Israeli soldiers were in Lebanon when captured, not Israel

Akrasia

Has the media has been lying to us all along to justify the horrific Israeli military action against Lebanon?

We have all been told that Hezbollah breached Israeli borders and captured Israeli soldiers from behind the Israeli lines and this has been the justification for the annialation of lebanon and the killing of around 400 lebanese people and 4 U.N. observers.

Initial reports of the event were that the Israeli soldiers were captured on Lebanese territory after clashes between the IDF and Hezbollah, but now it has emerged that the Soldiers were captured near the town of Aitaa al-Chaab well inside the Lebanese border.
this one is from forbes.com

The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them.

The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity.

http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html

The story was quickly changed to imply that the soldiers were captured along the border, and then changed again to suggest that hezbollah had captured the soldiers from within Israel.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/israeli_solders.html

The fact that Israel were the aggressors in this incident completely removes all possible justification for Israeli's bombing campaign in Lebanon and now the case is perfectly clear, Israel are in gross violation of international law and should be immediately sanctioned.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/israeli_solders.html

Nuttzz

british soliders that crossed into the republic were never kidnapped....

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Heinrich

Nuttzz wrote:

british soliders that crossed into the republic were never kidnapped....

Off topic but while we are at it do you have proof of your statement?

Sadly Israel , having the backing of the Global Sheriff, is broadly being looked on as a victim! The destruction in Lebanon for the kidnap of two military personnel is disproportionate even if they had been taken in Jerusalem itself.

References to IRA activity are inappropriate as are references to Nazism.

Sgt. Sensible

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Beirut, July 12 (DPA) The Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon.

'Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon,' a statement by Hezbollah said.

'The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place,' it added.

The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they 'infiltrated' into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border.

Yahoo news.

:rolleyes:

hydra_

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

*shakes head* What are you blind? The current reporting is extremely biased towards israel. Where is the headlines calling for sanctions against israel for the atrocities they are now committing? There is none, why is that do you think?

Do you think if hezbollah were conducting cross border raids in israel & had 2 of their men captured it gives lebanon the right to level israel, kill 400 civilians, most of them women & children & displace 3/4 of a million people??? No it does not, so whats different here???
Your being incredibly naive to think this is fair reporting :rolleyes:

oscarBravo

Heinrich wrote:

Off topic but while we are at it do you have proof of your statement?

It is off-topic. Nuttzz, don't reply to that, and please don't try to drag any more threads off-topic.

oscarBravo

hydra, please confine your comments to the points being made by other posters, and keep your opinions on the posters to yourself, thanks.

silverharp

[QUOTE=hydraThe current reporting is extremely biased towards israel. Where is the headlines calling for sanctions against israel for the atrocities they are now committing? There is none, why is that do you think?
[/QUOTE]

I was watching the BBC news last night and the first 10 minutes was all about the plight of the civilians, the next segment was how could the IDF not have known that they were shelling a UN base?

not bad considering Blair is Bush's bitc*!

bonkey

Akrasia wrote:

Has the media has been lying to us all along to justify the horrific Israeli military action against Lebanon?

Perhaps.

Its also possible that the initial reports were based on false information, that Hezbollah falsely claimed that the captures were in Israel (thus leading to teh confusion) and the current version is the true one now that the confusion over what initially happened has cleared up.

Its also possible that the media are honestly reporting what information they can determine to be true, even if someone else is lying in order to mislead them.

Suggesting the media is lying suggests that the media know what they are saying is untrue, and that they are deliberately trying to mislead people. I find that fairly unlikely, personally.

gandalf

TBH it doesn't matter at this stage if they were in Lebanon or not, the IDF have no justification in the murder of civilians either way.

Akrasia

gandalf wrote:

TBH it doesn't matter at this stage if they were in Lebanon or not, the IDF have no justification in the murder of civilians either way.

It is important in the context that Israel claim that Hezbollah were the unprovoked aggressors, and that they can not be expected to stand Idly by and allow them to threaten Israeli citizens and soldiers.
If there was no actual incursion then their claims to be acting in self defence are completely false and the already thin ice they are skating melts away completely.

Sgt. Sensible

bonkey wrote:

Perhaps.

Its also possible that the initial reports were based on false information, that Hezbollah falsely claimed that the captures were in Israel (thus leading to teh confusion) and the current version is the true one now that the confusion over what initially happened has cleared up.

Hezbollah's initial claim was that the Israeli soldiers were killed and captured on the Lebanese side of the border. See my post above. I'm not aware that they ever claimed to have been on the Israeli side of the border.

I don't see much reporting from the hezbollah side, probably because it's simply too dangerous.

Manic Moran

Well, looking through the UN reports for the last few years, there are no claimed Israeli ground violations of the Blue Line, but multiple from the Lebanese (Hezbullah) side, including that attempt 6 months ago to capture soldiers. I think the likelihood is that the Israelis were indeed on the Israeli side of the line.

