Protests against Israel?

Manic Moran

I think that's the first time I've ever heard a nuclear-armed Iran referred to as a 'force for stability in the region.'

NTM

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote:

Israel doesn't have the support of the world. Its just that they're not applying punishments to them. Very few countries have approved of the Israeli response if any. A few started to but once the massive civilian casualties started occuring that support dried up.

However Hizbollah have support in that people will criticise Israel without talking all that much about Hizbollah's killings.... Have you managed to complain about Hizbollah using Lebanon firstly to launch attacks, and secondly that the attacks occured at all? I doubt it.

As for Ireland, I noticed aid went to Lebanon and Palestine. I didn't see any aid going to Israeli civilians for the damage/deaths caused by Hizbollah's rockets..... Not really support, would you say?

In your eyes, in order to criticise Israel for their slaughter, people have to have an equal criticism of Hizbollah. If they do not, it opens people up to allegations from certain individuals (like you) that they are anti-Israeli and/or pro-Hizbollah. Sounds very much like whataboutery to me in order to deflect from the criticism of the country you support.

People should be able to criticise a party who has slaughters hundreds of civilians without this whataboutery.

Sgt. Sensible

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

Perhaps that's something to do with the perception that Israel is killing a heck of lot more people and destroying a heck of a lot more stuff in Lebanon than Hezbollah are in Israel. There might also be the perception that Israel are undoubtedly the aggressors here, attacking an almost defenceless nation.

I'm not going to deny any of that. My point isn't about whether israel is right or wrong. My point is that there is a very much selective stance when it comes to protests. If it was really about the wars or the people dead, these marches would be organised against the terrorist grousp aswell. Which I've Very rarely ever heard any mention of.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

In your eyes, in order to criticise Israel for their slaughter, people have to have an equal criticism of Hizbollah. If they do not, it opens people up to allegations from certain individuals (like you) that they are anti-Israeli and/or pro-Hizbollah. Sounds very much like whataboutery to me in order to deflect from the criticism of the country you support.

Nope. I'm not accusing anyone of being anti-israeli and/or pro-Hizbollah. I mentioned the lack of protests towards the groups that also do the killing.

As I mention above I find these marches to be very selective. Basically if they've (A nation) caused a higher body count, then they're the ones to complain about. How about marching protesting that the conflict has occured at all placing blame on both Israel & Hizbollah? What would be wrong about that?

People should be able to criticise a party who has slaughters hundreds of civilians without this whataboutery.

And they are. I gave my opinion that if people truely cared about the people dying they'd be marching against both parties of the conflict. I didn't say that either one was in the right.

If Israel had created a lesser death toll on civilians than Hizbollah in this conflict would you march about Hizbollah?

Sgt. Sensible

Deleted User wrote:

I'm not going to deny any of that. My point isn't about whether israel is right or wrong. My point is that there is a very much selective stance when it comes to protests. If it was really about the wars or the people dead, these marches would be organised against the terrorist grousp aswell. Which I've Very rarely ever heard any mention of.

If you feel strongly about something, you're free to protest about it. I don't understand people who expect others to protest on their behalf and then complain when nothing happens.

Keano

Nothing wrong with protesting but unless you have thousands with you then someone might take note.

But in my opinion protests generally achieve nothing. It is a shame but thats just the way it is.

zen63

You know, some people are actually appalled and condemn Israeli slaughter of innocent people.

It is obvious that Israel cares not a jot what anybody, who has a concern for civilians, think.

You know, I am actually appalled and condemn Hezbolah for hiding in areas which will cause innocent people to be slaughtered. To think if they didnt hide there, the death toll wouldnt be so high. Using human shields is a bad business - someone should do something about these evil people.

It is obvious that Hezbollah cares not a jot for anybody, who has a concern for civilians, think. Terrible behaviour!

Sgt. Sensible

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

If you feel strongly about something, you're free to protest about it. I don't understand people who expect others to protest on their behalf and then complain when nothing happens.

What i never understood is people who protest about a war, protest about the killing involved, and only focus on one side.... I have no problem with people protesting.

