What Party Will You Join

Het-Field

With just under a year to go before the next Genral Election, party politics will be the order of the day for the next twelve months. With recruitment set to begin again (particularly in colleges around Ireland) in the coming months, which party would you join.

Ill get the ball rolling, im in the PD'S, AND I PLAN TO VOTE FOR THEM

nikolaitr

Either FG or PD.

oscarBravo

I'm far from convinced that this thread will add much to this forum, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt for now. At the very least, I'd ask anyone who says they're going to join/vote for a party to say why, and be prepared to debate their reasons in a civilised fashion.

Het-Field and nikolaitr, please lead the way by explaining your choices.

Ray777

The Socialist Party - because at the moment, they seem to be the only party in this country who genuinely give a damn about the working classes.

punky

Would consider joining the Greens. But will give Labour my second votes.
Wouldn't join the PDs if you held a gun to my head.

Het-Field

oscarBravo wrote:

I'm far from convinced that this thread will add much to this forum, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt for now. At the very least, I'd ask anyone who says they're going to join/vote for a party to say why, and be prepared to debate their reasons in a civilised fashion.

Het-Field and nikolaitr, please lead the way by explaining your choices.

Im in the PD'S for A FEW REASONS. THeir policies on economics. Low taxation, tax breaks, benefits for investment and their general neo lieral approach. When the PD'S were formed in the mid 1980s, Ireland was an economic basket case. Finna Fail were willing to let the economy go bust to keep them in government. Labour and Fine Gael were completley incompatible, and as a result the economy stagnated. When the PD'S formed they injected the idea of fisical rectitude with low taxation, which was fairly innovative at the time. Ehile in governemt they have kept Finna Fail in check, and have implemented a good neo liberal programme vwhich has caused the country to benefit greatly. Yesterday, Jeb Bush claimed that Florida (of the usa, which is supposidly the greatest economy in the world) could learn a thing or two from Ireland. The Celtic Tiger has a lot to do with the PD'S as they directed the Finna FAIL governemtn of the late 1980s how to do their economics, and tighten their belts (in an unhippocritical way, unlike Cj Haughey R.I.P

Furthermore they have introduced the minimum wage, and their ideas of regulations as opposed to blanket bans appealed to me.

The PDS have been in governent in times of prosperity, and serve a major purpose. Fine Gael will never have any coalition with FF and anything with Labour would be a failure. The PDS offer alternative to FF

Dirk Gently

I'm looking for a party with a realistic alternative to neo-liberalism as I see neo-liberalism as un-sustainable in the long run and promoting a race to the bottom to stay competitive, unfortunately though it looks like you have to be neo-liberal to attract investment as globalization currently promotes neo-liberalism over equality or any forms of fair trade.

To be honest I couldn’t see myself joining any of them. I would like to say the Labour party but in reality that would be giving my support to a FG lead government with Labour only making up the numbers and imo not really exerting much influence over policy.

I want to support a strong left social democratic party who has a clear strategy of promoting a more fair and equitable system as opposed to neo-liberalism and who has a strong emphasis on the environment and promoting peace at a European and world level. What that means basically is a party who comes up with a socialist type plan that can effectively sustain the economy and support public investment as opposed to privatise every service in sight. I would support a party who promised major investment in renewable energy and set forward a realistic plan to move away from being one of the most oil dependant countries in Europe. I would support a party who done the right thing internationally, and spoke out against all forms of terrorism, including state terrorism carried out by any rogue superpowers.

I see Labour as being too weak and at the other end the socialist party being too extreme. While I agree with the socialist party on all the issues they raise I don’t see them as having realistic solutions that wouldn’t cripple the country financially given the nature of globalisation. I am really crying out for Labour to take the lead and put forward an alternative to neo-liberalism that wont lead to a flight of capital from the country. The situation the country is in at the moment is very shaky to say the least, at the moment the circus is in town thanks to generous tax breaks attracting the multi-nationals to our shores but when the conditions are ripe in other countries who provide cheaper labour and cheaper costs they will leave and Ireland has nothing really to fall back on. The construction boom isn’t going to last forever, possibly not even another few years, so we could very well be left with less employment and higher inflation and huge mortgages we can’t afford all within the lifetime of the next government. If this is the case and FG/LAB are in power when things go pear shaped I hope people realise that it was an inevitable result of neo-liberalism and globalisation and don’t start blaming FG/LAB for messing things up and saying that everything was ok with FF/PD’S in power.

