Protests against Israel?

New_Departure06

Well IRA HQ is in Dublin and if somebody bombed it I would really be cut up. I really would.

LOL The Israelis are bombing indiscriminately and that is obvious. They bombed a truck filled with fruit according to reports yesterday. You fall for it every time obviously. A report in the Jerusalem Post carried a claim Gen. Dan Halutz has ordered 10 high rise appartment blocks to be bombed for every Katyusha Hezbollah fires into Haifa. This is 10 eyes for an eye, 10 teeth for a teeth. It is collective punishment.

fly_agaric

New_Departure06 wrote:

LOL The Israelis are bombing indiscriminately and that is obvious. They bombed a truck filled with fruit according to reports yesterday.

Yeah but that could have been Hizbollah Fruit and Veg. and you know it!


We know the Israelis *always* regret terribly the deaths they cause. Unlike their subhuman enemies it really tears em up inside. And once you say you regret something, that makes it okay.

In fact - I think the world's media are not paying enough attention to the burdens all this regret and sorrow places on the poor Israelis.

It's Anti-semitic media bias!

They should really be sending them the message that its okay - they need not be so regretful! They should feel proud of themselves when they kill.

New_Departure06

New_Departure06 wrote:

They weren't dying before the IDF of the Israeli Reich launched its Blitzkrieg into Lebanon.

I had avoided commenting on the actual invasion in this thread till now, but here i go. During the kidnapping israeli soldiers were killed, and thereafter Rockets were fired into Israeli territory beforeany planes attacked Lebanese areas. Am I wrong?

InFront wrote:

This is my first problem with your opinion. I understand that it is a nother thread but if you are pro-Israeli (however anyone can take either side is beyond me) what is your problem with people you see as pro Hezbolah?

This is what gets me. It took a accusation of me labeling people pro-whatever, for me to post that I am pro-israel. I haven't labelled anybody in this thread or any thread as being pro-whatever. What is your problem that you have to think that I am doing so?

I cant speak for anyone else here, but I am not pro-Hezbollah. Inevitably some opinions I have would be similiar to opinions expressed by Hezbollah, but as for their involvement in the conflict it is equallyb as disgraceful as Israel's. I agree with you that numbers do not matter.

I don't care if you are pro-Hezbollah or not. From the very beginning my point in this post was about the protests and their direction. If they're going to be about civilian deaths, then let them be about civilian deaths without focusing solely on just lebanese deaths. No matter how many times I say it, nobody sees it, except for me somehow promoting Israel, and labelling people.

For myself I have already said why I wouldnt try to boycott Iran and Syria. We cant boycott every single state who may be implicated or it would never end. The Iranians and Syrians themselves take noi part in this conflict.

And thats fine. I asked a question and you answered it. As for Syria and Iran, you're entitled to your opinion. However just as the US is involved by supplying israel, so too are Iran & Syria for supplying Hezbollah. Personally, I believe Syria to be the main backer of Hezbollah and this conflict, but thats my opinion.

Klaz wrote:

I've never said the numbers don't matter. I've never asked you not to protest about it. But if you're going to protest about civilian deaths, would you not also protest about Israeli civilians killed.

Infront wrote:

the man who is pro Israelis is accusing us of taking sides.

Really. I don't see anything in my comment that accuses you of choosing a side. If anything I'm asking you not to pick a side. I'm asking you to protest against ALL civilian deaths. Do you actually try to understand what I say?

Odd that the man that is pro-israel is arguing that you should protest against both sides.

You keep talking about boycotting Hezbollah and people keep explaining how this is impossible, yet you choose to keep insisting it without explaining how it would be remotely possible, and pushing the pro-Hezbollah argument when people are telling you they are not pro-hezbollah, and yet we are the ones who have the problem? Do you have any interest in boycotting Israel, which is what this thread is about?

