European Athletes at a disadvantage

GreenDoor

ecksor wrote:

It's not a question of being PC, it's a question of saying what you mean. Paula Radcliffe is not an Irish athlete but she was your only specific example in the first post. You seem to equate race with nationality but the reality is more complex than that.

I think your reading it from a point of view that it wasn't intended.

ecksor wrote:

This isn't about being PC or not, it's about the argument making sense. If a freakishly talented 14yo 100m runner turns up in Kerry next week then we're not doing him or her any good at all by pointing out that Irish people haven't traditionally done well at that event. He / she is either talented enough or not. The key thing is to discover and develop individuals.

Don't get me wrong. I'm certainly not saying people shouldn't give everything a go. What I'm saying is more money should be put into sports that suits Irish athletes. This will increase the chances of winning medals.

ecksor

GreenDoor wrote:

I think your reading it from a point of view that it wasn't intended.

Well, if you start off by talking about a broad european issue and then narrow it down to Irish athletes (despite acknowledging that 'european' is very broad) then you'll have to be prepared for people drawing their own conclusions. Feel free to clarify at any point.

Don't get me wrong. I'm certainly not saying people shouldn't give everything a go. What I'm saying is more money should be put into sports that suits Irish athletes. This will increase the chances of winning medals.

Do you think there are athletics events which are overflowing with money in Ireland?

thirtyfoot

Mad Finn wrote:

Curiously, soccer is the one game where race or size doesn't seem to matter at all. Look at the truly great players of the last 50 years.

I'd argue that soccer is one sport where size does matter. The beauty of athletics or rugby is that any size can participate, the same cannot be said of soccer. If you are 5ft 10 and 18 stone, you can be an elite thrower or in the front row in rugby, yet in soccer you'd be in the stand eating pies if you were built like that.

Rugby probably has the widest spectrum of body types in any team sport much more so than soccer, athletics is the same.

GreenDoor

ecksor wrote:

Well, if you start off by talking about a broad european issue and then narrow it down to Irish athletes (despite acknowledging that 'european' is very broad) then you'll have to be prepared for people drawing their own conclusions. Feel free to clarify at any point.

Draw your own conclusions so. :rolleyes:

Do you think there are athletics events which are overflowing with money in Ireland?

Thats the point I was making!

ecksor

Well, one specific suggestion you made about funding is that swimming should get more than running. If you agree that athletics is not getting much money to begin with then I'm confused about what you think the correct implication for your theory is in terms of athletics events which should presumably be the focus of this thread.

GreenDoor

ecksor wrote:

Well, one specific suggestion you made about funding is that swimming should get more than running. If you agree that athletics is not getting much money to begin with then I'm confused about what you think the correct implication for your theory is in terms of athletics events which should presumably be the focus of this thread.

Anything that helps Irish athletes win more. Thats the whole point of the thread. I started the thread because it's an interesting subject that isn't discussed at all because people fear being called racist (by a tiny minority). Your the only one who seems to have a problem with this thread.

Most people find it informative and interesting but your picking faults where there are none.

ecksor

If I had an actual problem with the thread then the thread wouldn't be here. I'm picking faults where I see faults. I've explained at length where I see flaws in the logic of some arguments here. Feel free to argue your case.

For example, I ask you what you think the implications of your theory is and you say "anything that helps Irish athletes win more". Does that mean that you're not sure yet if it actually has implications or if we should just discuss it at length to see if it does have implications? If the latter, then I'm offering reasons why I don't see it as a productive line of investigation.

I think you're talking about a lot of stuff on the basis "sure, everyone knows that" whereas I'm arguing that the development of an elite athlete is about more than simple body types. I don't think I've actually said you were wrong at any point here. I don't know if you're right or wrong. All I'm offering are counterexamples to your arguments to show why I think they aren't convincing or useful.

GreenDoor

I've explained the reason for starting the thread. If Irish athletes had a better chance of winning in a particular sport than why not put more resources into that sport.

I know that not everybody is the same and I'm generalising but being realistic is another way to describe it.

Look at the recent success of the Irish rowing team. Another example of a sport that suits Irish athlete's. What I'm saying is this sport should be encouraged more than sprinting for example.

ecksor

Rowing and swimming, the only two sports you've mentioned as being worthy of funding, aren't on even on topic on this forum.

Ok, so you started the thread to somehow help Irish athletes in their chances of winning. The plan looks like this apparently:

1. Discuss apparent shortcomings of Irish athletes.
2. Fund sports where these shortcomings aren't so apparent (preferably non-athletic sports).
3. Success!