The Hezbullah claim about Southern Lebanon may simply be a reflection of them refusing to hold the existance of Israel, and that that part of Israel is in fact a piece of Lebanon just not under Lebanese control.

NTM

banaman

silverharp wrote:

I was watching the BBC news last night and the first 10 minutes was all about the plight of the civilians, the next segment was how could the IDF not have known that they were shelling a UN base?

not bad considering Blair is Bush's bitc*!

Other news sources were quite clearly carrying the statement from the UN that they had informed the IDF 10 times in 6 hours. How could they not know?
So the BBC is pushing the IDF lies AGAIN.

lostexpectation

bonkey wrote:

Perhaps.

Suggesting the media is lying suggests that the media know what they are saying is untrue, and that they are deliberately trying to mislead people. I find that fairly unlikely, personally.

but of course they are they have access to this information and dont't report it, and they take the government press release line over anyother truths.

silverharp

banaman wrote:

Other news sources were quite clearly carrying the statement from the UN that they had informed the IDF 10 times in 6 hours. How could they not know?
So the BBC is pushing the IDF lies AGAIN.

you misunderstood what I wrote, the BBC had a graphic showing the UN base on top of a hill, the tone was they must of known what they were hitting, as they showed base communicating that they were the UN

Slainte70

Akrasia, according to your theory and links which you provided, it was the IDF who actually infiltrated the Lebanese border and good auld Hezbollah, who happened upon them in the lebanese village of Aitaa al-Chaab... did their civic duty...fired anti-rockets and blew up 2 IDF hummers... killing three IDF soldiers and kidnapping two....

If this is to be deemed the correct version of events, then can you kindly explain to me why in the bejaysus were the two burning IDF hummers found near the Israeli moshav Zarit?

I won't even mention Nasrallah's speech boasting about the Hezbollah attack was five months in the planning!

This theory really takes the biscuit...:rolleyes:

Nuttzz

Akrasia wrote:

If there was no actual incursion then their claims to be acting in self defence are completely false and the already thin ice they are skating melts away completely.

If the IDF troops went into South Lebanon then surely it is up to the Lebanese army rather than Hezbollah to deal with?

Slainte70

So I take it Arkasia, since you haven't answered my question, this theory of yours is baseless...

Sgt. Sensible

Haaretz wrote:

The fighting began at about 9:00 A.M., when a group of reserve soldiers in two armored jeeps was conducting a routine patrol of the border. As the jeeps passed between Moshav Zarit and Moshav Shtula, Hezbollah attacked.

An initial inquiry revealed that the Hezbollah operatives had crossed the border earlier via a "dead zone" in the border fence not visible from any of the IDF observation posts. There are dozens of similar "dead zones" along the northern border, though the IDF said that observation cameras to cover this particular spot were due to be installed next week. The assailants may have used a wheeled ladder to climb over the fence.

The operatives hid themselves in an overgrown wadi about 200 meters on the Israeli side of the fence and waited until the IDF troops arrived, whereupon they attacked, apparently with a combination of explosives and anti-tank missiles.

Three soldiers were killed during the initial assault, while one soldier was seriously wounded, another lightly wounded and a third suffered a shrapnel scratch. In addition, the assailants kidnapped the two soldiers. According to the IDF, Hezbollah probably had an escape vehicle waiting on the other side of the fence. The entire incident took no more than 10 minutes, and the Israeli soldiers apparently never fired a shot.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738310.html

Frederico

I have seen a couple of reporters in the last few days saying "which we are not allowed to report on".. I saw an interview with Dan Rather a few years back, he came across as very frustrated what he was not allowed to report. The media tries not to purposefully tell lies, but they can be manipulated to a certain degree by governments, agencies, etc. Stories can be buried or hyped. Israel has alot of influence.

Put these in order in which they would appear on Irish news..
300 Chinese dead in flood
25 killed in explosion in Sri Lanka
2 killed in suicide bombing in Tel Aviv

The truth can be ignored, the IDF taking 2 Palestinians was ignored, now with the Lebanon WAR (sick of spin like crisis, incursion, blah) Palestine was ignored till a few days ago when they realised 160 had died. If Lebanon or Hizbollah say the Israeli soldiers were captured on the Lebanese side of the border, all Israel has to do is say they weren't. The world will take the Israeli word on it.

Frederico

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738310.html

Thats an Israeli site, theres a war on.. do you believe it?

Sgt. Sensible

Frederico wrote:

Thats an Israeli site, theres a war on.. do you believe it?

I'm keeping an open mind. Haaretz is a reputable source and is often highly critical of the government and IDF actions.

bonkey

lostexpectation wrote:

they have access to this information and dont't report it,

Strange then that this entire thread is based on this information being reported.

and they take the government press release line over anyother truths.

Any other truths? So there's different truths in your view?

