How you would change application process?

mcguiver

Hi guys + girls. As mentioned on another thread I'm doing a dissertation on how the firearms application process could be changed/improved, so any suggestions would be welcome.

For instance ,
Where do we draw the line on what can be got?
Should medical/mental health be an issue?
Introduce multiple licences with photo i.d. ?
Not have licences all being renewed at the same date?
Standardise nationwide, e.g. my Super "recommends" safe/alarm etc. etc.

All help apreciated,( but can we stay on topic.)

Many thanks

Mc Guiver

Sparks

mcguiver wrote:

Where do we draw the line on what can be got?

Where we draw it now seems fine - anything that can be used safely and for which the end user has a valid reason for wanting it.

Should medical/mental health be an issue?

Why would medical health be an issue?
As to mental health, you are already disentitled to apply for a certificate if you are of unsound mind or intemperate habits, so the mental health issue has been taken account of since 1925 at least. Thing is, you can't diagnose a psychotic break until after it happens. So unless the person is unbalanced when they apply, how do you test for it?

Introduce multiple licences with photo i.d. ?

No, one licence, same as in the UK including N.Ireland - a single FAC, with all your firearms listed on it. And nothing wrong with photo ID. If you're willing to have one for driving, flying or on your passport, nothing wrong with one for your firearms cert. But seriously - licence the man, not the gun.

Not have licences all being renewed at the same date?

Already done by the CJB.

Standardise nationwide, e.g. my Super "recommends" safe/alarm etc. etc.

Not a bad idea, recommended by Barr and everyone else, but the way the CJB does it is just wrong. Guidelines should be mandatorily in the public domain, and should be the result of consultation with qualified experts, not just a Minister's whim in an election year.

Clare gunner

As Sparks said;
liscense the man not the gun. why a three year liscense [odd number] four or six .
Photos on the Lic?Two minds on that,does it really bring much?Considering the amount of fake ID going around nowadays.Has anyone ever heard of anyone making a fake Irish gun certificate?Proably not as it is a pointless exercise,as it will be useless in a year and the backup checks done by the Gaurds would spot it too quickly.Who takes the pic?You or them,if you take the pic ,you have copyright on that photo for ever,and you have to inform them of copyright notice,that it can only be used for your gun liscense,driving liscense,etc.Therefore,it cant be used as a mug shot aginst you if for some reason the police need to find you for whatever reason.
So therefore the Gaurds must proably take your pic,and then they can use it for whatever purpose.

Limit on types of guns?
No reason,if you can use it safley in a safe area.

Competancy.
Will come in.However,there should be leeway for those who have held firearms over a certain period,[say ten consectuive years].That there is reasonable grounds to belive they know what they are doing with the gun.
Would also suggest that anyone who has a verifiable outside Ireland qualification EG NRA hunter saftey course,NRA safe firearms handling course,CCWP,Recognised US shooting school qualification cert,[Eg Gunsite,Thunder Ranch,etc] European police of whatever EU country approved firearms handling course,be accepted as competancy in Ireland as well.

Standardisation of saftey procedures
Yes,All Superintendants should be within set guidelines as to good reason,saftey in the premises,appropriate to the guns stored there[No point in Fort Knox,if you only have an air pistol].Mental health quiries etc. Then if somthing happens they are coverd in saying ,that there was nothing they could do but grant ,because the shooter filled all the legal requirements. As it is there is too much goal post shifting by Superintendants at their whim.

Mental health checks
A human rights issue in the making.There is doctor /patient confidentiality to be taken into account.If it is necessary,then the doctor should be obliged only to issue medical information revelant to the enquiry of mental health,with the patients written consent,and the information must be signed for by the FAO/Super who is making the decision,also how many copies are needed ,why,and each person accessing them must sign for them and reason why.And after the decision is taken all copies must be destroyed or returned.
Standard procedure in dealing with confidential info in any major organisation if anyone would think it long winded.

More Specific terms in law
IE the Silencer debate,what is a silencer exactly?Same for this restricted category,at the moment it is an "idonlikedelokodat" charter.Why would a 9mm handgun be more "especially dangerous"than say a 270 rifle?Or a 9mm carbine?

Sparks

There is doctor /patient confidentiality to be taken into account.