To conclude, I don’t know who if anyone to support and am not sure who even to vote for. Its kind of a formality that any new government will have to play the neo-liberal game and engage in a race for the bottom or else face the possibility of companies pulling out of Ireland which would be a disaster considering we have no strong home grown economy to fall back on. Labour is my closest political affiliation even though I regard them as been weak but I don’t know if I could stomach helping the blue shirts get into power on the back of Labour success, then again what’s the alternative except to endorse FF and the PDs again.

Diogenes

Het-Field wrote:

Im in the PD'S for A FEW REASONS. THeir policies on economics. Low taxation, tax breaks, benefits for investment and their general neo lieral approach. When the PD'S were formed in the mid 1980s, Ireland was an economic basket case. Finna Fail were willing to let the economy go bust to keep them in government. Labour and Fine Gael were completley incompatible, and as a result the economy stagnated. When the PD'S formed they injected the idea of fisical rectitude with low taxation, which was fairly innovative at the time.

There's two points here;

1. The economic boom has had as much to do with the FF Labour colation that preceded the current administration. Economic turn arounds don't happen over night and the PDs didn't just arrive poff their magic wand and turn the economy around overnight, the groundwork was set by the previous coaltion.

2. Lots of people want to take credit for the economic boom, and the PDs being in government deserve some credit. However during their time in office we've not had a single PD minister for finance, one wonders what economic wizzardy they possessed to evoke this economic miracle while never having direct control of the economy at any point.

Ehile in governemt they have kept Finna Fail in check, and have implemented a good neo liberal programme vwhich has caused the country to benefit greatly.

I do so love this argument, "vote PD because FF are such untrustworthy chancers, ye need us to keep an eye on them" If FF are so corrupt why on earth are you getting into government with them. Expose them for who they are and run them out of government. Oh and if you lie down with dogs you're going to get fleas. The PDs are not whiter than whiter.

Yesterday, Jeb Bush claimed that Florida (of the usa, which is supposidly the greatest economy in the world) could learn a thing or two from Ireland.

We could swap tips on how to cock up electiorial systems for start.
:rolleyes:

As for supposedly the greatest economy in the world......Biggest? Wealthy? GDP per captia? It fails on all of the above.

The Celtic Tiger has a lot to do with the PD'S as they directed the Finna FAIL governemtn of the late 1980s how to do their economics, and tighten their belts (in an unhippocritical way, unlike Cj Haughey R.I.P

So the PDs directed the economic miracle since before they were even in government???

Thats propaganda to the level you'd find about Joe Stalin back in the 40s USSR.

Furthermore they have introduced the minimum wage, and their ideas of regulations as opposed to blanket bans appealed to me.

Regulations to what? How about their spectaluar failure to introduce a garda ombudsman which was a promise last election

The PDS have been in governent in times of prosperity, and serve a major purpose. Fine Gael will never have any coalition with FF and anything with Labour would be a failure. The PDS offer alternative to FF

Why would anything with Labour be a failure? As mentioned the economy you hold so high is partly their legacy.

lostexpectation

I wonder what membership versus vote ratio is for each party, why join a party, cos you want to give em dues?

Villain

Umm join a party? I don't think I'd be up for joining any party at the moment, I don't know who I'll vote for next year yet. But it definitely won't be FF or the PD's they have had their chance and IMO wasted it. I'm not saying FG and Labour will do any better but I think they deserve chance and IMO any government thats lasts longer than 2 terms gets complacent and cocky.

I'll obviously need to see who the candidates are in my area and the manefesto's of the party's although they can contain more lies than anything else some of the time.

If I had to vote in the morning it would be for Labour and 2nd choice to FG.

Het-Field

Diogenes wrote:

There's two points here;

1. The economic boom has had as much to do with the FF Labour colation that preceded the current administration. Economic turn arounds don't happen over night and the PDs didn't just arrive poff their magic wand and turn the economy around overnight, the groundwork was set by the previous coaltion.


