The Death of the British Empire

sceptre

This not being the Russian music forum or the drinking hole forum, if we could all move back towards the topic at hand I'd appreciate it.

Carry

zuma wrote:

Enought with the RaMMMstein jokes......please :rolleyes:

I'm not joking.
I'm German after all .


After reading more of Victor's links I started wondering if all the points made in this thread about the downfall of the British empire has really anything to do with some historical momentum or moments?
Could it be that they only could build and keep their empire because they spread the rumour they are superior? And being superior means being ignorant about other people's culture and, yes, sense of humour? And sense of self?
And that they are still miffed because the rest of the world eventually realized that there is no superiority whatsoever? And that their sense of humour is rather, ehm, strange?

I always remember when my English friend came to visit me in Ireland and I put eggcups on the breakfast table. She is an educated and well travelled woman but she looked at the eggcups and said: I didn't know that you use eggcups. Did you learn that in Ireland? They (the Irish) have copied it from the English. We invented them.
I have never been so speechless in my whole life. Eggcups. Of all the inventions in the world. Eggcups built an empire ?
But in a way it was an Eureka moment.

Maybe the end of the British empire started with the rise of the middle classes who tried to be upper class but failed. Or: The democratization is never good for imperialism, especially in the imperialist country.
That speaks for democracy in whichever form.

A Dub in Glasgo

Death of the BE?

It will be total when they stop issuing that subservient **** called 'Member of' 'Officer' of & 'Commander of'.

Carry

sceptre wrote:

This not being the Russian music forum or the drinking hole forum, if we could all move back towards the topic at hand I'd appreciate it.

sceptre, your are the community moderator and in a community or any discussion about anything there are boreens and highways, little mental detours and straight forward thinking.
Let people just like in real life detour from the original topic. They come back to the original topic in their own time and way.

Sometimes detour thinking gives new ideas to the main topic. That's how Einstein worked his way to the relativity theory, for example.

And since you mentioned "Russian music Forum": What gave you that idea? That the misspelling of Ramstein as a (not) British Base in Germany lead to the music group of Rammstein and that I mentioned that they are big in Russia?

And why not mention Irish pubs in Berlin while discussing the British presence in Germany which is related to their downfall of the Empire?

The world is very complex, everything is connected in one way or another. And so are people who try to discuss and figure out a topic.

Or else contribute something to the main topic instead of monition a couple of OTs.

oscarBravo

Sceptre is also a moderator of this forum, so if he asks you to stay on topic, stay on topic.

mike65

Taxi for Carry?

Mike.

zuma

Am I the only one who thinks that since 1956, with some small exceptions, the UK Prime Minister is nothing more than a glorified US State Governor?

An example would be the way Blair acted like an obedient pet when they had a conversation, which was accidently heard by the worlds press, around two weeks ago.
Basically asking for permission to do this and that or would it be better for Condi to go!

I realise that Ireland isnt a shineing example of independ foreign policy, but for a country (UK) that has no problem trying to push above its weight in the EU stage, why the UK's head of government so easily cowers to ALL US Presidents for the past 50 years no matter what political persuasion eithre may come from.

Oh as for the death of Empire....India 1947.
Its peak would have been 1900.

InFront

I believe the beginning of the end of the administation of the British empire was signalled by the outbreak of WWII and Britain's act of involvement with it. The war worried Britain into the agreement with India that it would hand over independence to it when the war was over (similiar to Ireland 1914), an agreement which it honoured. Subsequently the foreign nations fell away like flies.

However, I dont think the British empire has every really gone away.

Its cultural, lingual, social, administrative, financial and sometimes religious influence remains on. Pakistan, India, Barbados, Australia, Canada, Ireland - think of all of their (our) British legacies.
The former British territories all have events to be resentful of, but the British have given us great foundations and structure that have survived the administrative and diplomatic empire. The fruit of their imperialism was only apparent in their absence. In that respect, they are a bit like a man absent from his own birth.