No, I keep talking about protesting against Hezbollah. The boycotting came later, and I responded to peoples desire to boycott Israel. I haven't kept talking about it except in responses to other peoples comments to me.

Me Boycott? nope. I've said this already. However I asked a question about the people who want to boycott Israel. I haven't told you not to boycott. I just asked a question.

And back to the pro-Hezbollah accusations which I have not accused anybody of. Jesus.

New_Departure06 wrote:

LOL The Israelis are bombing indiscriminately and that is obvious. They bombed a truck filled with fruit according to reports yesterday.

I love this. Can't you believe for one second that mistakes happen? Sure, there have been many mistakes, which can happen in war, as we've seen in just about every theatre of war. Or do you believe that everything is planned perfectly? Human nature ensures that mistakes will happen.

I'm not a supporter of the Israeli Air campaign, but sometimes I wonder if ye guys believe the IDF know everything, and are rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of taking out something of no military value, loving the political backlash, and using a weapon likely more expensive that the target.

Perhaps a bit of common sense would be useful.

You fall for it every time obviously. A report in the Jerusalem Post carried a claim Gen. Dan Halutz has ordered 10 high rise appartment blocks to be bombed for every Katyusha Hezbollah fires into Haifa. This is 10 eyes for an eye, 10 teeth for a teeth. It is collective punishment.

I've seen hundreds of claims during this conflict, from both sides. Some are possible, and some are downright stupid. Show me some evidence, before I start believing these claims.

InFront

Deleted User wrote:

And thats fine. I asked a question and you answered it. As for Syria and Iran, you're entitled to your opinion. However just as the US is involved by supplying israel, so too are Iran & Syria for supplying Hezbollah. Personally, I believe Syria to be the main backer of Hezbollah and this conflict, but thats my opinion.

No, I keep talking about protesting against Hezbollah. The boycotting came later, and I responded to peoples desire to boycott Israel. I haven't kept talking about it except in responses to other peoples comments to me.

Me Boycott? nope. I've said this already. However I asked a question about the people who want to boycott Israel. I haven't told you not to boycott. I just asked a question.

And back to the pro-Hezbollah accusations which I have not accused anybody of. Jesus.

Peace be upon Him:) I think that clear things up a bit better. I will gladly protest against Hezbollah if there is a way to do it.

I will protest against both sides as effectively as I can. Against Israel this will be the boycott (I know you dont agree that's effective). Gladly I will try and look for a nother effective one against Hezbollah but I dont know of it. If you want to suggest an effective protest against Hezbollah I would be (genuinely) grateful. Im not going to argue against you if you suggest boycott Iran, but I really would like to hear of a good protest against Hezbollah, boycott or not.

oscarBravo

The Corinthian wrote:

Why is it not acceptable?

Because - for all its flaws - the current regime in Tel Aviv is not National Socialist, and there is no Israeli Reich. More fundamentally, because it's trolling, which is not allowed on this forum. Equally I won't accept terms such as "Islamofascist".

Pejoratives are unhelpful. If parallels are there to be drawn, they can be drawn in a reasoned manner.

This post marks the end of the discussion on moderation in this thread. If anyone feels a need to discuss it further, PM me or take it up on Feedback (or the "discussion on the rules" thread).

DadaKopf

Which protest is this thread about? The IPSC protest, shadow SWP protests or the Trócaire protest?

Personally, I decided not to join a sectarian event. The Trócaire protest called on both sides to end the violence, so I supported it.

I want peas, but the best way to get peas isn't with a knife.

New_Departure06

I've seen hundreds of claims during this conflict, from both sides. Some are possible, and some are downright stupid. Show me some evidence, before I start believing these claims.

A link on the specific claim I made about the 10 for 1 has already been placed earlier on on this forum though perhaps not on this thread.

InFront

InFront wrote:

Peace be upon Him:) I think that clear things up a bit better. I will gladly protest against Hezbollah if there is a way to do it.