It as the PD'S who first advocated fiscal rectitude which Ray McSharry as Minister for finance. Finna fail adheared to that message, and for the first time, Ireland's economic fortunes took an upturn

2. Lots of people want to take credit for the economic boom, and the PDs being in government deserve some credit. However during their time in office we've not had a single PD minister for finance, one wonders what economic wizzardy they possessed to evoke this economic miracle while never having direct control of the economy at any point.

When Finna Fail are in Government, they consistently have placed their own people in that position, as Finance is probably the key area, and they have always like to control it, at least handing over positions like Minister for Justices ensures that a hard line will be taken. (McDowell, for all his minor cock ups has done an excellent job)


I do so love this argument, "vote PD because FF are such untrustworthy chancers, ye need us to keep an eye on them" If FF are so corrupt why on earth are you getting into government with them. Expose them for who they are and run them out of government. Oh and if you lie down with dogs you're going to get fleas. The PDs are not whiter than whiter.

Thats not the case at all. What the Progressive Democrats advocated was a two party government as opposed to a single party one. Single party Governemnts in Irleland since the 1950s have been notoriously dogmatic, and in more cases than not, they have failed to properly do their job. The PD'S offer a party with a similar line to Finna Fail, but they reduce the bad effects of a single party governemnt. One only has to look at Britain to see the nature of a single party Government. A FF PD coalition offers all the benefits of a coalition, unlike the Fine Gael/Labour propossal, which essentially sidelines Labour in a pathetic attempt to remove the current government, while failing to consider their differences in policies. Sure they cant even agree on what age they believe the age of consent should be



We could swap tips on how to cock up electiorial systems for start.
:rolleyes:

As for supposedly the greatest economy in the world......Biggest? Wealthy? GDP per captia? It fails on all of the above.




So the PDs directed the economic miracle since before they were even in government???

Thats propaganda to the level you'd find about Joe Stalin back in the 40s USSR.


They economic recovery only began in 1987, ytwo years after the PD'S came into existence


Regulations to what? How about their spectaluar failure to introduce a garda ombudsman which was a promise last election

Should be implemented by Christmas

I didnt say anything with the Labour Party would fail, i believe in the current climate a ff Labour coalition would fail

Why would anything with Labour be a failure? As mentioned the economy you hold so high is partly their legacy.

I didnt say anything with the Labour Party would fail, i believe in the current climate a ff Labour coalition would fail


Much of your argument is based on what you think iv said, and bull**** about propaganda. You clearly dislike the PD'S, but at least make a rational argument.

Some More argument is in the blue box

FF. The economy. The Peace Process.

The only other one I would countenance would be FG. Though would be suspicious as to how far up their agenda the North is.

mikemac

I will probably vote for our local Labour senator in the next election despite the fact my cousin is the local Fianna Fail TD.

I'm a member of Labour Youth but have started to stop attending meetings lately as I've started to disagree with a lot of what they do. The recent protest against Meteor supporting the visit of Jeb Bush as an example

Possibly I've become more conservative as I start to work full-time and am not a radical student anymore.

Not dragging this thread off topic but are there any internet questionaires that you can give your views on certain topics and you'll be shown the party that most accuratly reflects your views?

I remember using this before the last US Presidental election
http://www.politicalcompass.org/

oscarBravo

An open question to those who wouldn't join/vote for any party that currently exists: what would a party have to do in order to interest you in joining/voting for them?

Het-Field, no need to quote an entire post just to reply to a single point. [edit: I see you replied within the quote. That makes it all but impossible to distinguish your replies from the original points.]

Flex

oscarBravo wrote:

An open question to those who wouldn't join/vote for any party that currently exists: what would a party have to do in order to interest you in joining/voting for them?

I have no loyalty to any party (although I rather dislike FG and SF, it would take some serious lack of options to make me even consider voting for either of them). Id place the most importance on sorting out house prices for how Ill cast my vote in the next election. Ill be graduating from university in 2 years and Id really really REALLY like to be able to own a home in Dublin. Another thing Id like the government to do is stop paying for 3rd level fee's for students (except in cases were people are unable to afford them of course), more privatisation to reduce income tax. Just a couple of things off the top of my head

Dirk Gently

oscarBravo wrote:

An open question to those who wouldn't join/vote for any party that currently exists: what would a party have to do in order to interest you in joining/voting for them?

