Music in Islam

babyvaio

HelterSkelter wrote:

How do you feel about it, just out of interest? Do you listen to music? If so, what types?

I used to listen to music, but I do not listen to it anymore. I listen to the Qur'an recitations and lectures.

Squaddy

Sorry if someone said this already but Sunni Yusulf (spelt right?) is a fantastic singer.

babyvaio

Squaddy wrote:

Sorry if someone said this already but Sunni Yusulf (spelt right?) is a fantastic singer.

Yusuf Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_Islam

blackthorn

^ Or Sami Yusuf even.

the_new_mr

Wibbs wrote:

(AFAIR correct me here, oh look it's the new mr )

Sorry for being late. I've been crazy busy with real world stuff recently and honestly haven't had the chance to check the forum. Found a whole pile of threads since

Anyway, Wibbs is correct here. There are generally three opinions on this. There is a large number of people in each and everyone should respect the opinion of the other.

I personally wondered about this subject for a long while myself and, after being told different things by different people, I decided to find out for myself. I read a book called "Diversion and Arts in Islam" by Yusuf Al-Qaradawi. I bought it because it had everything I was looking for and mentioned the Verses of the Quran and the hadith that say that music is forbidden.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, Qaradawi's view is that music per se is not haram but that the content of the music itself is important (mozart ok, snoop dogg not ok:)). This was actually my own opinion up until reading the book but the book reaffirmed that opinion.

With respect to the verse from Surat Luqman and that "idle talk" is with reference to singing, Qaradawi stated:

Ibn Hazem was of the opinion that this claim is groundless for three reaons: First, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Prophet (peace be upon him) forbade singing. Second, their judgements ran counter to those of the other companions and followers. Third, the context of the Ayat (verses) on which they based their argument is in direct contradiction to their verdict

and so it goes on.

As for the hadiths mentioning musical instruments (or sometimes specifically string or wind instruments), these are considered hadith daeef (weak). This was also something I'd heard before but couldn't be sure until reading the book.

Anyway, at the end of the day, I still accept the fact that music may indeed be haram or halal. We have to respect all the opinions and it's no insult to anyone if we accept one opinion over another. Only God knows for sure but I honestly don't believe that it is.

And concerning wasting time, there is no question that we shouldn't waste too much of our time but there is no wrong in entertaining ourselves a little. The spirit cannot go on listening to Quran all the time. For sure, the more you do, the better but you shouldn't do it just because you feel you have to. You should do it because you feel you want to. So, a bit of Quran, a bit of world cup, a bit of beethoven, a bit of computer games and a bit of this and that is fine and I understand that all scholars agree that relaxing a little is perfectly acceptable as long as it's not done in excess.

metrovelvet

Can you guys take ballet/jazz/contemporary/hip hop?

If not, why?

the_new_mr

You mean dance, right? Well, for sure any kind of dancing that entails wearing very tight fitting clothes is not okay for both men and women alike. Dancing in a mixed environment is also not okay (unless with your spouse, brother/sister etc).

I think that other than that, it would be okay to put on a dance show for people of the same sex as long as the moves are not too lude.

If you mean music, then I'm with the opinion that the content of the music matters. In the same way that the difference between an okay sentence and a bad one is that the bad one contains bad language or is backstabbing someone, the difference between good lyrics and bad lyrics are the same criteria.

metrovelvet

Yes I did mean dancing. But I didnt mean club dancing or social dancing. What I mean is dancing in its various artistic disciplines, dance as performance, or as a student of dance.

Why do the genders have to be segregated? Art wants to bring people together not pull them apart! Thats one of the great things about music too -it brings people together!

the_new_mr

Sorry about the delay. Had a lot on my plate recently. Actually tried to reply yesterday morning but boards was having none of it Just a glitch I guess

Yes, I agree with you. Art does indeed bring people together.

Still, we have to be careful what happens when we're brought together. It is my understanding that dance as a performance etc is okay as long as the dress is not tight fitting or moves lude. Not sure if it's okay to have mixed perfomers infront of a mixed audience if the previous two conditions are satisfied but I would say it's probably okay for same sex performers and audience.

metrovelvelt wrote:

Why do the genders have to be segregated?