I will protest against both sides as effectively as I can. Against Israel this will be the boycott (I know you dont agree that's effective). Gladly I will try and look for a nother effective one against Hezbollah but I dont know of it. If you want to suggest an effective protest against Hezbollah I would be (genuinely) grateful. Im not going to argue against you if you suggest boycott Iran, but I really would like to hear of a good protest against Hezbollah, boycott or not.

Heh. Thats exactly the kind of response I was looking for. Whew. Alot of writing. lol.

New_Departure06 wrote:

A link on the specific claim I made about the 10 for 1 has already been placed earlier on on this forum though perhaps not on this thread.

I'll take a look for it. Regardless you use the word, "claim". If there was proof I assume you would have posted it. There seems to be alot of wild claims and propaganda exclaimations floating around actions in this conflict. Most of which have no evidence to back it up. And this is coming from both the Israel side and the Hezbollah side.

Personally I believe Hezbollah have quite a degree of control over the media as opposed to Israel, but thats another thread.

smk135

gandalf wrote:

Your best means of protest is to stop buying Isreali produce and tell the manager of your supermarket that you are. If they don't have a choice of a non isreali produce ask them to.

I'll be watching what I buy very closely from now onwards.

it's so so great to hear people reacting in this way because it is so important and it DOES make a difference.
the EU refuse to trade with Syria under the pretext that their government doesn't respect human rights. It's then a piss take to go and trade with the Israeliens who haven't repsected any human rights or international laws to date...
SO boycotting their products is actually very relevant and usefull, fair play

gandalf

Lads this thread has gone seriously off topic. If you want to discuss the situation use the appropiate thread for it please !!

Megan85

I've seen that many people here are anti-Israeli but I hope that you won't kill me for giving my opinion,I'm sorts of pro-Israeli myself,I lived in Israel for about five years before I moved to Ireland and have many friends who inform me on what is going on over there,I don't know why but many news papers and TV news here only show one point of view and make it look as if Israel is complitely evil and their actions are totally unjust and even though I agree that Israel should cease fire because that's unfair towards innocent civillians,yet I understand that all they do is trying to defend their country againt future attacks,they don't want to live under constant danger that Hezbolla would find a stronger weapon, I mean many of terrorist organizations always promise to wipe Israel off the face of earth,how would you react if such a thing was said about your country?I again repeat I'm not trying to say that Israel is right right now,but only that I can understand their feelings too.

As for not buying their products,I don't care which country sells,only that it is good and Israeli products are usually very tasty:D more than that some of the things that I love can come only from Israel.

Take Care and God bless
Megan

jimmycrackcorm

Megan85 wrote:

I don't know why but many news papers and TV news here only show one point of view and make it look as if Israel is complitely evil and their actions are totally unjust

Perhaps because for every child that Hizbollah kill with their rockets, Israel kills twenty in return?

The_Conductor

If you're counting children- its closer to 50:1 than 20:1.
Overall ratio would be roughly 25:1

Sesshoumaru

smccarrick wrote:

If you're counting children- its closer to 50:1 than 20:1.
Overall ratio would be roughly 25:1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vPAkc5CLgc

Are these the children you are talking about? The corpes Hezbollahs stage manager likes to parade around in front of the cameras. I wouldn't believe any casualty figures coming out of that country. I've seen too much evidence of Hezbollah running an extremely efficient propaganda war.

Hobbes

Sesshoumaru wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vPAkc5CLgc

Are these the children you are talking about? The corpes Hezbollahs stage manager likes to parade around in front of the cameras. I wouldn't believe any casualty figures coming out of that country. I've seen too much evidence of Hezbollah running an extremely efficient propaganda war.

Ooh right, so no children are being killed? So he stages himself for the press are you saying hes not holding dead children?

Yes the guy is an asshole but it doesn't detract from the numerous dead children so far. I know some people would love it to though.