I thought I made some attempt in my previous post to explain why I feel uneasy about supporting the main parties. Basically I want a strong Labour party to either vote for or join, not necessarily strong in numbers, although that would obviously have to follow but strong in message and direction. I really want a stronger Labour party willing to talk about the nature of the global economy and put forward and promote aggressively a realistic alternative to neo-liberalism (if one exists that is realistic to achieve in Ireland). I think it would be futile to abandon neo-liberalism on our own so it would be necessary to be very active in influencing nations at European level and making a strong case for a more equitable system. I see it as necessary to promote peace, environmental and trade issues as strongly internationally as domestically and this requires a willingness to influence European politics and to support and promote like minded governments internationally.

I know it is highly unlikely that any of the parties will risk rocking the neo-liberal boat for fear of loss of investment, and I understand that, but I still think an alternative must be looked for internationally if we wish to avoid the situation we find ourselves in where we have to sell ourselves as cheaply as possible and accept rising costs while capping workers wages if we want to compete. I would like to see more Irish based industry to protect us from loosing jobs when multi-nationals pull out for cheaper locations and an aggressive approach to global environmental issues, also a government willing to speak out against un necessary war and un-fair trade dealings with poorer countries. Northern Ireland would also have to be high on any new governments agenda, with strong links and friendly relations established and maintained with our unionist neighbours. Unionists need to be made feel welcome and not suspicious of the republic if the conditions for power sharing and a move away from sectarianism are to be achieved. Solidarity and easing of unionist fears while promoting agendas which benefit all of the community and not just advancing either the nationalist or unionist demands. Let the national question take a back foot for a while and concentrate on getting the 6 counties working together with each other before forcing any kind of referendum on a united Ireland in as short a time as possible.

That leaves me in somewhat of a sticky situation, where by what I want to happen would require global attitudes to change and leave Ireland dis-advantaged should the changes only apply to this small island. It basically boils down to who do you think can paper over the cracks in neo-liberal Globalisation best with regards to Ireland when voting in the next election. The PD’s will attract business alright, but at what cost to society as they seek to maximize private profits and cut public investment in order to make us appear an attractive location to set up. That approach is only sustainable as long as we are seen as the best location for business to set up but when all the investment goes east we will be left with huge debt, high inflation and very little opportunity for work. I think the construction industry is carrying us a lot and putting off the inevitable crash only as long as construction is booming (which it appears it wont be for much longer). Hopefully over the course of the next year FG/LAB can stop holding hands and posing for joint photo opportunities and convince me that they have a clear direction and plan they intend to implement which will shield Ireland from economic down turn, instead of all the hot air and Bertie bashing that they like to moan about at the moment.

I’m open to suggestions by the way for who I should support although I really think the global situation dictates the choices made at national level so dispite what any party says they want to achieve I think they will be governed by outside conditions in what a national government can actually do, unless of course they can influence and work with other countries to achieve their goals with the help of like minded nations.

Het-Field

oscarBravo wrote:

An open question to those who wouldn't join/vote for any party that currently exists: what would a party have to do in order to interest you in joining/voting for them?

Het-Field, no need to quote an entire post just to reply to a single point. [edit: I see you replied within the quote. That makes it all but impossible to distinguish your replies from the original points.]

Thats my bad. Just read it. Or alternatively it was the only thing you had a grip about

Victor

How about "all of the above"?

Sgt. Sensible

Victor wrote:

How about "all of the above"?

I don't think you can join a party if you're already a member of another one. At least, this was the case when I tried to join the PD's (for a laugh).

There is no one for me to vote for or join.

FF - Corrupt, inept, backward.
FG - Probably corrupt, inept, backward.
Lab - Inept, backward, pandering to xenophobia last I heard.
PDs - Genuinely creepy right wing lunatic fringe.
SF - Genuinely creepy vaguely left wing lunatic fringe.
Greens - Liberal lifestylists.
SP - I'd never vote for them, but Higgins is the only opposition in the Dail.

Amongst other things, I'd like to see a complete overhaul of the education system, (I am struck by how uneducated and politically illiterate people in Ireland are compared to say Sweden or here in Germany) and something done about housing, time to go high density, shoot the land speculators.