GreenDoor wrote:

I know that not everybody is the same and I'm generalising but being realistic is another way to describe it.

Instead of claiming that you are realistic, please answer my arguments on this thread.

GreenDoor wrote:

What I'm saying is this sport should be encouraged more than sprinting for example.

How is the funding being given to Rowing relevant to the Athletics forum? Again I ask you, do you think there are athletics events in this country that are being over-funded?

Why should sprinting not be encouraged? Actually, let me be more specific. What is your evidence for suggesting that Irish people are somehow not suited to sprinting?

thirtyfoot

GreenDoor wrote:

Look at the recent success of the Irish rowing team. Another example of a sport that suits Irish athlete's. What I'm saying is this sport should be encouraged more than sprinting for example.

You sound like Pat Hickey. Irish sprinters aren't supported, DOR is on 12k, Joanne Cuddihy on 5k. You'd get more on the dole.

air

On the subject of African long distance running, in the book "Running for Triathletes" by Ken Mierke, he mentions extensive physiological testing that took place on elite european and african distance runners at one point. The conclusion of the tests IIRC was that the Europeans and Africans were practically identical in terms of aerobic capacity, VO2 max and all other quantifiiable physical attributes but that the running economy of the Africans was something like 8 -10 percent better than the europeans.
This was put down to their lifestyle which typically involved longer distances at a younger age, thus developing an efficient footstrike etc which was then further honed as they became athletes.

ecksor

That's bonkers. I didn't realise it was possible to have that much discrepancy between running styles in terms of efficiency amongst elite athletes. Did they have any comments to make upon how much this could be improved by drills or specific training?

air

Thats actually a primary theme of the book, he has another one called "Evolution Running" I think where the whole book is dedicated to running technique. In the triathlon book, the first 50 pages or so cover technique - body position, foot strike and turnover rate etc, the rest of the book covers training and preparation etc.
Anyway the specifics of the books are a bit OT, pm me if you want any further info.

BTW to quote the book directly:
"No doubt, these athletes are extraordinarily gifted and extraordinarily fit, but so are the other professional runners they beat so easily, what sets the great african runners apart is that they are more efficient than their competitors. They run faster without expending more energy. Many experts in running economy agree that running barefoot through childhood contributes significantly to the extraordinary success of these athletes."

GreenDoor

ecksor wrote:

Rowing and swimming, the only two sports you've mentioned as being worthy of funding, aren't on even on topic on this forum.

Ok, so you started the thread to somehow help Irish athletes in their chances of winning. The plan looks like this apparently:

1. Discuss apparent shortcomings of Irish athletes.
2. Fund sports where these shortcomings aren't so apparent (preferably non-athletic sports).
3. Success!

1. You see it as shortcomings but I'm showing where Irish athletes' strengths are.
2. Fund sports that suit Irish athetes best. Whats wrong with that? I'm not saying do away with sprinting but only give grants to sprinters who can show medal winning potential.
3. More success than we have now, guarenteed!

Again I ask you, do you think there are athletics events in this country that are being over-funded?

I think sport is underfunded in general.

Why should sprinting not be encouraged? Actually, let me be more specific. What is your evidence for suggesting that Irish people are somehow not suited to sprinting?

I quoted an Anthropologist. It's well known in anthropology that every race has it's strengths/weaknesses. All the fastest men in the world are black and all the strongest men in the world are white. This is no coincedence and backs up the anthropologists.

GreenDoor

air wrote:

BTW to quote the book directly:
"No doubt, these athletes are extraordinarily gifted and extraordinarily fit, but so are the other professional runners they beat so easily, what sets the great african runners apart is that they are more efficient than their competitors. They run faster without expending more energy. Many experts in running economy agree that running barefoot through childhood contributes significantly to the extraordinary success of these athletes."

"Experts"? I don't think so. They are saying that running barefoot in childhood makes you run faster which is stupid.

The real reason (so simple) which I've explained is because of the bone structure around the hip area. The Arficans have narrower hips and are angled straighter. Thats why they need less energy to run compared to whites.

ecksor

GreenDoor wrote:

1. You see it as shortcomings but I'm showing where Irish athletes' strengths are.
2. Fund sports that suit Irish athetes best. Whats wrong with that? I'm not saying do away with sprinting but only give grants to sprinters who can show medal winning potential.
3. More success than we have now, guarenteed!