I just wonder why people can't be a little more honest and admit that they're protesting that Israel kills more civilians than Hizbollah..........

sovtek

Deleted User wrote:

What i never understood is people who protest about a war, protest about the killing involved, and only focus on one side.... I have no problem with people protesting.

I just wonder why people can't be a little more honest and admit that they're protesting that Israel kills more civilians than Hizbollah..........

I think you might have a little bit of a misconception about their protests.

HelterSkelter

Morlar wrote:

I will be boycotting them too - does anyone have a link to a site that lists their most popular products sold in europe ? Any re-branding of items going on ? I read somewhere that (I think) it was '7 29 XXXXXXXXXXXXX' the start numbers of bar code items that originate in israel (open to correction on that one).

PS bookee - I will shut up now !

*Just came across this - while looking up boycott israel

http://www.starbucks.com/aboutus/pressdesc.asp?id=668&rumor=true

which says :

You may have seen a rumor or web posting about Howard Schultz, Starbucks and the Israeli army. The rumor and web posting are factually inaccurate. Neither Chairman Howard Schultz nor Starbucks fund or support the Israeli Army. Starbucks is a non-political organization and does not support individual political causes.



Contact Information:
Starbucks Coffee Company
(206) 318-7100
press@starbucks.com

Check this out, Starbucks have opened an outlet in Guantanamo Bay...

http://www.labour.ie/ericbyrne/news/20060612151012.html

HelterSkelter

Deleted User wrote:

Israel doesn't have the support of the world. Its just that they're not applying punishments to them. Very few countries have approved of the Israeli response if any. A few started to but once the massive civilian casualties started occuring that support dried up.

And thats why the US provide Israel with weapons then, because they don't support them?

HelterSkelter

In response to the OP's question, there is an anti-war demonstration this weekend, details are on the Labour Party's homepage (BTW, I'm not a labour party supporter, was just reading their site!!)

National Anti-War demonstration:

Saturday, July 29th at 2pm
Assemble at Garden of Remembrance,
Parnell Square,Dublin 2

Speakers to include: Michael D.Higgins TD

bonkey

clown bag wrote:

Once again you equate any kind of protest against the slaughter in Lebanon as being anti-Israeli. Did it never cross your mind that the protests might be anti- indiscriminate killings regardless of who pulls the trigger?

Surely if the protests were against indiscriminate killings, they would be against indiscriminate killings in both Israel and Lebanon.

One can note that the OP is outraged and wishes to protest at the Israeli actions against Lebanon, but has no expressed interest in protesting the launchnig of rockets indiscriminately against the Israeli population.

I believe Israel's actions are unacceptable. I also believe Hizbollah's are. I also believe the inaction of the Lebanese government regardless of its possibility of success are as well. I do not believe that protesting against any one side is productive, worthwhile or neutral.

I won't be buying Chateau Musar (my fave red) any more than I'll be buying Israeli melons. Neither side deserve my support.

jc

Sand

What do you suggest people do? No doubt you feel anyone who doesn't agree with you should just shut up and do nothing because in your opinion they are wrong.

Endorsing actions when I disagree with the views that underly those actions would be rather contradictorary, wouldnt it? I couldnt give a ****e if some rent a mob shows up outside the Israeli embassy for a few hours, blaming Israel for being attacked...Neither will Israel. No ones answered whether they believe Olmerts going to read the news monday mornin going "OMFG, some anti-war/pro hamas/hizbollah arts students in Ireland held a protest - full retreat!!!!!" Olmerts got the reality that Hizbollah are hitting his citizens with rockets and hes being asked to defend them. The usual suspects over here can continue to delude themselves that its all really some evil US-Israeli plot against poor innocent Hizbollah/Hamas.

Jesus, what gets me is these guys pretend theyre the cynics. Im the cynic. They think the US is the omnipotent bad guy. I believe the closest thing to the good guy *is* the US.

Once again you equate any kind of protest against the slaughter in Lebanon as being anti-Israeli.

