrogation of suspects in Garda custody. 5) Extortion phone calls to the Peoples family. 6) The alleged planting of an agent in a licensed premises and false allegation of a ‘silver bullet’ threat against him and a Garda sergeant. 7) The alleged planting of a bomb on a transmission mast and the consequent arrest of three people. 8) The alleged planting of a gun and the consequent arrest of seven people. 9) Anonymous allegations of Garda corruption at the highest level. 10) Effectiveness of the Garda Complaints Board and the serious harassment of citizens.

All in relation to the same small group of Gardaí .
Have you anything to suggest that the vast majority of Gardaí are corrupt by virtue of what some were doing up there?
No? thought so.

Chief Superintendent Fitzpatrick, who was in charge of the Garda's National Traffic Bureau had to resign early due to the Morris tribunal finding him to be "gravely at fault" and another Superintendent Kevin Lennon was suspended from the force on a proportion of his pay after he was found to have orchestrated arms finds in a bid to further his career and had lied to the tribunal.

We all know what the morris tribunal is about.
Now back to my question that you are purposely avoiding it would seem, On what percentage of Gardaí are you basing your extrapulation that the force has a bad reputation? Tiny it would seem ergo you are talking rubbish when you say the force has a bad reputation.

The Garda Commissioner also served notice on Detective Garda Noel McMahon of his intention to dismiss him from the force on the grounds that he is unfit to be retained.
I don't think anyone could argue that they only represent two situations.

They are all linked and are even a tiny proportion of one divisional area of the Gardaí.
But carry on with what looks like a crusade with little to back it up other than,the tiniest of rotten apples.
Yeah continue with that because the more you do it,the plainer you are making how silly a suggestion it is.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

Not really.Your post couldnt compare at all to a Garda press release in terms of how informed it could be in relation to this.
I was commenting on how it seems(according to you) its ok for you to comment on something you havent read but not ok for a Guard to do the same...
I dont mind you commenting without having read it at all actually,thats your perogative.

Well I never said he shouldn't have commented, I think you need to read my posts again what I said was

they shouldn't have tried to defend anyone before they had a chance to read the full report.

Rock Climber wrote:

I wouldnt expect him to, but I'll take it as nice if he did.I wouldnt expect him to do what you want him to do seemingly and imply the whole force's reputation is bad by doing something nice for the family.

Actually I think it would improve the forces reputation if he apologised, that was point in my first post today.

Rock Climber wrote:

All in relation to the same small group of Gardaí .
Have you anything to suggest that the vast majority of Gardaí are corrupt by virtue of what some were doing up there?
No? thought so.

We all know what the morris tribunal is about.
Now back to my question that you are purposely avoiding it would seem, On what percentage of Gardaí are you basing your extrapulation that the force has a bad reputation? Tiny it would seem ergo you are talking rubbish when you say the force has a bad reputation.
They are all linked and are even a tiny proportion of one divisional area of the Gardaí.
But carry on with what looks like a crusade with little to back it up other than,the tiniest of rotten apples.
Yeah continue with that because the more you do it,the plainer you are making how silly a suggestion it is.

I was just listening to a member of Garda Ombudsman committee on the news who stated that the Barr report showed real issues with processes and prodecures within the Gardai. If the Garda organisation was properly managed none of these incidents should have taken place, there may only be a small % (btw I don't have total figures, I'm not avoiding your question) of people DIRECTLY involved with the incidents that Tribunals are looking at, but the processes and procedures in the Gardai failed prevent them. That is the organisation as a whole, these members of Gardai that was were named were members of a force who were trained by the force and acting on behalf of the force while been managed by the force. IMO you can't simply dismiss my opinion because only a small % of Gardai exploited the blatent problems within the organisation. Which leads me to be believe the force currently has a bad reputation, its an opinion not a crusade, infact one could argue that you are on a crusade to excuse the problems with the Gardai that allowed these awful incidents to occur.