No, there isn't. The Irish Medical Council's code of ethics on confidentiality is quite specific in saying that if confidentiality can be broken if it will save the patient or anyone else from harm.

Clare gunner

Hmm,without getting into another lengthy debate Sparks on this issue.I would say that is a very dubious point,and has been the debate of more learned legal heads than us here in Ireland,namely the A and X cases.
Personally I would be off to my lawyer if I found out my doc was handing out my medical info to any and all"for my own good"

Sparks

I'm just saying what Barr said CG. The Irish Medical Council's code of ethics is quoted in Barr, specifically this bit from page 29:

16.3 Exceptions to Confidentiality
There are four circumstances where exceptions may be justified in the absence of permission from the patient:
(1) When ordered by a Judge in a Court of Law, or by a Tribunal established
by an Act of the Oireachtas.
(2) When necessary to protect the interests of the patient.
(3) When necessary to protect the welfare of society.
(4) When necessary to safeguard the welfare of another individual or patient.

And he said that this means they already can report concerns over the mental health of a client who owns a firearm.

mcguiver

All good points so far guys, many thanks.
Apologies, when I mentioned multiple licences, I meant, similar to drivers licence.. all licences on one cert, or more prefably, credit card type i.d.

I personally would like to draw a line on what firearms can be bought.. because in my travels overseas I've met those guys who believe that they can have anything!!! and I mean anything from tear gas guns to tanks!!

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

I'm just saying what Barr said CG. The Irish Medical Council's code of ethics is quoted in Barr, specifically this bit from page 29:

And he said that this means they already can report concerns over the mental health of a client who owns a firearm.

but what if you're mentally stable, the doc cant comment then can he

as you said he can only comment if you are considered unsafe. So if he considers safe he cant say so

or is the option for the doc to give the all clear available

mcguiver

Any thoughts on how we could avoid people who just haven't the maturity or basic "cop-on" to hold a firearm?

You all met one I'm sure? who else shoots up all those road signs?

And any thoughts on a basic physical check of firearms when renewing certs?? I've seen a few shotguns held together with string, wire and nails... you know that rusty one behind the farm door!!!

Riggser

What's likely going to be the new firearms license procedure?

mcguiver

In light of the recent events overseas I thought I'd dig up this thread.

Firstly my deepest symapthys to all involved in the shootings... I can't comprehend what the families and survivors must be going through.

(I notice a thread was started on the shooting and shut down, understandable... but unfortunately there will be a knock on effect around the world...knee- jerk reactions as usual, which will have effects on our sport and the vast majority of responsible shooters)

So to get back to the basic question:
How would you change the application process?
I'm currently interviewing shooters/ firearms officers etc. and I'd appreciate any suggestions to discuss with them, especially systems in other parts of the world.

Sparks

mcguiver wrote:

In light of the recent events overseas I thought I'd dig up this thread.
Firstly my deepest symapthys to all involved in the shootings... I can't comprehend what the families and survivors must be going through.
(I notice a thread was started on the shooting and shut down, understandable... but unfortunately there will be a knock on effect around the world...knee- jerk reactions as usual, which will have effects on our sport and the vast majority of responsible shooters)

The reason the thread was locked is very simple - it has nothing to do with shooting sports or sport shooting, and I simply don't have the stomach to listen to another example of human tragedy being dragged to the level of point-scoring in an ideological debate between two entrenched camps before the bodies are even buried.

So no offence meant mcguiver, but any more posts on that line will be deleted.

So to get back to the basic question:
How would you change the application process?
I'm currently interviewing shooters/ firearms officers etc. and I'd appreciate any suggestions to discuss with them, especially systems in other parts of the world.

We've discussed this a lot - 5-year licence for the person, not the firearm. That results in somewhere below 8% of the current number of annual man-hours spent by the Gardai on admin being needed; leaving the remaining 92% or more for crime prevention.

Vegeta

Seriously the system in the UK is pretty good.
The person (after a good background check) is licensed for a particular calibre for 5 years.

The license therefore has to mean something, license the man, not the gun. So for example Joe Bloggs is licensed to use a .223 for hunting vermin and target shooting.

I think above anything else we all want a transparent system. We want a strict set of rules to follow and if we comply with all the rules we get the license.

