A one off house

newbuild06

Hello all

Hope that someone out there can answer a few of my queries
I am in the process of getting quotes from companies who offer different types of house structure, i.e. fbt poroton blocks, exostein aac blocks and a few different timber frame manafacturers.
Our house is a storey and a half and about 2500sq ft
I am looking at getting the house as well insulated as possible from the start and from what i have been reading and studying the traditional 4in block and cavity wall are not the best route to go down. I may be wrong can someone tell me otherwise???
My main queries are

1- Has anyone out there used either poroton blocks or aac blocks as the main frame of their house and if so how did they find them to build with and what are the houses like now to live in??

2- I have been looking at TF companies that actually do the complete frame of the house that can be plastered and you dont need to put blocks or bricks around (if you know what i mean) but the quote s I am getting back are well out of our budget. Does anyone know of a company that does these type of TF houses at reasonable enough prices??

Any thoughts or comments are appreciated

sas

newbuild06 wrote:

Hello all

Hope that someone out there can answer a few of my queries
I am in the process of getting quotes from companies who offer different types of house structure, i.e. fbt poroton blocks, exostein aac blocks and a few different timber frame manafacturers.
Our house is a storey and a half and about 2500sq ft
I am looking at getting the house as well insulated as possible from the start and from what i have been reading and studying the traditional 4in block and cavity wall are not the best route to go down. I may be wrong can someone tell me otherwise???

You'll find several threads on this topic already if you search on boards. You'll find a nice 50/50 split on whether timberframe or block build is better. Its a debate that generates alot of energy shall we say.

The boards search itself is pretty much crippled at the moment so use the google search instead. Enter
"site:boards.ie timber frame" for example

newbuild06 wrote:

My main queries are

1- Has anyone out there used either poroton blocks or aac blocks as the main frame of their house and if so how did they find them to build with and what are the houses like now to live in??

Again use the google search for any references to it here. Also check out the forum on www.constructireland.ie. On boards. the main reference to poroton are from www.viking-house.net. ConstructIrelands forum has some people that have actually built their own (literally built their own) extensions using the poroton blocks. I'm looking into them myself at the moment.

newbuild06 wrote:

2- I have been looking at TF companies that actually do the complete frame of the house that can be plastered and you dont need to put blocks or bricks around (if you know what i mean) but the quote s I am getting back are well out of our budget. Does anyone know of a company that does these type of TF houses at reasonable enough prices??

What's a reasonable price? Although I agree, the prices I've seen are on the high side.

One system you didn't mention is the Kingspan TEK system. There is a guy on boards building with it at the moment. www.ttfc.com in wexford have a good reputation with this system. I know of 1 house in laois thats around 5000sq ft and the TEK frame was erected for approx 150K.

Happy hunting

SAS

Maud

Are you looking to build one of those Passive Houses that require no heating? I'd like to see it as I am interested in the same. Where are you building?

newbuild06

Hi sas
thanks for the reply

You'll find several threads on this topic already if you search on boards. You'll find a nice 50/50 split on whether timberframe or block build is better. Its a debate that generates alot of energy shall we say

i have read a few of them before and they have some very good info but i found it difficult to get ino them again this may be due to the board search being crippled at the moment.

some people that have actually built their own (literally built their own) extensions using the poroton blocks. I'm looking into them myself at the moment

.

I have sen a few of these discussions and replys where people have used poroton blocks for exrtensions and found them very good, however, i am still to find anyone who has used them for the whole build of a house, do you know of anyone???

What's a reasonable price? Although I agree, the prices I've seen are on the high side.

A few of the quotes i got were up above €250,000 and they were well over our budgets even though these quotes were for virtually turnkey houses.

One system you didn't mention is the Kingspan TEK system. There is a guy on boards building with it at the moment. www.ttfc.com in wexford have a good reputation with this system. I know of 1 house in laois thats around 5000sq ft and the TEK frame was erected for approx 150K

.

That doesn't seem to bad a quote from kingspan i will have a look on their website

thanks again sas

newbuild06

Maud wrote:

Are you looking to build one of those Passive Houses that require no heating? I'd like to see it as I am interested in the same. Where are you building?

Yea maud thats what i would like to do, like yourself i am trying to find people who have gone down this road and how they find it.
There is a really good website www.viking-house.net and they have some really good info on there about passive houses

However, if it proves that i can't build a passive house because it may be out of our budget i want to buld as close to this type as i possibly can that is why i am keen to hear of anyone who has experience with poroton blocks or aac blocks.