Diogenes

Het-Field wrote:

Thats my bad. Just read it. Or alternatively it was the only thing you had a grip about

Would you mind re editing it then? It's difficult to respond to it without you doing so.

Diogenes

Okay I'll try

It as the PD'S who first advocated fiscal rectitude which Ray McSharry as Minister for finance. Finna fail adheared to that message, and for the first time, Ireland's economic fortunes took an upturn

Lots of political parties have recommended belt tightening over the years. Where's your evidence that the PDs policies directly infulenced economic thinking.

When Finna Fail are in Government, they consistently have placed their own people in that position, as Finance is probably the key area, and they have always like to control it,

I'm sorry in one post you're claiming it's PDs economic policy that has created the celtic tiger, and in another you're now saying that FF control the purse strings?!? Are you saying that Harney directs the economy while running the department of health? Seriously what evidence do you offer that the PDs are the financial brains behind our economy. You can claim it was PD policy and state that, but thats not fact, c'mon give us some examples backed up with links which show PD economic foresight.

at least handing over positions like Minister for Justices ensures that a hard line will be taken. (McDowell, for all his minor cock ups has done an excellent job)

Hmmm McDowell has made some major cockups not least of which failing to make significant arrests a year and a half after he stated assuredly who commited the NI bank raid. While I don't doubt the IRA did it, I doubt a Minister for justice who makes a claim about someone's criminal status and nearly two years late cannot make serious arrests.

Some of this lies with the Garda and AJ but overall responsibility is with McDowell.

Thats not the case at all. What the Progressive Democrats advocated was a two party government as opposed to a single party one. Single party Governemnts in Irleland since the 1950s have been notoriously dogmatic, and in more cases than not, they have failed to properly do their job.

Thats absurd are you saying the political social or economic landscape of Ireland in 2006 resembles Ireland in 1956?

The PD'S offer a party with a similar line to Finna Fail, but they reduce the bad effects of a single party governemnt. One only has to look at Britain to see the nature of a single party Government.

Specifics please. Furthermore are you really suggesting that labour wouldn't be in the middle of cash for pierage and a variety of other scandals if they'd have been in power due to a minority government supported by the lib dems?

Hang on we did see what happened when a government had a minority leadership supported by a small party, the Tories final days under major, with a minority control over paraliament supported by the Unionists. And oh look a party riddled by corruption with personal agendas being put forward over the greater good of the peace process.

Whoa.....Dude like total deja vu.......

A FF PD coalition offers all the benefits of a coalition, unlike the Fine Gael/Labour propossal, which essentially sidelines Labour in a pathetic attempt to remove the current government,

A FG/labour coalition would resemble an actual balance, as it is the PDs are a minority shareholder. How would labour be sidelined in a coalition in which it has parity. If the PDs disagreed with a government bill they could (concvieably) be sidelined.

while failing to consider their differences in policies. Sure they cant even agree on what age they believe the age of consent should be

Thats one very minor issue.

They economic recovery only began in 1987, ytwo years after the PD'S came into existence

Thats a minor example one could argue the economy miracle was due to Italia 90 because of the feel good factor post world cup. Just because a party happened to come into existance around the time of a politcal event it doesn't mean they directly infulenced it.

Regulations to what? How about their spectaluar failure to introduce a garda ombudsman which was a promise last election

Should be implemented by Christmas

"Should be" being the opportive words, the ombudsman has been pushed back and back and back, and stripped of powers that are available to the NI ombudsman. I'm highly dubious of this ombudsman's effectivity, and it will conviently be in place in time for the next election but without a decent timespan for the electorate to judge it's effectiveness.

I didnt say anything with the Labour Party would fail, i believe in the current climate a ff Labour coalition would fail

But why would it fail? Give a reason man. Reading Fergus Finlan's Snakes and Ladders you get a clear picture that a the FF Labour coalition did work, and labour got punished none the less for lying with dogs.

Much of your argument is based on what you think iv said, and bull**** about propaganda. You clearly dislike the PD'S, but at least make a rational argument.