No I dont. When student protestors march in anger against Hizbollah and Hamas attacks on Israeli civillians then Ill be happy to view them as balanced in their analysis. Otherwise, well, I cant be blamed for calling a spade a spade, can I?

How are you any better than those Provo apologists who justify indiscriminate bombings killing innocent people because as they see it, it is an act of self defense and that the IRA were provoked into doing such things?

SFIRA supporters such as Glasgo would endorse SFIRA actions on the basis that they were carried out by SFIRA. I do not endorse IDF actions on the basis that they were carried out by the IDF (For example, I dont agree with the logic of attacking civillian powerplants for example because A) its prohibited to attack civillian facitilities, and even if power plants are dual use any military facility will have backup generators ), I simply accept they have a right to defend their citizens from attacks launched from South Lebenon by seemingly unchallenged factions within the Lebanese government. So long as the IDF operate within the demands of the GC, whats to condemn/endorse? SFIRA never operated within the boundaries of the GC, they deliberately murdered civillians and left no warning bombs in shopping high streets. Omagh wasnt condemned by the Provos for being "wrong", merely for being strategically inappropriate.

Terrorism is wrong full stop, regardless of whether it is carried out by a small underground movement or by an overt state force.

Maybe the protestors should remind Hizbollah of that whilst theyre out and about? They seem to need the reminder more than most.

You know, some people are actually appalled and condemn Israeli slaughter of innocent people.

Would that include SFIRA supporters Glasgow? Maybe if the IDF wore balaclavas and hired Gerry Adams as their spokesman youd feel more able to endorse their actions...

People should be able to criticise a party who has slaughters hundreds of civilians without this whataboutery.

You know, if they need a new defintion of irony, theyll always have the above quote from a supporter of SFIRA...

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand... the master of whataboutery and apologist for civilian slaughter

sceptre

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Sand... the master of whataboutery and apologist for civilian slaughter

A Dub in Glasgo... banned for two weeks for attacking the poster and not the post (more pertinently not bothering to engage in the discussion at all in favour of that). As it's at least a second offence it'd be a month but I'm feeling charitable. Please avoid a future third offence.

sceptre

Sand banned for a week for close enough to the same behaviour, specifically paragraph 6. Coating an indirect attack in sugar frosting doesn't do much for me.

sceptre

bonkey wrote:

Surely if the protests were against indiscriminate killings, they would be against indiscriminate killings in both Israel and Lebanon.

Obviously given my stated position on this conflict I agree with the above as well as the rest of bonkey's post. I've no sympathy for or interest in any protest that specifically targets one group of idiots firing rockets indiscriminately at civilian areas while ignoring the other group of idiots firing rockets indiscriminately at civilian areas.

Sgt. Sensible

bonkey wrote:

I also believe the inaction of the Lebanese government regardless of its possibility of success are as well.

What should they do that doesn't cause the country to descend into civil war again, or earn them an even more intense hammering from Israel.

I won't be buying Chateau Musar (my fave red) any more than I'll be buying Israeli melons.

Hezbollah funded by booze sales?

elivsvonchiaing

Maybe I'm a bit cynical - but really think this war is "permitted" by the US because it makes economic sense to do so.

The idea that a war anywhere is going to affect US economic interests and is not going to be "intervened" lies back in the days of the USSR.

Its not about having an interest in Oil anymore; its about a power vacuum that has existed since the breakup of the USSR.

A unipolar earth - i.e. one economic and politically driven earth, is not going to work when the super-power is perceived to stand back because: there is too much money to be made in armourments; airport security; Islamic widows funds etc...

My belief is this: America created the ultimate Aa'liyah - in the pursuit of an ultimate insurance policy.

America can sit back and relax now as it has for 68 years and worry about oil-prices - and missing plutonium - until the answer emerges - and gives rise to a warming feeling - "It's in éretz"!

This has a converging principle with El-Wuhabism - a lot of educated people bought this in Islam - and I believe it is the real war is going to be waged psychologically.

It doesn't matter who plays for your team, it only matters that you have a team; agree on strategy and are not torn between interests.

