Barr Tribunal Report

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

Well I never said he shouldn't have commented, I think you need to read my posts again what I said was" they shouldn't have tried to defend anyone before they had a chance to read the full report."

Which is different to you bashing the whole of the Gardaí with out reading the full report either,in what way exactly?

Actually I think it would improve the forces reputation if he apologised, that was point in my first post today.

You went a lot further and said the force has a bad reputation and continually have failed to back this up.

I was just listening to a member of Garda Ombudsman committee on the news who stated that the Barr report showed real issues with processes and prodecures within the Gardai.

So and how does that prove that the Gardaí in the operation of their duties every day have a bad reputation.

If the Garda organisation was properly managed none of these incidents should have taken place,

I'm not disagreeing with the management question in these cases and I'm not disagree'ing with the valuable lessons that they will teach the Gardaí in improving said procedures.

there may only be a small % (btw I don't have total figures, I'm not avoiding your question) of people DIRECTLY involved with the incidents that Tribunals are looking at, but the processes and procedures in the Gardai failed prevent them. That is the organisation as a whole, these members of Gardai that was were named were members of a force who were trained by the force and acting on behalf of the force while been managed by the force. IMO you can't simply dismiss my opinion because only a small % of Gardai exploited the blatent problems within the organisation.

I can dismiss your opinion because its only an opinion.
You have not shown any fact whatsoever to back up this flimsy case you are trying to make that the Gardaí have a bad reputation.
You are waffling on and avoiding where I'm pointing out to you that the percentage of Gardaí involved is tiny.

Which leads me to be believe the force currently has a bad reputation, its an opinion not a crusade,

Complete rubbish as you have no evidence to back your claim other than the activities of a tiny minority of Gardaí.

infact one could argue that you are on a crusade to excuse the problems with the Gardai that allowed these awful incidents to occur.

You know when I said carry on with the silly arguments as it underlines how silly your conclusions are,I wasnt actually expecting you to do so.
But hey you've done so there.
You've not come up with one ounce of evidence other than waffle to back your assertion that the Gardaí have a bad reputation.
You've nothing to show only a tiny percentage of bad apples ergo this circling the wagons is making your case even worse.
But hey carry on...

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

Which is different to you bashing the whole of the Gardaí with out reading the full report either,in what way exactly? You went a lot further and said the force has a bad reputation and continually have failed to back this up.

The basis for my opinion is not just the Barr report, and I have not failed to backup my opinion you just have chosen to dismiss what happened as only affecting a small % of Gardai instead grasping the concept that the organistaion as a whole had to have failed to allow these circumstances to occur

Rock Climber wrote:

So and how does that prove that the Gardaí in the operation of their duties every day have a bad reputation.I'm not disagreeing with the management question in these cases and I'm not disagree'ing with the valuable lessons that they will teach the Gardaí in improving said procedures. I can dismiss your opinion because its only an opinion.
You have not shown any fact whatsoever to back up this flimsy case you are trying to make that the Gardaí have a bad reputation.
You are waffling on and avoiding where I'm pointing out to you that the percentage of Gardaí involved is tiny.Complete rubbish as you have no evidence to back your claim other than the activities of a tiny minority of Gardaí.You know when I said carry on with the silly arguments as it underlines how silly your conclusions are,I wasnt actually expecting you to do so.
But hey you've done so there.
You've not come up with one ounce of evidence other than waffle to back your assertion that the Gardaí have a bad reputation.
You've nothing to show only a tiny percentage of bad apples ergo this circling the wagons is making your case even worse.
But hey carry on...

You see imo your still seeing these cases are a few bad eggs in a big basket going on a solo run, I see it as an organisation failing to have proper managment in place along with proper processes and procedures which allowed these incidents take place and hence imo that organisation has a bad reputation. I also believe I am not alone in this opinion as shown in an MRBI poll taken in 2002 which showed 50% of people polled had NO confidence in the Gardai! 50% Rock Climber and you still reckon my argument is silly?

I also just heard on the news that Bertie Ahern has said "Lessons have to be learned" from the Barr tribunal report and he repeated the apology to the Carthy family.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

The basis for my opinion is not just the Barr report, and I have not failed to backup my opinion you just have chosen to dismiss what happened as only affecting a small % of Gardai instead grasping the concept that the organistaion as a whole had to have failed to allow these circumstances to occur

You've not backed up your opinion at all as regards the Gardaí having a bad reputation.
Saying you have a thousand million times doesnt change the fact that you havent.
You're speculating about the entire force based on the actions of a tiny minority.

You see imo your still seeing these cases are a few bad eggs in a big basket going on a solo run, I see it as an organisation failing to have proper managment in place along with proper processes and procedures which allowed these incidents take place and hence imo that organisation has a bad reputation. I also believe I am not alone in this opinion as shown in an MRBI poll taken in 2002 which showed 50% of people polled had NO confidence in the Gardai! 50% Rock Climber and you still reckon my argument is silly?