I am based in the westmeath and will keep you posted as to what route we go down.

cheers for your reply

sas

newbuild06 wrote:

A few of the quotes i got were up above €250,000 and they were well over our budgets even though these quotes were for virtually turnkey houses.

What square footage was that quote for?

newbuild06 wrote:

That doesn't seem to bad a quote from kingspan i will have a look on their website

Just to be clear. Kingspan are more expensive for their own system that their authorised agents. The Wexford timber Frame company www.ttfc.com were cheaper for another guy on boards. Kingspan did include more i.e gypsum slabs, doors, skirting, architrave etc. but nowhere near enough to justify the 30% price difference. Also Kingspan Century have a bad reputation for dealing with one off house builders. They tend to mess people around alot. They are more interested in a builder with 200 houses to build.

Do-more

Hi NB06

As you are in Westmeath, have you spoken to Garry in Riverview Timber Frame in Kinnegad? They specialise in one-offs, not sure if they can offer a passive solution but they certainly have a lot more variations than when I built 4 years ago. At that time I found them extremely good to deal with and would have no trouble in reccommending them. Certainly a cheaper option than Elk or Griffner. I'm not impressed with them, I live close to the original showhouse for one of these companies(also now 4 years old) and there are cracks in the stucco in the corners of almost all the windows, cracks in the joints between panels and loss of bond between stucco and windows in a number of places. This was a house produced in Austria, what the early Irish produced ones are like, lord knows!

Maud

newbuild06 wrote:

Yea maud thats what i would like to do, like yourself i am trying to find people who have gone down this road and how they find it.
There is a really good website www.viking-house.net and they have some really good info on there about passive houses

However, if it proves that i can't build a passive house because it may be out of our budget i want to buld as close to this type as i possibly can that is why i am keen to hear of anyone who has experience with poroton blocks or aac blocks.

I am based in the westmeath and will keep you posted as to what route we go down.

cheers for your reply

Thanks for the info.

newbuild06

hi sas

What square footage was that quote for?

the house is 2500 sq ft and is a storey and a half

newbuild06

Hi do more

As you are in Westmeath, have you spoken to Garry in Riverview Timber Frame in Kinnegad? They specialise in one-offs, not sure if they can offer a passive solution but they certainly have a lot more variations than when I built 4 years ago. At that time I found them extremely good to deal with and would have no trouble in reccommending them. Certainly a cheaper option than Elk or Griffner. I'm not impressed with them, I live close to the original showhouse for one of these companies(also now 4 years old) and there are cracks in the stucco in the corners of almost all the windows, cracks in the joints between panels and loss of bond between stucco and windows in a number of places. This was a house produced in Austria, what the early Irish produced ones are like, lord knows!

i have been onto riverview and am awaiting a quote,i have heard some very good reports about them.
What do you have around your frame is it blocks? if so how do you find this ??
what is the house like for retaining heat??

sas

newbuild06 wrote:

hi sas


the house is 2500 sq ft and is a storey and a half

Apologies newbuild06, I should have read your initial post more carefully.

garyh3

What about these people. Seen them on some design program last wek. Built to order in Germany and they have it up in a week after the foundations.

Nice

http://www.huf-haus.de/en/


Garyh3

Do-more

newbuild06 wrote:

Hi do more
i have been onto riverview and am awaiting a quote,i have heard some very good reports about them.
What do you have around your frame is it blocks? if so how do you find this ??
what is the house like for retaining heat??

Yes NB06 I have 4" blocks around the frame, and find the house very easy to heat (it's about the same size as yours). My wife is Swedish and expects to have the house at 20 deg all winter so we probably use more oil than most, but it works out at about €1500 a year for heat and water (2 power showers a day ++)

Couldn't say enough good things about Riverview, for instance a mate of mine is a builder and gets his frames from Century, when he saw my frame he couldn't get over the strenght of it compared to the Century frame, kept telling me "jaysus there's a forest of trees in that frame" his neice was building shortly after me and he got her to get her frame from Riverview.

The only negative was the rather long lead time (victims of their own success) but these things always fluctuating so you might get lucky. If you are dealing with them and the delivery date is not to your liking, tell Garry you want the "John Lennon slot" he normally has a "makey uppy" customer in his schedule to buy himself some time in case of emergencies and will slot you in there if you say you really need to have the frame;)

Do-more

garyh3 wrote:

What about these people. Seen them on some design program last wek. Built to order in Germany and they have it up in a week after the foundations.

