Death

muesli_offire

Its going to happen to us all, right?

But is there any point in philosophizing about death? Can we ever really gain an understanding of it?

Is death that much of a problem anyway?

Nalz

We're born.
We live
We adapt to surroundings and scenarios
We die according/depending to things that effect those surroundings and scenarios
.
.
.
.
.
If I were to continue from there, wouldnt I be completely lying

nobody knows until we know. and we dont know so kinder bueno

Pocari Sweat

It keeps the population figures a bit trimmer and gives employment to undertakers and vicars, so it ain't all bad. Its all in the timing.

muesli_offire

Originally posted by Pocari Sweat
It keeps the population figures a bit trimmer and gives employment

So would you be in favour of more death or less death right now?

Originally posted by Pocari Sweat
Its all in the timing.

Originally posted by Trilla
nobody knows until we know.

But when do we know death? When we die? But then we're dead, no?

Is it just something thats always there like a speck on the horizon never getting any closer and then the sun goes down?

Or when we die are we frozen in the instant of death forever? Or does the instant pass? Or is it even an instant? Do we ever actually die?

Pocari Sweat

An average smattering of death, spread about evenly enough, is alright, but not too much of course.

Also if you think your conscious life is a biological one and yer brain organ is processing all the thought and feeling stimulations that we appreciate life with through sight and hearing, touch and smell and tatse, and all these senses are linked and controlled by our own brains, with all the individual ways we are able to experience these things because of our particular brains, and then you kick the bucket, and your brain dies and it starts to rot in the ground, with all the brain cells that were finely balanced and structured to send all those signals in a particular way to think and feel in a certain way all turned to manure, then, no we can't reproduce that.

If you believed in Santa past the age of 12, maybe you are a bit open to the suggestion we are going to live on, but lets face it, our brains are finely engineered supercomputers and when they become manure or are incinerated, there aint going to be that concious interaction that we had with life, because, firstly you ain't going to be living life, you will be in a box, and secondly, yer brain is gonna be like custard, not doing what it used to do, so just make the most of life.

The nearest science fiction thing we can do, is time travel. Forward of course, a day at a time. Or if you are in a coma for 20 years, you could sort of subconciously time travel to 2026, and wake up to find the world has progressed with flying cars and stuff, that would be a crack? Maybe not.

18AD

I don't think we can know what happens until it happens. If we do just cease to function at death then I guess we will never know.

Pocari Sweat

More to do with wishful thinking and denial of the inevitable.

DadaKopf

Death ultimately colours all experiences, and, while embracing it in its fullness can help, it's also depressing. But ignoring it ultimately means you ignore the meaning of life.

Death drives meaning. Meaning is, IMO, the most important thing for every human being.

In a sense, all philosophising is about death.

Read Heidegger or something.

FromFarEast

The chief reason why we cant know what actually exists is we are human beings,
and death is the only way we become something but human beings.
So I'm pretty sure that death is very hopeful for every philosopher.

RedPlanet

Rosencrantz: Whatever became of the moment when one first knew about death? There must have been one. A moment. In childhood. When it first occured to you that you don't go on forever. Must have been shattering. Stamped into one's memory. And yet, I can't remember it. It never occured to me at all. We must be born with an intuition of mortality. Before we know the word for it. Before we know that there are words. Out we come, bloodied and squawling, with the knowledge that for all the points of the compass, theres only one direction. And time is its only measure.

Acid_Violet

RedPlanet wrote:

Rosencrantz: We must be born with an intuition of mortality.QUOTE]

I think that that has been found in animals, that they like to walk off by themselves to die, so death is instinctively sensed by us initially. When we consciously perceive it, we can form opinions on it. Yet, I think we must find it hard to comprehend how all life can just fizzle out of some-one. So we try to comprehend it in our own way by believing that there is more to it and that it consists of something we partially know. I believe that's pretty much how we drew up the concept of eternal life.