One poll from 4 years ago...I suppose you'll be calling for disbandment next :rolleyes:

I presume it's this I wonder should we take all the other findings of that one single poll from 4 years ago and treat them as gospel today?(by the way it appears that poll was taken in Donegal only and not nationwide)

Sorry Irish1 I can hear the barrell scraping,do you want another one?

I also just heard on the news that Bertie Ahern has said "Lessons have to be learned" from the Barr tribunal report and he repeated the apology to the Carthy family.

More avoidance waffle.I also said lessons have to be learned.
You've asserted the entire force has a bad reputation and continue to show no evidence for this.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

Sorry Irish1 I can hear the barrell scraping,do you want another one?
More avoidance waffle.I also said lessons have to be learned.
You've asserted the entire force has a bad reputation and continue to show no evidence for this.

The poll may be 4 years old but it still factual evidence that others supported my opinion, perhaps you could show me a poll that supprorts your claim that my opinion is rubbish. Another poll in 2001 showed "Only 50% of 18-to-24-year-olds have confidence in the Gardai"

I notice also you didn't repsond to my statement that:

You see imo your still seeing these cases are a few bad eggs in a big basket going on a solo run, I see it as an organisation failing to have proper managment in place along with proper processes and procedures which allowed these incidents take place and hence imo that organisation has a bad reputation.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

The poll may be 4 years old but it still factual evidence that others supported my opinion,

Actually that poll was taken in the constituency where most of the wrong doings were taking place...and its 4 years old.How does it in anyway reflect on Gardaí nationwide?
It's understandable that of all places feelings would run high local to the problem.I'm actually surprised but not shocked that the local people 4 years ago were split 50:50 on the issue.It's also understandable that people will rightfully ask for lessons to be drawn and learned from episodes like this.But its not understandable at all to draw the conclusion that the whole force has a bad reputation arising out of isolated but bad incidents.

perhaps you could show me a poll that supprorts your claim that my opinion is rubbish.

I dont have to,you're making a statement that the Gardaí have a bad reputation and all you come up with so far is the Barr report and a poll of people in the constituency that it was based.

Another poll in 2001 showed "Only 50% of 18-to-24-year-olds have confidence in the Gardai"

5 years ago.Better you are getting:rolleyes: Shall I call Lord Patten in now?

I notice also you didn't repsond to my statement that:

Whats the point in me replying to that wafflly repetition of your unsubstantiated claims? All you said there was the Gardaí have a bad reputation because some of their procedures need improving.You've stated your opinion but not proven your case.We've been shown where something is wrong and needs improving but in no way whatsoever have we been shown that these issues have mucked up the Gardaí's reputation outside of this episode..and why? because they are isolated incidents.

Tip: In stead of treating us to waffle,if you want to apply what you are saying to the whole force you'll have to provide evidence that these incidents are endemic to the whole force.You'll also have to do a lot better than a 5 yr old survey of 18 to 24 yr olds...

Villain

The poll may be outdated but the fact that 2 polls a year apart had simalar results shows that the trend was there.

But hey I suppose its easier to call my argument "wafflly repetition of your unsubstantiated claims" rather than try and actually discuss it or provide a counter argument.

I have provided an opinion and backed it up with an explanation and factual evidence of what leads me to have this opinion, I have also stated that two polls show at two points in the last 5 years a large number of people had no confidence in the Gardai. Without having more recent polls to counter this argument you can only try and dismiss my opinion by calling it silly etc.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

The poll may be outdated but the fact that 2 polls a year apart had simalar results shows that the trend was there.

I see so your expecting an overall FF pd majority at the next election then...

But hey I suppose its easier to call my argument "wafflly repetition of your unsubstantiated claims" rather than try and actually discuss it or provide a counter argument.

I've done nothing here but question the flaws in your logic.

I have provided an opinion and backed it up with an explanation and factual evidence of what leads me to have this opinion,

We're back to the medical profession being of ill repute because of its bad apples.
Things dont work that way,even if you want them to.

I have also stated that two polls show at two points in the last 5 years a large number of people had no confidence in the Gardai. Without having more recent polls to counter this argument you can only try and dismiss my opinion by calling it silly etc.

Oh I dont even have to do that,You'll no doubt do that for me when you start predicting FF and PD landslides with evidence from a poll taken in one constituency 4 years ago.
The trend is there according to that poll...

I've havent often read such nonsense ,but I'm reading it in your posts.

Villain

My Posts are far from nonsense, however I have seen your type of posts before, i.e. where posters simply call other peoples posts nonsense etc instead of actually arguing and discussing the facts at hand. I have shown the latest possible poll available, I would do the same if I was discussing the election next year use the latest possible poll. The facts are simple and straight forward imo, two tribunals have shown the managment of the Gardai to have failed on several circumstances the processes and procedures in place have failed on several occasions.

I am entitled to hold my opinion, and you are entitled to hold yours, only difference is I won't calls yours nonsense.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

I am entitled to hold my opinion, and you are entitled to hold yours, only difference is I won't calls yours nonsense.

Irish1 cop on.
Your opinion isnt nonsense but cherry picking one piece of info from a four year old poll so detached from the reality of 2006 is nonsense.

I'm closing this before I have to read any more wagon circling.