None of this one rule for munster and another rule in leinster crap.

So a transparent system that gives a person a license to use a certain calibre

sidneyreilly

Dont see why different caliber should be a consideration, firearms a firearm, a .22 is dangerous so is a .50! Care is required with both

Sparks

Dont see why different caliber should be a consideration

Can't use a .50 on a range built only for .22lr target shooting, not safely. I mean, if you tried it in RRPC, you'd be through the target, through the deflection plate, through the concrete wall and out the back before you knew where you were.
So if your licence for a firearm is dependant on you being in a range where it can be safely used, then calibre is a consideration.

sidneyreilly

True. Indeed fair enough. But, there is a lot more attention put on the difference between them then there should. there are plenty out there who have no respect for the danger of the .22lr because it was "handy" to get. I dont think there should be any difference in that regard. I dont think (if a hunter or member of fullbore range) it should be any more difficult to get a fullbore cert over a .22lr. Note also that a .220 Swift is the same to licensing system as .22lr and it's a beast!! Also fail to see the difference between actions i.e. bolt/semi

Vegeta

you are indeed correct sidney all firearms should be treated equally but I am looking at it from a garda point of view

Surely they will need to know what type of firearm we have. So a license for a rifle may be a bit too generic.

Umiq88

I think the point is more that higher calibre rifles like .30's and the 338lapua and so on should be able to be licensed here they are no more dangerous that a .243 both will do damage if used in an unsafe manner how is it that someone can be considered perfectly safe with a .243 but if you give them a .338 they are likely to go on a rampage.

I do agree with sparks though that they should only be granted provided the person is know to be safe and of sound mind and has experience and can prove a suitable use and has the land or a range to use the firearm.

Agree with Vegeta on the UK license it does seem to be a very good model although land having to be cleared would not work as there has been no or very little training given to the FAO or supers which i think is one of the biggest problems. They simply dont know what they are doing they have no guidelines so to cover their backs they just refuse.

the hunter

(I do agree with sparks though that they should only be granted provided the person is know to be safe and of sound mind and has experience and can prove a suitable use and has the land or a range to use the firearm.)

is this not the way its done already they do a check and you need landowners permission ?????

Quillo

Licence the holder and not the gun.

Something like a driving licence where you are licenced to drive certain categories of vehicle based on demonstrated competence, and health.

So if you had something like (off the top of my head):

Cat A Air rifles and pistols up to 25 ft lbs (and crossbows etc)
Cat B Rimfire rifles and pistols, and airguns above 25ft lbs
Cat C shotguns
Cat D Centrefire rifles up to (say) 2000 ft lbs
Cat E Centrefire rifles above 2000 ft lbs
Cat F Centre fire handguns

Given that is is probably no legitimate civilian need for fully automatic weapons I've left them out.

Sound moderators should be considered as being no different to any other accessory (scope, bipod etc) and should probably be mandatory on both health&safety grounds and civic duty grounds when hunting !

Clare gunner

On a very long shot about FA weaponary.Yes there is ligit useage for civillians,collector and investment weaponary.

Considering that a lowly STEN SMG is worth over 5,000 USD,and it only cost somthing like £1 to make. Up to and beyond the 25K mark for some old ratty MG 42s:eek:
OTOH There would have to be a totally different liscensing system for somthing like that. You would need to have somthing like a semi bank vault to store,need a total backround check,inc you family[no point in you being responsible and you have a nutter of a 19 yr old son/daughter].Lets say THERE is where the restricted category should be.
Lets face it you would willingly pay for extra security,I mean if you just forked out 50 K for an M2 Browning 50 Cal.Plus all govt taxes,checks etc.Would you want that nicked?
Not going to happen I know...but...:)

astraboy

How about more transparency through the licensing process. For instance, there was a thread on here recently where a person was denied a license for a 9mm pistol as his super did not like the sound of it. If the person was in another district then he may not have had this issue. If all licenses were processed by one section of the Guards specifically dedicated to firearms licensing and control of legally held firearms it would put everyone on a level playing field. Does anyone agree?

I am not, BTW, saying that the local guardi should be taken out of the picture, if they have a genuine concern about a person getting a weapon then this should seriously be considered. The local guardi are going to know if a person has had a history of violence for instance, or if the person has been in trouble before or maybe involved in incidents that would make them inelligable under good reason for a license.