I have Islamic neighbours and also muslims in work. In some cases there is a little tension there - and I don't blame them...

The "war machine" is simply feeding an economy that realised its growth from warfare.

What is going on in (by Israel) Lebanon is abhorent. Likewise the conduct of Hesbollah!

It does seem laughable that any of this can be healed by diplomacy - I know ppl in this field including family and know it is populated by too many morons that don't know the following: how to interpret a gesture (culturally); appreciate the fact that everybody doesn't speak x and they are in a country where there are more languages than there are letters in our own alphabet.

<edit - deleted>

Dirk Gently

Sand wrote:

Endorsing actions when I disagree with the views that underly those actions would be rather contradictorary, wouldnt it? ...

That’s fair enough of course. So it’s the cause of the protest you look down on rather than the concept of peaceful protest? It just looked from your other post that you thought any kind of protest about anything was stupid. Often they achieve little or nothing but the alternative is violent opposition. I know you wouldn't approve of that. TBH I think the protests are designed more to put pressure on the Irish Gov to clearly denounce the violence and try to encourage other countries to do so rather than any delusion that the IDF will pay any attention to them. or maybe they are deluded in that they think a democratic government would pay any attention to peaceful opposition. Accountability is supposed to be one of the things that separates a terrorist from a legitimate state army.

Sand wrote:

rent a mob

some anti-war/pro hamas/hizbollah arts students

The usual suspects over here can continue to delude themselves that its all really some evil US-Israeli plot against poor innocent Hizbollah/Hamas.

student protestors ...

This is what I mean when I said I thought your view was reactionary. You seem to think that anyone protesting is a wooly headed liberal and automatically out of instinct take the opposing view. On the one hand you claim all the protesters see conspiracies everywhere and then you go and label them all as art student Castro lovers. It is possible that their might actually be a few more conservative people with right wing views who are equally appalled and are protesting too. Even a broken clock is wrong twice a day and all that. I think you are looking at the groups leading the protests and deciding that they are wrong specifically because of who the groups protesting are, (or who you think they are).

Sand wrote:

well, I cant be blamed for calling a spade a spade, can I?...

This is what I feel you are not doing tbh.

Sand wrote:

You know, if they need a new defintion of irony, theyll always have the above quote from a supporter of SFIRA...

I agree it is Ironic that RA heads complain about innocent lives been lost in indiscriminate bombings. I also feel its ironic that someone who condemns those very RA heads then lends their support to what they see as justified indiscriminate bombings when carried out by an elected state with an organised army using state of the art weaponry.

both sides of the same coin if you ask me. Both trying to find a rational excuse to condone murder and terrorism by what they see as a legitimate right to self defence.

the_syco

If there was a protest outside an Irish Embassy in India, in 1916, I doubt anyone here would really give a damn. Likewise with Isreal, now.

And yes, I agree with Isreal right to defend and retaliate against its aggressors. You think when Isreal got attacked, that it'd roll over and play dead?

=-=

The IRA always phoned ahead of its bombings, and only attacked hard targets. I can't say the same for the IRA copy cats, tho. Also, Hezbolla has attacked a number of soft tagets in Isreal.

Dirk Gently

the_syco wrote:

If there was a protest outside an Irish Embassy in India, in 1916, I doubt anyone here would really give a damn. Likewise with Isreal, now..

Jasus, that would of being one for the History books alright. A protest in a country ruled by Britain outside an embassy of another country also ruled by Britain about violent revolution to overthrow that power which ruled both countries.

It was clear from a few days ago that Israel twisted its logic once more to claim that the World supported its military action because no agreement was reached at the international talks in Rome. If indeed citizens in countries like Ireland don't feel their own government is doing enough to make clear its position then by all means the protests are justified to pressure the Irish Government and other governments into not giving out any kind of mixed signals that can be twisted around to somehow justify more attacks.

the_syco wrote:

And yes, I agree with Isreal right to defend and retaliate against its aggressors. You think when Isreal got attacked, that it'd roll over and play dead?..