Well, mixed dancing and physical contact and/or lude moves lead to the obvious situation of a high probability of sexual tension between individuals. There's no denying it really. As I said above, I'm not sure on if it would be okay if the performers and audience were mixed as long as dress and moves would be okay.

If there is any doubt to the natural train of thought of individuals if lude dress and lude moves are allowed in a mixed sex environment then I need only ask anyone who is in doubt to listen to a few guys or girls chatting about members of the opposite sex when they're watching a program like "So you think you can dance?" or "Strictly come dancing". Accepted, mostly guys are guilty of this but girls also take part in such conversations.

God doesn't wish hardship for us and such things are for our own protection as sometimes we need protection from our own selves.

metrovelvet

I have never ever heard anyone talk about what you see on those programmes in eroticized terms. The only way I could imagine that - is if they are sex obsessed individuals.

I see dance and in it I see something transcendant [when its good quality dance and choreography] moving, and empathic.

How sad that some people miss out on what the human body can do and express where language fails.

Medina

What exactly do you see it as expressing?
Surely dance expresses lots of different things, but you have to agree that the most popular forms express sexual desire or create sexual tension.

I would say it really depends who the audience is and who you are dancing with.

I doubt it is wrong for a Muslim woman to give her husband a private lapdance?

metrovelvet

No. I already said what kind of dance Im talking about. Im not talking about social/club dancing. Im talking about something else, where people devote their lives to a technique and an art which they then give to an audience.

And I dont agree with you that the most popular forms are for sexual arousal. That's pole dancing. Can we leave the gutter out of this please. Thank you.

Hobbes

Different people have different levels of what they define music that causes arousal. As I recall "In the air tonight" was one of the most famous and was mostly played in clubs/discos at the time.

Medina is right. It really depends on the context of the music/dance.

Medina

I think you're being overly harsh there Metrovelvet.

The most popular forms of dance would appear (but not necessarily are) things like Salsa dancing, RnB dancing, Hip Hop dancing, Flamenco dancing or what's called 'Modern Dance'. I think all of these are used to provoke a person's sexuality.



If you mean things like Ballet then ballet certainly is more subtle and beautiful a dance and maybe more innocent.

metrovelvet

Hobbes wrote:

Different people have different levels of what they define music that causes arousal. As I recall "In the air tonight" was one of the most famous and was mostly played in clubs/discos at the time.

Medina is right. It really depends on the context of the music/dance.

I was very specific about what kind of dance I was talking about. Im not talking about clubs and discos. How many times must I say it.

Hobbes

As I said it varies. Ballet for example can be very erotic depending on what your watching. People have different levels. Some people see pole dancing as no big deal, others would get pretty hot under the collar.

Why is that concept so hard to understand? Or do you need them to comment on a particular genre exactly?

metrovelvet

Hobbes if you dont mind it would be nice to hear from people who actually follow the islamic faith or those who follow and know something about dance.

Medina

Ok are we misunderstanding something here Metrovelvet?

This type of dance you talk about, does it have a named genre or not?

And can I ask exactly what you think it expresses..the dance itself?

Remember not costume or background or the music..but the dancing itself?

Hobbes

metrovelvet wrote:

Hobbes if you dont mind it would be nice to hear from people who actually follow the islamic faith or those who follow and know something about dance.

People are free to comment regardless if they are Islamic or not. I stated what I understood the answer was. Music/Dance is not forbidden by most muslims unless it leads to actions that would be against the islamic faith (eg. Drinking, sex, etc). There are extremists to the religon that believe that Music/Dance is forbidden (afair, the taleban for example) but it is not the majority.

Your only hang up I see is relating to music Genre. For the record there exists Muslim music in Hip Hop, Rap, Classical, Rock. As for Ballet and Jazz I Don't know but I don't see why not.