No-one really knows what's the deal with death, but our ignorance doesn't give validation to speculations of something more to death. Yet, no scientific research has been carried out into death, so we can't know anything factual really. Despite the two co-existing, there's more point in thinking about life then about death in my opinion.

adm

I always liked pascals wager which states basically that you should
believe in god , since , if you die - and god exists , then you're
sorted and if god does not exist then you'll never know
you were wrong.

Unfortunately i just can't do it.

I'm actually terrified of death.I also suffer from depression and
i've heard the two are often linked - not sure what that means.
A new thread entitled 'Fear of death' might be interesting

Zillah

Death is one of the primary methods employed for evolution. Without death there are no generations, without generations there is no diversity and without diversity there is no evolution.

Playboy

Would people here like to experience the moment of death or would they like to pass away in their sleep? I'm surprised that a lot of people I talk to would rather pass away away in their sleep thus avoiding the experience. Tbh I am shocked by this. I cant understand why people would want to avoid probably the most intense experience of their lives. We are meant to die and in the process of dying there is something to be learned that shouldnt be avoided.

Scigaithris

Is death finite or merely a milestone along a continuum?

unityofsaints

Playboy wrote:

Would people here like to experience the moment of death or would they like to pass away in their sleep? I'm surprised that a lot of people I talk to would rather pass away away in their sleep thus avoiding the experience. Tbh I am shocked by this. I cant understand why people would want to avoid probably the most intense experience of their lives. We are meant to die and in the process of dying there is something to be learned that shouldnt be avoided.

Completely agree, ffs I mean we're never going to experience pain again so why bother avoiding the last surge of pain? Doesn't really make sense to me.

renedescartes

Surely the real issue here is that at any instant we are experiencing death. What we think is life is an illusion and the death we are talking of is realisation of this illusion. On a physical level the body is dying all the time, replacing itself every few years. Where we see life is but a make believe, the real secret is to live in the instant (read Eckhart Tolle)

18AD

renedescartes wrote:

What we think is life is an illusion and the death we are talking of is realisation of this illusion.

What do we think life is? And how is that an illusion?

I've been thinking about that myself for the past while. From my own scientific point of view we are all made of smaller and smaller bits, and the further you go you eventually get to atoms and elements etc... which are technically lifeless material. So we are already dead in this sense, and when we die the matter will return to the general scientific view of being dead.

Or, is life an illusion, as we can't experience life. We can only experience experience. Through our brains things become real. Otherwise there is nothing. But then there is the dualistic point with this argument. That our brains see the outside world and "colour it in" according to our each individual reality. So there is a basic reality and an experienced one.

Or, I'm way off the mark.

aidan24326

Rosencrantz: Whatever became of the moment when one first knew about death? There must have been one. A moment. In childhood. When it first occured to you that you don't go on forever. Must have been shattering. Stamped into one's memory. And yet, I can't remember it. It never occured to me at all.- RedPlanet

Interesting point. The moment we realise our own mortality really ought to be stamped into one's memory (or so you'd imagine). I also have no recollection of any such moment, which is a little strange given the overwhelming importance of such a realisation. Although having been brought up a catholic I got all of the eternal life in heaven stuff from early school age so I guess that softened the blow a bit. I'm not sure at what point exactly I rejected that idea, it seemed to be more a gradual realisation.

I'm actually terrified of death.I also suffer from depression and
i've heard the two are often linked - not sure what that means.
A new thread entitled 'Fear of death' might be interesting -adm

What are you terrified of? If you don't believe in an afterlife, and judging by your post I'd say you don't, then there really isn't much to fear. It isn't nice to think that 100 years from now we'll all be gone and forgotten, probably forever. But if death is an end then you'll be completely unaware of it anyway. Just an endless dreamless sleep. Just like all those billions of years before you were born. But fear of death is actually the most irrational of all our fears, as it is the fear of what is overwhelmingly likely to be absolutely nothing.


Would people here like to experience the moment of death or would they like to pass away in their sleep? I'm surprised that a lot of people I talk to would rather pass away away in their sleep thus avoiding the experience. Tbh I am shocked by this. I cant understand why people would want to avoid probably the most intense experience of their lives.-Playboy

I agree. I'd hate to die in my sleep and be completely unaware. Sod that. However, you are not going to experience 'the moment of death' one way or the other. You don't experience the moment of falling asleep, it just happens unknown to you, and I'd expect the moment you lose consciousness for the very last time will be the same. What you may experience is the time leading up to it, be that hours, minutes or whatever, depending on how you die.