Flex

InFront wrote:

I believe the beginning of the end of the administation of the British empire was signalled by the outbreak of WWII and Britain's act of involvement with it. It led Britain to form the agreement with India that it would hand over independence to it when the war was over (similiar to Ireland 1914), an agreement which it honoured. Subsequently the foreign nations fell away like flies.

Britain made an agreement to give Ireland independence after WW1? Thats news to me.

InFront

The word I used was similiar.

Victor

InFront wrote:

However, I dont think the British empire has every really gone away. Its cultural, lingual, social, administrative, financial and sometimes religious influence remains on. Pakistan, India, Barbados, Australia, Canada, Ireland - think of all of their (our) British legacies.

All Hail Caesar!

zuma

Flex wrote:

Britain made an agreement to give Ireland independence after WW1? Thats news to me.

Home Rule!

sceptre

zuma wrote:

Home Rule!

Which obviously isn't the same thing as general definitions of independence.

Side issue, not important. Similar agreement is good enough for me even if the outcome would have been different.

samb

interesting thread,
Just to be devils advocate I think that there were many good things that developed out of the British empire. During its domination humanity made huge progress in terms of Democritisation, Industrial Development and technology, and Science. No other country or empire has ever had such a big influece over changing the world for the better.
For Ireland, our Celtic tiger would not be roaring without the international language of English and also remember our legal and government are baised on systems developed there.

Obviously this progression of humanity was driven by greed, and much human suffering accompanied it......I think the British Empire had a great positive legacy on the world of today....but at the time it was horrific for most.

zuma

samb wrote:

interesting thread,
Just to be devils advocate I think that there were many good things that developed out of the British empire. During its domination humanity made huge progress in terms of Democritisation, Industrial Development and technology, and Science. No other country or empire has ever had such a big influece over changing the world for the better.
For Ireland, our Celtic tiger would not be roaring without the international language of English and also remember our legal and government are baised on systems developed there.

Obviously this progression of humanity was driven by greed, and much human suffering accompanied it......I think the British Empire had a great positive legacy on the world of today....but at the time it was horrific for most.

I agree with a lot of that.

I wonder what a hundred years of American dominance (1945-2045) until China takes over will achieve?

Zebra3

"Lose Ireland, lose the empire" was the catchcry of the day, so imo, 1921 and the signing of the Anglo-Irish Treaty signalled the end of the BE.

Flex

InFront wrote:

The word I used was similiar.

I dont really see strong similarities. India got a guarantee of independence, we got a promise that talks would restart on a postponed home rule bill (which wouldve involved Ireland remaining British territory regardless).

zuma wrote:

Home Rule!

Home Rule wasnt independence.

mike65

Without 800 years of English/British domination this would be an obscure backwater with an unweildly population speaking a language no-one could understand. I'd say this country would be at the level of Slovakia.

Of course its academic anyway as if the English had'nt got here the French cetainly would have, and the food would be so much better!

Mike.

Bookee

samb wrote:

Just to be devils advocate I think that there were many good things that developed out of the British empire

Yea, perhaps a great Rail system in several countries like India, Pakistan. Usually good infrastructure where they ruled.
What did they leave in Ireland........ :rolleyes:

Bookee

mike65 wrote:

the French cetainly would have, and the food would be so much better!
Mike.

Then so would the infrastructure too

Zebra3

mike65 wrote:

Without 800 years of English/British domination this would be an obscure backwater with an unweildly population speaking a language no-one could understand. I'd say this country would be at the level of Slovakia.

Or maybe we'd be thriving country with a population similar to Holland? Close to 100% of the population would be fluent in English anyway as we would have had British tv since the 60s, plus we'd all use our own language daily.

The country would also be richer as we would not have had the flow of rent going out of the country for centuries after the British stole the land off the natives.