5 Seconds with google would tell you this. Now if you have a point please feel free to make it.

Wibbs

Medina wrote:

What exactly do you see it as expressing?
Surely dance expresses lots of different things, but you have to agree that the most popular forms express sexual desire or create sexual tension.

Who was it who said, "Dancing, a vertical expression of a horizontal desire"....

I would say it really depends who the audience is and who you are dancing with.

Exactly.

I doubt it is wrong for a Muslim woman to give her husband a private lapdance?

I'd reckon it's even encouraged. Islam to be fair has far less of a hangup about sex(in marriage anyhow) than most Christian denominations(certain practices are forbidden between married couples though).

Hobbes wrote:

Now if you have a point please feel free to make it.

Yea, kinda wondering myself.

metrovelvet

As I already said: ballet, jazz, modern, contemporary, tap, theatrical,

I had a question, not a point.

Hobbes

metrovelvet wrote:

As I already said: ballet, jazz, modern, contemporary, tap, theatrical,

Lets see..

Ballet - Azita Sahebjam. Famous Muslim ballet teacher.

Jazz - There is Jazz in Muslim society, actually John Coltrane is a Muslim.

Modern and contemporary music there are also muslims.

I can't see how Tap is banned either tbh, likewise with theatrical dance.

I think this is the point you tried to make.
"How sad that some people miss out on what the human body can do and express where language fails."

Which is incorrect.

metrovelvet

I was talking about dance, not musicians.

As far as dance you mention ballet. No mention of jazz or contemporary, hip hop, etc... salsa, tango, etc.

I think it is sad that some people miss out on dance.

Gordon

metrovelvet wrote:

I think it is sad that some people miss out on dance.

Sure, but if that's their religion then... that's their religion.

Hobbes

metrovelvet wrote:

As far as dance you mention ballet. No mention of jazz or contemporary, hip hop, etc... salsa, tango, etc.

Are you purposely ignoring? Or trying to provoke people here?

I have already said there are muslims in the area you said (hip hop, contemporary, jazz).

As for Salsa and Tango both are dances that erotic in nature, so they probably wouldn't.

metrovelvet

You mentioned musicians - not dance for those areas. Im talking about dance. Are you deliberately not reading what I wrote?

Hobbes

metrovelvet wrote:

You mentioned musicians - not dance for those areas. Im talking about dance. Are you deliberately not reading what I wrote?

I am reading what you wrote. You appear to me trying to provoke a negative response or promote your personal opinions on Islam, not ask a valid question.

You didn't get it with Music, so your trying it now with dance. You already have your answer, continuing to keep quoting other dances/music isn't going to change that answer.

metrovelvet

I didnt ask about Music - someone else did. Oy veh Hobbes! What is your beef?

Seriously, stop projecting. Dont lay this crap on me. You cant ask a question about the arts without deliberately trying to provoke? I think you're deliberately trying to provoke.

Hobbes

The forum has set rules on discussion. The #1 rule you appear to be breaking and this forum isn't for projecting your annoyances/hatred with Islam.

Take a weeks holiday.

babyvaio

metrovelvet wrote:

As I already said: ballet, jazz, modern, contemporary, tap, theatrical,

I had a question, not a point.

I said I wouldn't participate on this forum again, however I feel obliged to answer this question.

Any kind of a dance, which is not in line with the dress code in Islam or any other Law of Allah swt, is strictly prohibited. I think the reasons for this are clear, if not, I'll back it up with some evidence from authentic sources of Islam.

The Noble Qur'an

Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do.

24:30


And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigor, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

I think this makes it very clear - there is no need whatsoever after understanding these 2 verses to even think about dancing - however dancing in front of their spouses as stated by Medina is not contradicting the verses above. Other that this private dancing like art dancing, belly dancing, sky dancing, etc. call it what you like - if it's against the rules, then it cannot be lawful.

Private dancing (between a man and his wife) does not contradict the 2 verses, like having sexual pleasures between a man and his wife is allowed. So the music behind this art of whateveritiscalled dancing is out before you even got there - in other words; just to make it clear - if something is forbidden like improper clothing here and disallowed gazing then this is enough to have dancing forbidden.