In order:
1. I haven't claimed to see any inherent strengths or shortcomings, you have. I'm merely trying to say what seems to be your "plan" for this thread.
2. In principle, it depends upon your point of view of what funding should be for, but without going down that road I still don't accept that you've shown that any particular sport does or does not suit Irish athletes.
3. I'm not convinced.

I think sport is underfunded in general.

In that case then even if you are correct then identifying more suitable sports for Irish athletes is beside the point since NOBODY is getting enough money. There is no spare money in any allegedly less suitable sports, so identifying them isn't going to free up any more money. So, I still don't see how this thread / discussion helps Irish sports people to win more medals.

I quoted an Anthropologist. It's well known in anthropology that every race has it's strengths/weaknesses. All the fastest men in the world are black and all the strongest men in the world are white. This is no coincedence and backs up the anthropologists.

Yes, but why are the fastest men in the world black? See my earlier post about generalising from statements about a race to the elite sportspeople from any given race. Do you think that anthropologists are claiming that russians are better chess players due to genetics or culture (if they're expressing an opinion at all)? This does not answer the question I asked.

Please take account in your reply the sudden dramatic improvement of sprint performances in Ireland in the last 10 years, the coaching structures within BLE/AAI and changing attitudes towards sprint events in Ireland in that time.

Greendoor wrote:

"Experts"? I don't think so. They are saying that running barefoot in childhood makes you run faster which is stupid.

Explain please. In sprint events in particular, although the same would apply to distance events, the reactiveness of the foot to the ground is dependent upon the strength of the muscles in the foot. Each millisecond you can shave from a given foot contact removes a lot from your overall sprint time. From personal experience I know that running a couple of miles cross country will exercise muscles you never even knew you had in your foot if you're used to just using modern running shoes.

GreenDoor

ecksor wrote:

Please take account in your reply the sudden dramatic improvement of sprint performances in Ireland in the last 10 years, the coaching structures within BLE/AAI and changing attitudes towards sprint events in Ireland in that time.

But are they in the same league as African sprinters? This is the point i'm making.

Explain please. In sprint events in particular, although the same would apply to distance events, the reactiveness of the foot to the ground is dependent upon the strength of the muscles in the foot. Each millisecond you can shave from a given foot contact removes a lot from your overall sprint time. From personal experience I know that running a couple of miles cross country will exercise muscles you never even knew you had in your foot if you're used to just using modern running shoes.

Why do athletes wear footwear when they run so?

Do you agree that race plays a big part in sporting success? I look at what anthropologists say and they're usually right.

Take the 2 main European types. Cro-magnon of which we irish are mostly (and the best examples of cro-magnon in europe) and Nordid of which the purest are in central Sweden. The famous anthropologist Carleton Coon said that Cro-magnon man was more powerfully built than the thinner Nordids. This could explain why Sweden produces so many good high jumpers. Their lighter frames and longer limbs gives them an advantage there. It could also explain why Britian have a really good rowing record. Powerful upperbody with a high lung capacity. The Irish are more cro-magnon than the English so theres no reason we shouldn't win medals if rowing became popular here.

ecksor

GreenDoor wrote:

But are they in the same league as African sprinters? This is the point i'm making.

Why are you consistently failing to answer my questions?

WHY are elite african sprinters better? Please re-read my question above.

Why do athletes wear footwear when they run so?

What? Please think about what you're saying. Most sprinters lift weights to strenghten various parts of their body but they don't usually do their track sessions or races carrying weights. Does that mean that weights don't help with strengthwork?

Running barefoot strengthens the foot. A better question is why do so many people in this part of the world seem to have gait problems?

Do you agree that race plays a big part in sporting success? I look at what anthropologists say and they're usually right.

It appears to play a part, yes. However, you haven't shown one consistent argument for why this is the case and until you do then I don't accept that it should direct funding for sports in Ireland or any other country.

Take the 2 main European types. Cro-magnon of which we irish are mostly (and the best examples of cro-magnon in europe) and Nordid of which the purest are in central Sweden. The famous anthropologist Carleton Coon said that Cro-magnon man was more powerfully built than the thinner Nordids. This could explain why Sweden produces so many good high jumpers. Their lighter frames and longer limbs gives them an advantage there. It could also explain why Britian have a really good rowing record. Powerful upperbody with a high lung capacity. The Irish are more cro-magnon than the English so theres no reason we shouldn't win medals if rowing became popular here.

Again, these are general average characteristics. Averages do not make for elite performers.