Nice

http://www.huf-haus.de/en/


Garyh3

Did you win the lotto Gary? Huf haus are "very" expensive and in any case you probably wouldn't get planning for their designs in 99% of sites in this country.

garyh3

Didnt win the lottery

I was just impressed with the designs... and they didnt say how expensive they really are. Hey if my Taxi driver can sell his Dub house for 1 mil (3 bed semi) the he can afford a HUF house.

Planning permission... Jeeesus have seen some of the designs that they are approving.. :eek: Makes no sense

Garh3

Do-more

garyh3 wrote:

Hey if my Taxi driver can sell his Dub house for 1 mil (3 bed semi) the he can afford a HUF house.

Now don't get me started on taxi drivers!! But seriously NB06 had already said that the Irish turnkey TF guys are too expensive for him, so what chance Huf?

garyh3 wrote:

Planning permission... Jeeesus have seen some of the designs that they are approving.. :eek: Makes no sense
Garyh3

Where? NB06 and I are in wonderfully progessive Westmeath, where it seems the planners want us all to live crammed together in the same bland concrete boxes! It's a hard job here to get a natural stone facade past them. Four years ago I had done a deal with a Finnish company, who wanted to start supplying the Irish market, to supply and erect a 2,500 sq. ft. turnkey TF for only €50,000 (about a quarter of the full price) as long as I let them show it to their prospective clients, it was a lot more mainstream in design than a Huf, but when I went in with drawings and photos to get the planners opinion, I was practically laughed out of the office! Needless to say the Finnish company turned tail and ran.

As for the Huf, my parents-in-law lived in one in Germany for nine years and their opinion was that it was not a particularly nice house to live in. Designed on the principle of "it doesn't matter if it works, it looks good" it was full of compromises for the sake of astetics and not geared to the practicalities of everyday life.

newbuild06

Hi do more

you are right there about the westmeath planners they are unbelieveable
but we wont get started on that.

Just a quick query about the house itself how do you find the internal walls for sturdiness ??
what are they like for hanging things on and what is the sound proofing like in the house ??

is there anything you would do differently with yours if you were to do it again??

any more info you think that might be worthwhile please forward on


thanks for the replys

Do-more

newbuild06 wrote:

Just a quick query about the house itself how do you find the internal walls for sturdiness ??
what are they like for hanging things on?

Fine on all fronts, no probs with hanging pictures etc. using standard picture hooks.

newbuild06 wrote:

and what is the sound proofing like in the house ??

I insulated the exterior walls with cellulose insulation (recycled newspaper) and used this also in all internal partitions. I used normal 150mm glassfibre insulation in the ground floor ceiling and the first floor ceiling and then 100mm glassfibre in the roof. (The attic has dormer trusses, but we didn't finish it out, just use it for storage, we ran up services so that it will be easy to convert if we ever feel the need to have more space.)
I also used fibreboard underlay with the wood floors upstairs.

When we designed the house we made sure that no two bedrooms have a common partition. They are all seperated from each other by en-suites, bathrooms or stairwells.

We haven't had any problems with noise, but then there are no teenagers in the house yet!

newbuild06 wrote:

is there anything you would do differently with yours if you were to do it again??
any more info you think that might be worthwhile please forward on

The basic design of the house is a 10m X 10m square with a 10m X 3.5m garage/utility (garage converted to playroom from day one) with a fifth bedroom and ensuite in the roofspace overhead, to one side.
This meant that we had to build a block wall between the two, so it would have been just as cheap to build a full two storeys 10m X 13.5m and we would have gained another room (if you understand what I am trying to say!)

If I was timberframing again I would probably seal it up better to ensure airtightness and would have used better quality windows and external doors.

Viking House

What was your heat cost last year with that build Do-more?
Just wordering how good the cellulose is at holding onto the heat?
Did your attic overheat at all this summer?

Do-more

Hi V H you will see up on post #13 I mentioned the heating costs. I can't say that I have kept an accurate record of oil bills but €1500 would be the max. quite often I only order €300 worth at a time. Last summer we were running the oil boiler for hot water during the summer also as our spark went awol without connecting up the immersion! Finally got him back (after 3 years!) to connect it up, so this years bills should be better.

House is very good at retaining heat except for some reason the utility room. Thought I checked it at the time but I always have the nigiling doubt that the guys blowing in the cellulose missed a panel! If anyone knows someone with a thermal imaging camera in the Midlands send him round to me!

No problem with overheating in the attic even this summer and in the winter you can certainly feel it much chillier than the house, so there is not much heat getting up to it through the ceiling.