Dr Strange

Clare gunner wrote:

On a very long shot about FA weaponary.Yes there is ligit useage for civillians,collector and investment weaponary.

Considering that a lowly STEN SMG is worth over 5,000 USD,and it only cost somthing like £1 to make. Up to and beyond the 25K mark for some old ratty MG 42s:eek:
OTOH There would have to be a totally different liscensing system for somthing like that. You would need to have somthing like a semi bank vault to store,need a total backround check,inc you family[no point in you being responsible and you have a nutter of a 19 yr old son/daughter].Lets say THERE is where the restricted category should be.
Lets face it you would willingly pay for extra security,I mean if you just forked out 50 K for an M2 Browning 50 Cal.Plus all govt taxes,checks etc.Would you want that nicked?
Not going to happen I know...but...:)

We have that in Germany - a collector's licence (even allows for the highest capacity mags rather than the two rounds restricted on hunters licences. What I mean by this is, that you can buy a collector's weapon on a hunting licence but the magazine has to be altered to only allow 2 rounds to be fired). Only thing is that the firearm has to be altered to semi-automatic. You are not allowed to have a full-automatic firearm in working condition, even as a collector. At the moment there is a company that offers reworked MP38s/MP40s as well as STGW44s as collectors semi-auto versions in Germany and they cost about €2000.00. The collector's market for deactivated historical weapons is even bigger over there.

Best,
Preusse

Clare gunner

Sport Systeme Dittrich??:D
www.ssd.weapon.de

Lovely guns:D They are built from the bottom up as semis.If you have a deacted 95% intact old German semi auto rifle from ww2.They will react it for you in semi auto only.The genuine ones cost almost twice that of Dittrich.
There is a gunsmith doing this as well for a bunch of Thompson SMGs that was found in a cache in Russia of lend lease guns.Making quite a hit in the carbine class in PR in Germany:)

dimebag249

Good point about machineguns Clare gunner. I think they should be legal in much the same way as in the USA. Machinegun owners over there literally sign away their Fourth Amendment rights and are therefore probably the most unlikely section of American society to commit a crime involving a gun. Plus, would you spend ten thousand dollars to legally own a selective fire MP5 to rob a bank or go 'postal' with when even in this country they can be purchased quite cheaply illegally?

Clare gunner

Why would you need to??Class 3 gunownership is THE most expensive shooting in the USA You dont pick up empty brass.You SHOVEL it away!!!!.:eek: So if you can afford that sort of ammo and gun.You have no reason to knock off the bank,and are hardly borderline loon material either.

According to FBI stats;Full auto weaponary is the least stolen type of firearm in the USA.

Even the "gang bangers" stay away from FA,apart from having one as status symbols.Why pay out a grand for an AK,when you can get a bunch of Saturday night specials or sawn offs for the same money??Or having a good chance of "Da Man " getting it and you doing an automatic life for an unliscensed FA gun.???

Dr Strange

Clare gunner wrote:

Sport Systeme Dittrich??:D
www.ssd.weapon.de

Lovely guns:D They are built from the bottom up as semis.If you have a deacted 95% intact old German semi auto rifle from ww2.They will react it for you in semi auto only.The genuine ones cost almost twice that of Dittrich.
There is a gunsmith doing this as well for a bunch of Thompson SMGs that was found in a cache in Russia of lend lease guns.Making quite a hit in the carbine class in PR in Germany:)

Yes, that's the one And P08, P38, C96 and K98 can also be held as regular firearms without any modification to calibre or system.

Best,
Preusse

mcguiver

Thanks for the replies,
Transparency is a big point, everyone on all sides seems to agree. I'm not sure about the collectors pieces, (much as I'd love to have a few de-cativated on display).

Anyone here know the basics of licencing in Northern Ireland?