InFront

Bookee wrote:

Yea, perhaps a great Rail system in several countries like India, Pakistan. Usually good infrastructure where they ruled.
What did they leave in Ireland........ :rolleyes:

Have you used the India/ Pakistani railways? Great isnt how I'd describe them:D But the infrastructure did save these places after the British left, the foundations were still in place.
They did leave a pretty good infrastructure here from what Ive learned. Mike65 else alluded to the legal system, the language. Trinity College? The regional universities? The Irish railways? And of course the civil service. And look at agriculture - if Englishmen back then knew one thing it was land - their own or someone else's:) . They left agriculture in pretty good order here, and agriculture was the springboard that the first government grew from in the 1920s to create hardly a propsperous, but a stable economy.

So in my opinion the British empire, now being technically dead, or at best comatose, still has a major influence on our economic successes and way of life throughout the commonwealth and the former colonies. Agreed, it was probably pretty terrible at the time, but in hindsight they did a lot of good for us all. They havent gone away you know, just look at the amount of trade with Britain that Ireland depends on for economic success.

The British empire as a ruling body was always going to be self limiting. She raised all of her colonies to a certain economic, legal, structural and educational level at which point they gathered for themselves the tools to split away from the old ruler and go their own directions. A bit like children leaving home or a bird leaving the nest. I know that the Commonwealth and The British Empire are two vastly different things, but the former has definite allusions to the notion of an empire, and it is significant that a country such as Pakistan has actually applied to rejoin such a thing. I think that is something to consider before we pontificate on 'the end of an empire'.

mike65

The reason infrastructure here is crap is because when independance was achived the policy was spend on nothing except the Shannon Scheme! Electrification and water/sewerage was the focus back then.

The roads and railways had at best rudimentary maintainence. Its only since the mega-budget transfers from Europe (read UK and Germany) that money has been invested in any meaningful way. And the money is now at an end so we're on our own fron here on in.

Mike.

Sgt. Sensible

mike65 wrote:

Without 800 years of English/British domination this would be an obscure backwater with an unweildly population speaking a language no-one could understand. I'd say this country would be at the level of Slovakia.

Of course its academic anyway as if the English had'nt got here the French cetainly would have, and the food would be so much better!

Mike.

Maybe, but 800 years of massacres, despoilation, persecution and whatnot also retarded Irish cultural and economic development immeasurably. Ireland was one of the foremost places of learning in Europe. Its population in Elizabethan times was about 1 million compared to 2 million in England and its political system was more democratic. If the Irish had defeated the English at the battle of Kinsale, the entire history of europe and the world would probably have been different, not necessarily better or worse, just different. Ireland would have been allied with Spain and France and who knows, maybe they could have invaded England and they'd all be speaking Irish right now. Just think, no football hooligans, weak lager, bad teeth, repulsive royals, silly songs about ruling the world, or chavs.

I'm baffled as to why anyone would want to "big up" British colonialism,or any other type of colonialism, given the resultant savagery, bloodletting and human misery it caused. Or is this a troll.

InFront

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

Maybe, but 800 years of massacres, despoilation, persecution and whatnot also retarded Irish cultural and economic development immeasurably. Ireland was one of the foremost places of learning in Europe. Its population in Elizabethan times was about 1 million compared to 2 million in England and its political system was more democratic.

Im a bit confused by this point. 'Elizabethan times' was well within the last 800 years. Was Ireland at once going through a golden era and a savaged persecution in your opinion?

I'm baffled as to why anyone would want to "big up" British colonialism,or any other type of colonialism, given the resultant savagery, bloodletting and human misery it caused. Or is this a troll.

Nobody is giving it a big up AFAIU, just saying it definitely had its benefits and these benefits have outlasted the bloodshed and the (formal) administration.

Hagar

mike65 wrote:

The reason infrastructure here is crap is because when independance was achived the policy was spend on nothing except the Shannon Scheme! Electrification and water/sewerage was the focus back then.

The roads and railways had at best rudimentary maintainence.