I dislike the PDs for a variety of reasons. I loathe McDowell's policies, but frankly most of all I dislike their political opportuntism. Telling us FF aren't trustworthy enough to be in power, unless they get their half dozen TDs in their in coalition in there as well. I'm sorry if a political party that doesn't deserve power don't go into power with them Don't tell them the electorate should vote for the pair of yis cause "you'll keep an eye on them" It's the most base cynicial playing to lowest denominator kinda politics there is, and it sums up what the PDs represent to me. Theres not a shred of idealism about them.

Sgt. Sensible

Het-Field wrote:

Im in the PD'S for A FEW REASONS. THeir policies on economics. Low taxation, tax breaks, benefits for investment and their general neo lieral approach. When the PD'S were formed in the mid 1980s, Ireland was an economic basket case.

What do you think of Jacques Delors and the billions in structural funds he funnelled into Ireland between 1989 and 1998. I assume that PDs are opposed to heavy state intervention of that kind.

Jackie laughlin

I'm a socialist; a Marxist, if you like. There is therefore no option for me but to join and vote Labour. I realise that everyone in the Party is not socialist but it does attract most Irish socialists.

Labour too needs to heed the axiom: "Be radical or redundant". It needs to advance the policies which no other party could advance. This would mean a loss of seats. However, it might still mean holding the balance of power but with more radical demands.

In the short term, perhaps Pat Rabbite is right to call for a change of government because the present one is tired and inefficient. However, while that may be his public duty right now, in the longer term his duty is to offer a vision of a more equal Ireland.

I find neo-liberalism, extreme, unnecessary, inegalitarian, inneffective, inefficient or downright wasteful, childish and now in decline worldwide. Its purpose is to transfer wealth to the wealthy and it has achieved this on a worldwide scale while reducing growth to less than one third of its level 30 years ago.

Remember Dick spring's excellent definition of a socialist: "Someone who really does believe in a MIXED economy."

Hotblack Desiato

I'm legally barred from joining any political party... our democracy is circumscribed by who your employer is.

lostexpectation

ninja900 wrote:

I'm legally barred from joining any political party... our democracy is circumscribed by who your employer is.

so who do civil servants vote for?

JayRoc

Jackie laughlin wrote:

There is therefore no option for me but to join and vote Labour. I realise that everyone in the Party is not socialist but it does attract most Irish socialists.

Labour too needs to heed the axiom: "Be radical or redundant". .."

Why do you feel that to be radical one must join labour?
What about the the Sure Fire boys?
There are other alternatives, really...

joebhoy1916

There not liked here but my party would be Sinn Fein people here hate them but I love them for what they had done! I take a different point of view so please dont start argueing only giving my say! But no joking I know there not liked but they will be a major party they are now but there are rumours going around it could be FF/SF in goverment to be honest I think they would do well you never know till you try! Maybe all of them are exIRA or IRA but no one can say for sure but I honestly believe Gerry Adams should be giving credit for getting the IRA to decommission, people said years ago that would never happen and it has and to be honest he is a rolemodel to me and to alot of other people!

Jackie laughlin

Jayroc,
Radicalism is not a political perspective. What I meant was that there is little point in the long term in Labour moving to the centre as it removes the very reason for voting Labour and leaves socialists unrepresented. Similarly, there is no point in the PDs moving to the centre and leaving neo-liberals unrepresented. (Yes, I accept that as the current dominant orthodoxy, neo-liberalism is well represented by centrist/populist parties.)

Red Alert

I wouldn't touch the PD's with a bargepole:

• They are the political wing of IBEC. Fair enough IBEC aren't all bad, but the PD's give them a carte blanche mouthpiece in the dail.
• ... therefore the PD's have one agenda: privatisation. They would privatise the county councils, sell off CIE and yet reinforce the de-facto monopoly that many newly-privatised industries enjoy
• the health service is a mess. under mary harney's rule, SVUH have appointed a director of diversity and cosmetically upgraded the elevators, whilst elderly people die in undignified hallways
• Michael mc dowell is determined to put in this press council which will gag the press at the behest of corrupt politicians. would liam lawlor or ray burke have been suitably investigated by the media if this was in place?

FG or Labour.

JayRoc

Red Alert wrote:

FG or Labour.

Good god, man.....Have things gotten that bad?

Hotblack Desiato

lostexpectation wrote:

so who do civil servants vote for?

By all accounts it'll be ABP (anyone but Parlon)