Malone

How many Palestinian and Lebanese people have Israel kidnapped over the years.

redspider

Whether the 8 soldiers killed when the 2 others were kidnapped were in South Lebanon or Israel is immaterial, in the sense that Israel will say that they were in Israel and Hezbollah will say that they were in Lebanon. The exact truth may never be known and there is also I believe a zone which is the border where both side 'interact'. But it doesnt matter.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, its not important as to how this latest esclation of hostilities started, there is no benefit ion answering 'who started it', as it was 'started' decades ago. The question now is who will solve it.

Nuttzz wrote:

If the IDF troops went into South Lebanon then surely it is up to the Lebanese army rather than Hezbollah to deal with?

My understanding is that in South Lebanon, Hezbollah are seen as the de facto military force and are allowed by Lebanon to do so. In fact welcomed to do so. It was Hezbollah's years of fighting with Israel in South Lebanon that has won them that 'respect'. For many in the area, they are not a terrorist organisation. Even for many soverign nations around the world, they are not terrorists, and you can include Ireland in that list ! They even build hospitals and schools !

Also Syria's pull-out fom South Lebanon must be considered, as their 10's of thousands of well equiped soldiers, etc, and with tanks were protecting Lebanon. They have gone only recently (earlier this year wasnt it) and it would be interesting to hear what they have to say on the situation. I wonder do they feel duped?

I dont know much about the Lebanese Army or its strength, but there is no airforce of any note it seems, nothing to stop the Israeli's from bombing Beruit, Lebanon's capital, the airport, etc, and its not as if they are holding back 100,000's of thousands of soldiers or saying to airforce not to shoot at Israeli planes, etc Let them bomb us. Its a case of not having the capability I believe, and their previous reliance on Syria to handle the military aspects.

Lebanese people wanted Syria out, they changed governments, etc, so that is also a factor. Now I think Syria are waiting for Lebanon to ask them back in, but Lebanon probably wants global help in being able to stand on their own two feet.

My reading into intelligence is that Hezbollah is as well ( or better) armed as the Lebanese army in terms of ordnance, and is a part of the people and lives among them. The 'terrorists' in this case are embedded, not as a strategy, but thats who they are - they are part of the people, and are supported by the vast majority of them, it would seem.

redspider

redspider

Frederico wrote:

I have seen a couple of reporters in the last few days saying "which we are not allowed to report on"..
Put these in order in which they would appear on Irish news..
300 Chinese dead in flood
25 killed in explosion in Sri Lanka
2 killed in suicide bombing in Tel Aviv

The truth can be ignored, ... Palestine was ignored till a few days ago when they realised 160 had died.

Yes, it is true that Israel is censoring what International news media can broadcast. The same happened in Iraq, and is happening, for example, CBS in the US aren't 'allowed' to show dead US soldiers, coffins coming back from Iraq, and in this current conflict must show 'balanced' reporting, as in where the bombs come down in Israel, etc. They have more access to Israeli bomb sites than those in Lebanon.

The first victim of war is the truth. It has always been the case. Thats why smart people need to think and read 'through' the news. Read between the lines as to what world leaders say and do. The media helps get at the tuth but cant get access to the whole tuth, thats for sure.

In terms of attacks on Palestinians, these escalated in the last couple of weeks while the world's eyes concentrated on Lebanon. Bad news somewhere else is to many an opportunity. But deaths anywhere become 'acceptable' after the initial shock wears off. eg: Iraq was also dropped off the news yet many days there were 50 or 60 deaths a day, probably more than in Lebanon.

Meanwhile, 1m people a year die from Malaria and many millions from starvation. There are wars all over the place.

What a happy world we live in?

redspider

Manic Moran

redspider wrote:

My reading into intelligence is that Hezbollah is as well ( or better) armed as the Lebanese army in terms of ordnance,

Actually, no.

Unless Hezbullah has some 350 tanks and 700 APCs, tube artillery, and whatnot.

The issue is whether or not the Lebanese army would split into factions if ordered to go forcibly disarm Hezbullah.

NTM

Sgt. Sensible

Manic Moran wrote:

Actually, no.

Unless Hezbullah has some 350 tanks and 700 APCs, tube artillery, and whatnot.

The issue is whether or not the Lebanese army would split into factions if ordered to go forcibly disarm Hezbullah.

NTM

If Israel is struggling to defeat hezbollah, the Lebanese army would have zero chance. Tanks, especially Lebanon's antiques, are vulnerable in the kind of terrain hezbollah occupy. The IDF acknowledged this and that's why they're relying on artillery and air power.

Not that there's any chance of the Lebanese army collaborating with Israel now.

Manic Moran

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

If Israel is struggling to defeat hezbollah, the Lebanese army would have zero chance. Tanks, especially Lebanon's antiques, are vulnerable in the kind of terrain hezbollah occupy.

The Lebanese (assuming that the Shia component follows orders) would have major advantages over the Israelis.

1) They aren't Israeli, and thus are much more likely to get some co-operation from the locals. Not least, they speak the right language.
2) The can flood areas with troops and search for things on the ground. Israel isn't doing that right now.
3) Israel's only having difficulty because it's restricting itself.

NTM