New_Departure06

Megan85 wrote:

I've seen that many people here are anti-Israeli but I hope that you won't kill me for giving my opinion,I'm sorts of pro-Israeli myself,I lived in Israel for about five years before I moved to Ireland and have many friends who inform me on what is going on over there,I don't know why but many news papers and TV news here only show one point of view and make it look as if Israel is complitely evil and their actions are totally unjust and even though I agree that Israel should cease fire because that's unfair towards innocent civillians,yet I understand that all they do is trying to defend their country againt future attacks,they don't want to live under constant danger that Hezbolla would find a stronger weapon, I mean many of terrorist organizations always promise to wipe Israel off the face of earth,how would you react if such a thing was said about your country?I again repeat I'm not trying to say that Israel is right right now,but only that I can understand their feelings too.

As for not buying their products,I don't care which country sells,only that it is good and Israeli products are usually very tasty:D more than that some of the things that I love can come only from Israel.

Take Care and God bless
Megan

Megan I am wondering are you American because that view is probably widespread over there because of the influence of the Christian Right, who believe support of Israel to be a religious duty? Is that why you support them? If so I think you are misguided.

Sesshoumaru

Hobbes wrote:

Ooh right, so no children are being killed? So he stages himself for the press are you saying hes not holding dead children?

Yes the guy is an asshole but it doesn't detract from the numerous dead children so far. I know some people would love it to though.

I said I don't believe the casualty figures coming out of that country. Hezbollah are clearly fighting a propaganda war as much a conventional guerrilla war. They also have complete control over the areas where reporters are trying to cover the war. Is it unfair of me to doubt the figures considering they come from an area controlled by a terrorist organisation? Here is another example.

Thats not saying I don't believe innocent civilians are dying. Of course they have been killed, children included. Its regretable that Hezbollah choose's to hide behind human shields. But from their point of view every dead child is a great propaganda victory as the corpse can be paraded around in front of the Western press.

bug

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I said I don't believe the casualty figures coming out of that country. Hezbollah are clearly fighting a propaganda war ...

as are Israel. But they were kinda of losing after Qana.

Sky news only ever states israeli casualties, never mentioning how many of them are soldiers V civilians.

the day after Qana...the whole ten minute special on Sky which was repeated continuously... showing how well dressed Israelis in a therepy session in Israel drew pictures to express their torment at Katushas landing near them didnt really win me. I realised that they had someone to call at least.

They also have complete control over the areas where reporters are trying to cover the war.

Really? so reporters arent speaking to civilians at all?

Is it unfair of me to doubt the figures considering they come from an area controlled by a terrorist organisation? Here is another example

Its not unfair, but its an opinion and just that, as is that blog.

Thats not saying I don't believe innocent civilians are dying. Of course they have been killed, children included. Its regretable that Hezbollah choose's to hide behind human shields.

If they had tanks and nuclear armery and were as well equipped as Israel they wouldnt be firing rockets from villages. And perhaps if Israel gave the poor villagers enough time to evacute (and maybe some means and left bridges to do so) then they wouldnt be holding up kids as human shields (as they are apparently.

Im sorry but Im being the devils advocate here. Since that post was completely one-sided.

Sesshoumaru

I wouldn't describe myself as pro israeli bug. I am just horrified at how much anti israeli sentiment is expressed here. People here seem to take what they see on the western media as gospel. I'm just trying to balance the scales here a little

Ping Chow Chi

bug wrote:

as are Israel. But they were kinda of losing after Qana.

Sky news only ever states israeli casualties, never mentioning how many of them are soldiers V civilians.

The Sun is even worse, they have stopped splitting the casualty figures between Isreal and Lebanon now. They just lump them up into one figure, when reading an article they wrote on Friday you would be forgivin for thinking that Hezbullah had killed all 1100 people.