Sandy22

mcguiver wrote:

Anyone here know the basics of licencing in Northern Ireland?

http://www.psni.police.uk/index/advice_centre/firearms.htm

BryanL

seems like there is a lot of knowledge here about the various european systems of gun licencing and hunting regulation.from them,what do people think with be the best system.
it think a few of the shooting organisations shoulD introduce formalised,courses.For example a target association could give a weekend courses to anyone with 15 range visits in the safe handling of ,pistols,full bore etc.
NARGC could give a similar one on deer stalking to anyone who would be looking to apply for a full bore licence to stalk deer.
these could help get money into organisations,increase their profie and get them recognised as the organisations for safe gun use,conservation etc. These need not get legal recognition but if the Gardai were aware of them it could only help your chances when applying for a licence etc.
would love to here opinions on how we can promote shootings position
Bryan

Clare gunner

Bryan
Trouble is asking which EU countries liscense system is the best is like asking whats a better tool to build a house with,a saw or hammer?
They are all uniquely based on each countries politics and histories,hunting rights,and pouplation bases.
Personally,I think our system here is fine,if it was updated and brought into the 21st century.We have plenty of laws on our books on the enforcement side,and looks like plenty more arriving soon.It needs to be brought into the OMOL on the UK model to make life easier for all.There needs to be a national policy on issuance between all divisions of the Garda districts.We have the appeal system,untried as is and the 90 day decision time coming online.
What I would like to see is addition or clarification on the deact situation that you could hold a collectors liscense for multiple firearms of a certain type,and are building a collection of paticular historic and culturel value.

By this I mean you collect a specific type of gun IE Lugers.But you can only collect Lugers and derivatives of them.Not suddenly decide on AKs.You have to prove you are a bonafide collector and knowledgeable on the specific gun.
This is a German idea that is pretty workable.This is for live weapons BTW

Deacts bring this into line with the EU.A properly Deacted weapon is nothing more than an expensive,awkward,hi tech club! You should be able to buy this liscense with a once off fee with no bother once you made an application to the Gardai,and they are satisfied you are not a post office blagger,fresh out of the Joy.

Tests; I think it should be a basic weekend course on line with the US NRA,basic firearms handling course on shotgun,rifle pistol,revolver.
You dont need much more to teach the basics of safe gun handling.
The hunters course,it is already here if you want to hunt in Coilte woods,but,as usual I see this a cobbled together UK course and a very from what rumours are going about closed shop,with some underhanded practises.It is not a state run course,and is seemingly unnacountable under Freedom Of Info rules as well.

The US NRA hunters course is fine again,as it empathises saftey in the field not academia and classwork,as is the norm in the EU countries.
Needing to know what deer to shoot is fine again,but then Coillte would want to get it's act together as well on deer management.It is ashambles from what I have heard,and seen of some national herds.

I would rather keep it that way,as incase closed intrest people get hold of the reins and start making the test more difficult to the point of impossibility.This was the norm in West Germany,until the wall fell.Germany got 4 provinces back from the East.Who became federal states,allowed to make their own hunting and gun laws.They promptly decided the hunting test could be done within a month internsive course.This horrified the west Germans who had slugged it out over four years to get their liscenses,and especially the closed intrest groups,as they now had lost control over who was getting in.
Get your saftey cert,then apply for the liscense.
The check ride from flying and diving does have some merits as well,you want a bigger calibre type.Get a day course on it and check out in safe handling,off you go and apply.
Keep the courses short and intense.There is nothing worse than listening to somone drone on about the physics of the firearm projectile after combustion of the powderin the casing.You can bone up on the academia yourself,can you handle the gun safley is INMHO more vital.

Probie times in gunclubs IMO is a waste of time and money.If you think you are going to weed out the potential nutters like that ,you wont.There are two cases that spring to mind Hamilton and the German city of Erfurt shootings.They were as nice as pie and did their bit,etc.Yet still cooked off.
Unless you are going to demand off every club member a head shrink inspection every month as part of the membership requirements??

All in all we dont have it too bad here,just modernise it abit,and streamline it and dispose of some nonsenseical stuff.We would be fine.
Will add one point here as well, re OMOL.That will proably require many manhours on PULSE and taking some Gardai off their wooden beats and back onto the streets where they should be.So we can be sure it will meet opposition,and also be intresting to see HOW this will be done technically?What happens when you buy a gun from the EU or the US? the DOJ will have to be connected into PULSE as well,to get the paperwork done quickly.How will the gun be regd onto your liscense.I see the end of the old bit of paper we all get Aug 1st..
Intresting times ahead on that one.