Defend and retaliate against who though?
Also do you not think that hitting the wrong people is only going to turn those people against Israel too. Israel bombing innocent people in Lebanon is only ever going to result in more recruits for Hezbollah putting Israels long term security at an even greater risk.

the_syco wrote:

The IRA always phoned ahead of its bombings, and only attacked hard targets.

Are you pro-IRA tactics and Pro- Israeli military tactics but anti-Hezbollah tactics

the_syco wrote:

Also, Hezbolla has attacked a number of soft tagets in Isreal.

Nobody is denying this or offering any support for it. Some people are however denying that Israel has hit soft targets and are supporting their tactics. The more Israel slaughters innocent people the more those people are going to see Hezbollah as justified. Its the same logic that Israelis are using now after all.

The Corinthian

Sand wrote:

I believe the closest thing to the good guy *is* the US.

That's getting to be a close run thing between them and Iran at this stage...

Sgt. Sensible

the_syco wrote:

The IRA always phoned ahead of its bombings, and only attacked hard targets.

I've no idea what the IRA has to do with the middle east but this is like, so not true dude.

HelterSkelter

HelterSkelter wrote:

And thats why the US provide Israel with weapons then, because they don't support them?

When did the US become the rest of the world? What other nations support Israel?

sovtek wrote:

I think you might have a little bit of a misconception about their protests.

Enlighten me. Do they not carry around signs, and chant about Israel's actions? Do they not give speeches about the indiscriminate attacks made by Israel? Do they even acknowledge Hezbollah role in all of this?

I could be wrong. I'd seriously like to know.

clown bag wrote:

Nobody is denying this or offering any support for it. Some people are however denying that Israel has hit soft targets and are supporting their tactics. The more Israel slaughters innocent people the more those people are going to see Hezbollah as justified. Its the same logic that Israelis are using now after all.

That kind of logic doesn't float with me. If you applied the same logic to Hezbollah, you would be saying that israel is justified in bombing indiscriminate ly. Afterall the only difference bwteen the two is that Israel has killed more people. They both kill civilians. So why isn't there more outrage about that?

Dirk Gently

Deleted User wrote:

That kind of logic doesn't float with me. If you applied the same logic to Hezbollah, you would be saying that israel is justified in bombing indiscriminate ly. Afterall the only difference bwteen the two is that Israel has killed more people. They both kill civilians. So why isn't there more outrage about that?

That’s exactly my point Klaz. The majority of Israelis do think their military is justified in what its doing because they reckon Hezbollah attack indiscriminately so why shouldn't they. It would be only fair to assume that the people of Lebanon who are now on the receiving end will increase their support for anyone willing to fight back, even if that means supporting Hezbollah. I'm not saying I personally support any group that bombs indiscriminately, I'm saying innocent victims of indiscriminate bombings can harden their attitude and support the same tactics when used by their own side. It might not be the right course of action but it is one that many feel obliged to do out of desperation and also revenge. I don't justify the IDF or Hezbollah tactics, I'm saying their victims are likely to support each of them getting a taste of their own medicine.

The attitude of a lot of people caught up in the fighting will be, an eye for an eye........an indiscriminate bombing for an indiscriminate bombing

New_Departure06

Was such a protest today in Dublin 1,000 turned up. Another form of protest would be a boycott. In particular, I would ask people to boycott Jaffa Oranges, which are exported from Israel.

Bookee

....So, you're sure you're not coming along SAND.... ?!!!

GO ON? GO ON? GO ON !!!!

FYI

If you are still wondering why you have noticed an influx of pro-Israeli posters, this could be your answer:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-2289232,00.html

"In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate."

indiewindy

FYI wrote:

If you are still wondering why you have noticed an influx of pro-Israeli posters, this could be your answer:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-2289232,00.html

"In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate."

Great spot, so their fighting their war in cyberspace too!!!
Hope they don't bomb my PC:)
At least if thier online they won't be killing UN observers, civilians, bombing airports, bridges, hospitals, power stations etc