I stopped buying products from Isreal a far time ago, though I doubt it will have any effect at all,

bug

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I am just horrified at how much anti israeli sentiment is expressed here. People here seem to take what they see on the western media as gospel. I'm just trying to balance the scales here a little

If everyone took what the western mainstream media say as gospel, we could all believe for example that "terrorists are afraid of freedom"... whatever that actually means, and listen to the reitterated bulls*it spewed at us every day through various newpapers which should be only used as dog bedding.

IMO we would be pro-israel, and their "defensive" position, if we listened whole heartedly, and some of us don't, in so much as we also realise that both sides of this particular conflict feed us their own propaganda.

fallout_girl

what megan and sesshoumar said....
following the discussions on boards i am surprised about the general anti-israeli attitude here.
do i agree with israeli reactions? no. do i think that they are ott? yes. can i nevertheless understand why they react like this? absolutely.
people seem to think that if israel and lebanon (israel and palestine) just get their act together and talk and sort things out it will be fine. this unfortunately is not possible as confirmed in the past. palestine and lebanese leaders clearly stated that they will never accept israel and will not stop until the borders of 1948 are restored.
israel gave parts of palestine up (against the will of jewish settlers who have been living there for years) and still rockets hit israel. rockets which were fired from civilian houses. same in the westbank, same in the south of lebanon.
instead of going on about we all should boycott israel and how israel is completely unreasonable it would at this point be very refreshing to hear what in fact a country is supposed to do to protect its people from constant bomb attacks inside its borders and verbal attacks from surrounding countries who refuse to acknowledge this country's borders...

Ping Chow Chi

fallout_girl wrote:

israel gave parts of palestine up (against the will of jewish settlers who have been living there for years) and still rockets hit israel. rockets which were fired from civilian houses. same in the westbank, same in the south of lebanon.

They only gave up the posts in Gaza because they where scared that they may have had to absorb the whole of Gaza and the muslim population that live there.

my gripe started with this though http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/analysis/99544.stm

Which is before the resent troubles flared up.

Blazer

I'd laugh at this thread except that people are getting killed while we speak.
There are some very anti-israeli people on here as well as some pro israel..for the people that are anti-war you can protest against both camps...At the Israeli and Lebanese embassies..
Hezbullah is in Lebanon, part of the lebanese government so hence you can protest to both embassies and boycott products from both countries...
but of course I'm willing to bet that some of the blinkered anti-israeli people on here will chose to ignore the below info..

The nearest lebanese embassy is in London..address below + plus email so no excuses
Lebanon
Embassy of Lebanon
15-21 Palace Garden Mews
London W8 4RA
Tel: 004420 7229 7265
Fax: 004420 7243 1699

Email: emb.leb@btinternet.com


Israeli embassy
Israel
Embassy of Israel
Carrisbrook House
122 Pembroke Road
Dublin 4
Tel: 01 230 9400
Fax: 01 230 9446
E.Mail: info@dublin.mfa.gov.il

pork99

fallout_girl wrote:

what megan and sesshoumar said....
following the discussions on boards i am surprised about the general anti-israeli attitude here.
do i agree with israeli reactions? no. do i think that they are ott? yes. can i nevertheless understand why they react like this? absolutely.
people seem to think that if israel and lebanon (israel and palestine) just get their act together and talk and sort things out it will be fine. this unfortunately is not possible as confirmed in the past. palestine and lebanese leaders clearly stated that they will never accept israel and will not stop until the borders of 1948 are restored.

I think that the anti-Israeli bias here is due to the demographics of boards.ie, a disproportionate number of male 18-30 yo students who tend to be politically left wing and to uncritically swallow anything that falls from the lips of the charlatan Noam Chomsky. (I know the type very well as I was one myself.)