So the legacy the Empire left us was a lack of electrification and sewerage plus rudimentary roads. We had to remedy these faults as soon as we got them out. Thanks for nothing.

Sgt. Sensible

InFront wrote:

Im a bit confused by this point. 'Elizabethan times' was well within the last 800 years. Was Ireland at once going through a golden era and a savaged persecution in your opinion?

Not quite. Elizabeth's reign saw the big push to conquer Ireland totally, and this involved rather a lot of massacres and the like, it also saw the most notable effort from the Irish to assert themselves and act as a united entity, Hugh O'Neill and all that.

Nobody is giving it a big up AFAIU, just saying it definitely had its benefits and these benefits have outlasted the bloodshed and the (formal) administration.

Mike65 was I thought.

Pocari Sweat

I've read a few posts in this thread about getting screwed by the Brit Empire, which I think was a union of England, Scotland and Wales getting together to rule about a third of the world's population. A few posts say they were a good influence, I don't know what to think either way, but looking optimistically at a few facts I would have to conclude the following;

Ireland has recently been reported in papers and TV to be the second wealthiest country in the world, second to Japan. So if there are around 200 odd countries and we beat 199 of them, we can't be doing too bad. It was not a study of GDP but disposable earnings or millionaires or something, they said we now have 30,000 millionaires and property values that often beat places like Beverly Hills.

Roads are a bit crappy in Ireland, but apparantly it is because the British Empire left so many of them, and there are more miles of roads per person in Ireland than all the leading countries like USA, Canada, France, Germany, Spain etc.

Again the British Empire left too much rail infrastructure for Ireland to cope with after the economy shrunk when they left and other conflicts like the civil war which set things back. There are as many disused Brit Empire rail networks, bridges and stations as there is being used today.

The language question is a big one. English is the international language of business, commerce, computers and the internet and without it, I don't think the Celtic Tiger would have been what it was, conducted in just Gaelic alone.

The brit newspapers that sit on the shelves in shops include The Mail, The Express, The Mirror, The Star, The Sun, The Guardian and a load of others and Sunday papers, also all the glossies are practically brit publications plus other trade journals and misc stuff like Autotrader, Exchange and Mart, the list is endless. Easons are more or less a supplier for most things brit.

Channels available include BBC1, BBC2, ITV, Chan 4, all the satellite progs and the comedy and sport enjoyed all over the country from brit sources. Take comedy, Father Ted was turned down by RTE and was made by chan 4 in the end. Most classic comedies enjoyed over the decades have been fron England, - Monty Python, Faulty Towers, etc, all the basic stuff in the 70's like Dad's Army, etc and plenty more in the 80's and 90's, to comedy like the Fast Show, Ali G, Bo' Selecta, League of Gentlemen, Little Brittain etc.

Also football is a big brit export, and although many players of teams in the UK are idolised in teams like MUFC, Liverpool, Chelsea, Leeds etc, when the players get together to play for International squads then it is a different matter. Most of the Irish squad are players from brit teams with brit accents, though.

Take away all the printed publications, TV, sport and comedy as an influence in Ireland, and leave just the local papers, tv sport and comedy, and would it be far better?

Business and commerce in Ireland has thrived with the local import of brit goods and services. Brit supermarkets have the largest spend from irish wallets now, so brit food is a big influence as well as sport and comedy, papers and TV. Other products and services make up a large part of the irish economy, helping to also make it more competitive with lower import costs being the nearest.

Anyway, the brits did get their oar in the running of ireland, it has happened now, so we can't change things, and we may as well get on with it, it ain't so bad.

mike65

*Sigh* You just don't get these threads do you?

Oh and Fr Ted was never offered to RTE (that Linnehan and Matthews did has reached Urban Myth proportions).

Hagar on the roads, remember back in 1921 they would have been adequate. The problems came later.

Mike.

Hagar

mike65 wrote:

Hagar on the roads, remember back in 1921 they would have been adequate. The problems came later.

Jayses Mike, I know I'm old but not that old.