What do we think life is? And how is that an illusion?
I've been thinking about that myself for the past while. From my own scientific point of view we are all made of smaller and smaller bits, and the further you go you eventually get to atoms and elements etc... which are technically lifeless material. So we are already dead in this sense, and when we die the matter will return to the general scientific view of being dead.
-18AD

The atoms and molecules in your body have arranged themselves into an extraordinarily complex system with the result of you 'being alive' coming about as an 'emergent' phenomenon at a different level of description. After you die your constituent molecules/atoms (at time of death) will carry on their merry way and find a new home for themslves. Some of them will help to amimate another creature some day.


Or, is life an illusion, as we can't experience life. We can only experience experience. Through our brains things become real. Otherwise there is nothing. But then there is the dualistic point with this argument. That our brains see the outside world and "colour it in" according to our each individual reality. So there is a basic reality and an experienced one.


'Experiencing the experience' is life. That's all we know. There's no illusion as such. Our brain constructs a model of our environment based on the information inputted through our five senses and the model is limited to that amount of raw information. That's what is 'real' as far as we are concerned. I would suggest that there is no 'absolute reality', again it's a case of different levels of description.

_patchouli

muesli_offire wrote:

But is there any point in philosophizing about death? Can we ever really gain an understanding of it?

I think it's more a case of gaining an acceptence and rationale for it than an "understanding".
To echo what Dadakopf posted, it's what gives life meaning.

Redplanet wrote:

Rosencrantz: Whatever became of the moment when one first knew about death? There must have been one. A moment. In childhood. When it first occured to you that you don't go on forever. Must have been shattering. Stamped into one's memory. And yet, I can't remember it. It never occured to me at all. We must be born with an intuition of mortality...

I can actually remember that moment of becoming aware(and yes it was shattering)... but maybe I'm just one of the new souls or something!

Playboy wrote:

I'm surprised that a lot of people I talk to would rather pass away away in their sleep thus avoiding the experience. Tbh I am shocked by this. I cant understand why people would want to avoid probably the most intense experience of their lives. We are meant to die and in the process of dying there is something to be learned that shouldnt be avoided.

...but what is the point of " experience" and "learning" here?
Surely the very essence of what is "experience"(and "learning") is that it serves as roadmap etc for life.
To what end does it matter whether or not one "experiences" death?
Given the choice I would ( like most people ?) opt to go quietly in my sleep.

Acid Violet wrote:

I think that that has been found in animals, that they like to walk off by themselves to die....

I find this quite a natural, understandable instinct: to want to die alone.
I think also, given the choice, for a few reasons, I would rather die alone(but I might change my mind on this in the future). I would be interested to hear people's thoughts on this(if it's not OT).

enda1

Well I believe that as someone above said, life is just an illusion. Add enough complexity to a system and it will appear random (alive).

I still believe that a system could be developed that is equal (in mind) to humans. I think that it could be envisaged that a method for transferring a persons consciousness to this blank mind could be developed. Imagine creating a duplicate of yourself. Who would have the right to life? Imagine you were terminaly ill. Shouild it happen when your asleep? You would still end up dying though and you would not be 'living' this new life. Why should you want this new entity to live you mind.

Weird i think. so i think sleeping a dreamless sleep, ie. awaking the next morning with no memory of what happened is the same as having been dead. You could kill that person and put them in the machine and then 'wake' the machine up and they'd be none the wiser except for their new body of course.

Any thoughts on this? by the way, when you're dead, sin é. Nothing.

Scigaithris

muesli_offire wrote:

But is there any point in philosophizing about death?

Why not? We amuse ourselves with philosophies of life, why not death?

muesli_offire

Originally Posted by scigaithris:

Originally Posted by muesli_offire
But is there any point in philosophizing about death?

Why not? We amuse ourselves with philosophies of life, why not death?

Good question.