The Left's sympathy for Islamist terrorist movements like Hezbollah reminds me of the Left's cosying up to Hitler at the time of the Hitler-Stalin pact in 1938-41. Also we have seen all this before during the Iranian revolution in 1979 when an alliance of left wing radicals and religious fundamentalists overthrew the Shah. Of course once the people who ran the country for the Shah had been eliminated who was the next group the Ayatollahs put in front of the firing sqauds? That's right, their erstwhile Lefty allies! (btw some very unsavoury individuals can see the parallels between Nazism and Islamicist terrorism even if most nice liberal people cannot)

Of course if Hezbollah/Hamas/Al Quada stopped fighting tomorrow there would be peace. If the Israelis stopped fighting they would be exterminated. Israel is a country with very little "strategic depth", it's a small country which could be over-run by an invader very quickly. Consequently the Israelis cannot trade space for time when dealing with an aggressor hence their strategy of disproportionate response to an attack.

This worked very well for them 30 or 40 years ago when the main threat was Egyptian and Syrian armoured divisions coming over the Sinai and the Golan Heights. However nowadays they face a very different threat. What we are facing now is a "fourth generation" war waged by non-state agencies. I fear that the Israelis (and the US and UK in Iraq and Afghanistan) are like the French army sitting behind the Maginot line in 1940 expecting to re-fight WW1 while the Islamist terrorists are the Panzer divisions sneaking in through the undefended flank.

I suspect that the Israelis have failed to develop adequate responses and these strategies have now become a liability to Israel on the PR/moral fronts - fronts which are just as important as what happens on the battlefield in 4G warfare. Never mind that Hezbollah are using civilians as human shields - every unintentional killing of civilians by the IDF is a huge propaganda victory for Hezbollah.

The_Conductor

pork99 wrote:

I think that the anti-Israeli bias here is due to the demographics of boards.ie, a disproportionate number of male 18-30 yo students who tend to be politically left wing and to uncritically swallow anything that falls from the lips of the charlatan Noam Chomsky. (I know the type very well as I was one myself.)

I beg to differ. First of all-I am against the guerilla warfare of Hezbollah, and also against the unilateral tactics of the Israeli Defense Forces- I view the actions of both as terrorist activities. I am not in your age group- and I have been to Israel, Gaza and Lebanon in the past and am quite familiar with the situation on a ground level, along with the sorry history of the place. Personally I believe the main reason for the anti-Israeli bias that tends to permeate here- is the apparent David-v-Golliath battle of 1 group of people who quite clearly are disposessed of their lands and property versus on the other hand a group of people who claim their bunker mentality is a recognition of the fact that they are fighting for the right to survive. Unfortunately the arguments of both groups of people are entirely correct- there are those who would like nothing more than to wipe Israel off the face of the map- likewise- Israel itself was founded on zionist terrorism- the British deserting their "Protectorate of Palestine" when their mandate was at odds with a protracted bombing campaign...... I have a friend who married an Irish woman he had never met- just so that as the husband of a Christian he would be allowed to buy a small guest house in Jerusalem (in the Arab quarter....) Sectarianism is rife- the whole place is a powder keg and everyone is egging each other on, trying to provoke each other and make the other side look worse to the international community.The whole place is a sodding disaster...... The thought of 12,000 French troups in Lebanon doesn't even sound good- when you think back to the fact that it was a joint effort between the Brits, the French and the Israelis to try to stop Nasser from nationalising the Suez canal- they are not exactly the most loved of nations in the arab world.......
Short of the international community accepting that the whole place is a powder keg and accepting that much of the territorities (including Jerusalem, Gaza, The West Bank, The Golan, Lebanon, Syria) would have to be forever occuppied by peacekeepers- we will be back in this situation again, another day.......

Whats the point of not buying Israeli oranges- they were most probably grown and sorted by Arab labour- its not a protest against Israel per se. You may as well go to your local garage and demand they tell you the provenance of their petrol- odds are it may very well be Iranian......

Roll on ceasefire......

Jimboo_Jones

smccarrick wrote:

Whats the point of not buying Israeli oranges- they were most probably grown and sorted by Arab labour- its not a protest against Israel per se.

The same thing could have been said about South Africa though and the boycott over their products.