While it should never happen, I suppose I always have the small fear that if the cellulose gets damp it will not work. What's you opinion?

Mellor

Do-more wrote:

While it should never happen, I suppose I always have the small fear that if the cellulose gets damp it will not work. What's you opinion?

IF the insulation gets damp, its proformance would be affected. But as you said this should not happen. Have you any reasons for concern?

Do-more

Mellor wrote:

IF the insulation gets damp, its proformance would be affected. But as you said this should not happen. Have you any reasons for concern?

None, other than the normal Irish weather, driving rain and gale force winds!;)

Viking House

Hi Do-more

I would be more concerned about the moisture getting into the wall from the inside than the outside as you mentioned something about airtightness in an earlier post.
If your building is a bit leaky then moist inside air could be getting into the insulation. If 10% moisture gets into your insulation you will lose 30% of the insulation values.
But cellulose will dry out again but it may slump to a lower level where the wall meets the roof.
If you have OSB and a membrane and a cavity on the outside there will be no problem with moisture from the outside.
Air moves from hot to cold so the air is moving outwards anyhow.
Consider HRV as security to extract the moist air before it goes into the wall.

VH

Do-more

Viking House wrote:

Hi Do-more

I would be more concerned about the moisture getting into the wall from the inside than the outside as you mentioned something about airtightness in an earlier post.
If your building is a bit leaky then moist inside air could be getting into the insulation. If 10% moisture gets into your insulation you will lose 30% of the insulation values.
But cellulose will dry out again but it may slump to a lower level where the wall meets the roof.
If you have OSB and a membrane and a cavity on the outside there will be no problem with moisture from the outside.
Air moves from hot to cold so the air is moving outwards anyhow.
Consider HRV as security to extract the moist air before it goes into the wall.

VH

My concern on airtightness is with air leaks around a Fakro window in the attic and a few whistling windows and front door seals that don't! Nothing that will directly effect the cellulose.

The wall construction is plasterboard - breather membrane - cellulose - plywood - breather membrane - cavity - 4" block. So I don't have any logical cause for concern, it's just an illogical fear of the damp Irish weather!

HRV was planned from day one and should finally be installed soon.

Viking House

Do-more wrote:

So I don't have any logical cause for concern, it's just an illogical fear of the damp Irish weather!

Damp Irish weather is commonly used as an excuse for bad building.
We can make hay in Ireland and can dry clothes outside, you can even dry clothes on a rainy day in your garage.
The dampness in our houses is coming from the inside, we breathe out water-vapour 20 times a minute and 1 litre of gas used for cooking releases 3 litres of water into the living area.

newbuild06

THanks guys
there is some really good information on here at the mo thanks all for taking the time to input your thoughts and opinions.

just another twist to my original post I was talking to a insulation rep and was asking him about what type of u values I could expect from a standard block build and having insulation in a cavity wall and then plasterboard insulation on the internal wall.
he told me that if i went with 60mm in the cavity wall and 25mm on the internal wall i could expect a u value close to 0.22 which seems quiet good to me?
Never mentioned anything about the attic or what type of windows and doors I was thinking of putting in

Has anyone any thought on this.

Fingalian

Hi
I don't mean to hijack your thread but I'm interested in what Viking House is saying about water vapour being created in the house. If you build a TF house and get it absolutely airtight by using a thermal image camera (and I think you you can pressure test it too?) where does the water vapour go? It would seem pretty pointless to stick a traditional vent in the wall...basically that is just a hole in the wall and I've seen them taped over to keep out draughts.
A TF builder was telling me that a way to overcome this is to use a 'Heat Exchanger'/ Heat Recovery System, but I did not understand the mechanics of it, does anybody have any experience of using these devices? Could you use it with a traditional oil heating system in a TF house?

Viking House

newbuild06 wrote:

he told me that if i went with 60mm in the cavity wall and 25mm on the internal wall i could expect a u value close to 0.22 which seems quiet good to me?

Hi newbuild

Thats a laboratory figure, the reality is much different when you take Coldbridging and Thermal looping into account.

Good luck with your project!

Viking House

Fingalian wrote:

A TF builder was telling me that a way to overcome this is to use a 'Heat Exchanger'/ Heat Recovery System, but I did not understand the mechanics of it, does anybody have any experience of using these devices? Could you use it with a traditional oil heating system in a TF house?

Hi Fingalin

You can use HRV with a traditional oil heating system in a TF house, get in at the design stage to plan where your pipe runs are.
Here is my two pence worth; http://www.viking-house.net/heat-recovery-ventilation