Pray for Peace in ME | War and spirituality a conflict ?

joseph dawton

It looks like the situation could unravel if conflict does not end soon. A wider war could easily begin, which apart from causing death and misery in the region could mean no oil for the West which would cause chaos in Europe and America and perhaps even more violence.

I urge all those who believe in peace over war, diplomacy over aggression to pray for an end to the hostilities. I think this could be a pivotal moment in world history, I only hope it doesn't spiral out of control.

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Nevyn

See I would have a problem with personall as my patron deity is one of war and battles.
I do not agree with the suffering inflicted on noncombatant and the civilian populations at large and the cowardly underhand tatics used by all those invovled I would not be one to pray for peace or gobal peace as I do not see it as being possible, pratical or needed.

Sometimes wars are needed, sometimes death is needed.
There are many lessons that we need as we move from life to life and who is to say what is going on in the middle east is part of that.

The honour is gone from a lot of 'combat' and the lifes of the fallen on both sides are not honoured anymore which lessens each death and lessens us all imho.

King Mob

war has never been honourable, never
combat rarely so.
it wasn't shining knights clashing on horse back then dying clean.
it was a bunch of kids and farmers runing into a rain of arrows and walls of pikes and dying 6 hours later in the mud and blood after losing your leg to some cocky rich kid on a flashy horse.
the battles were always over someone's greed nothing else (money land slaves whatever)
of course if you survived the battle there was always the pilaging and raping the locals.
war is never pretty honourable or fair anyone who says any different is fooling themselves.

Nevyn

Blood to make the crops grow.

King Mob

nope water, sun, penlty of nutrients and a little pesticide make the crops grow. beside if there was a battle in a corn field the crop would be destroyed.
thats what i don't like about some areas of paganism.
the gods must be appised!!
worse the fundimentalism i swear!

Nevyn

I can never see a time were there will not be war somewhere on this planet.
I think it is a worth while lofty goal and idea but I can't see it happening.

King Mob

i never said war was unnessesry or avoidable. i said it wasn't nice it isn't honourable and shouldn't be worshipped in any form.
its always possible to obtain world peace. just not easy.

John Vi

World peace is not ever going to happen. Why would it? It's a good money making and great at kickstarting the economy.
You pasfist's are all the same. War is wrong. Love and Hugs. World peace.
Humans are evil creatures and that is that. Look at the news sunday night to see how many people are killed here in Ireland alone.

Fighting is in our nature as it is the animals. It is survival. Only the strongest will survive and that is it. Whats the point of hiding your head in the sand? Its either kill or be killed and I'd rather kill.

joseph dawton

Death is part of life, yes there is an ugly side to human nature and indeed all nature, that should not be ignored. I agree with King Mob though that it is foolish and unfitting for these times to glorify war and I also agree there is no honour in war and if there ever was it ceased many centuries ago. I doubt that little good can come of ME conflict, I cannot think of a single war that benefitted mankind, certainly a few individuals benefit but for the majority it brings, death, heartbreak, disease, poverty and famine.

As for pagan heroes - Cu Chullain, Achillies etc were around some 2k+ years ago and they were well capable of barbarous acts even with the constraints of 'honour' one must remember that all these legends have a certain amount of poetic licence they glorify their people and their deeds and their gods, more or less the opposite of a moralistic tale of the horrors of war.

To those that think it's all great fun - have you ever seen a dead body? have you ever killed an animal or a person? Have you ever been the victim of serious violence or witnessed a killing or a beating? I can answer yes to all the above except killing a person. If the answer is no to all the above then you know nothing of death - how can you justify reverence of battle/war and associated dieties?

I would rather kill than be killed but I chose to use violence and aggression only in defence of myself and those I love. We all have the power to choose how we deal with situations, I think that if we continue violence as a way of life we will be exterminated as we are destroying the planet as well as each other.

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Nevyn

joseph dawton wrote:

Death is part of life, yes there is an ugly side to human nature and indeed all nature, that should not be ignored. I agree with King Mob though that it is foolish and unfitting for these times to glorify war and I also agree there is no honour in war and if there ever was it ceased many centuries ago. I doubt that little good can come of ME conflict, I cannot think of a single war that benefitted mankind, certainly a few individuals benefit but for the majority it brings, death, heartbreak, disease, poverty and famine.

There have been many inventions, technolgy and advances in medicine which would not have happend if not for wars. Womens sufferage would not have happen if Rosey wasn't needed to take up the rivet gun during world wars one and two. It was the rationing that brought about the rise in public health.

joseph dawton wrote:

To those that think it's all great fun - have you ever seen a dead body? have you ever killed an animal or a person? Have you ever been the victim of serious violence or witnessed a killing or a beating? I can answer yes to all the above except killing a person.

I have never said it was fun.
I have seen serval dead bodies and not sanitised in coffins.
I have sat and watched people die and all that could be done was to hold thier hand
or to at least witness thier passing, these have been both peacefull and horrendus.
I have killed and cleaned animals.
I have been assulted and sexually assualted and defended myself to the extend that I needed to get away and live and not be raped.
I have stepped in to difuse fights.
I have held someones intestines in after seeing them attacked with a knife feeling their blood on my hand growing colder as we waited for an ambulance.
I have on finding some one I despised having overdosed on herion then given grave consideration as to ring 999 to rescue them
or to wait until they were passed help and then ring spare thier family many things.

I think it is arrogant to assume to where or what other peoples may have lead them.

joseph dawton wrote:

I would rather kill than be killed but I chose to use violence and aggression only in defence of myself and those I love. We all have the power to choose how we deal with situations, I think that if we continue violence as a way of life we will be exterminated as we are destroying the planet as well as each other.

For us in the so called civilsed countries but the rest of the world is not there yet.

joseph dawton wrote:

If the answer is no to all the above then you know nothing of death - how can you justify reverence of battle/war and associated dieties?

There are many types of war and many types of battles the most fericest fought and hardest won are in the soul/heart/mind of a person.

King Mob

There are many types of war and many types of battles the most fericest fought and hardest won are in the soul/heart/mind of a person.

so what did you mean by:

Blood to make the crops grow.

?

even after what you have seen who can you think war is honourable.
it's basicly the things you listed 1 million times over.

joseph dawton

I can see you've not arrived at your opinion in a whimsical fashion, and I can respect that. However, I still cannot say I agree, I don't think the gains you mention outweigh the terrible cost. With peace in europe for so long we have forgotten the misery of war and poverty.

I think we have to find some way to evolve our consciousness beyond the baboon-like savagery many of us are cursed with. We have the intellect to to great things but not the emotional control or clarity of vision to use our abilities for the common good. I think this is our greatest weakness as a species and could be our undoing.

John Vi

Thaedydal wrote:

I have never said it was fun.
I have seen serval dead bodies and not sanitised in coffins.
I have sat and watched people die and all that could be done was to hold thier hand
or to at least witness thier passing, these have been both peacefull and horrendus.
I have killed and cleaned animals.
I have been assulted and sexually assualted and defended myself to the extend that I needed to get away and live and not be raped.
I have stepped in to difuse fights.
I have held someones intestines in after seeing them attacked with a knife feeling their blood on my hand growing colder as we waited for an ambulance.
I have on finding some one I despised having overdosed on herion then given grave consideration as to ring 999 to rescue them
or to wait until they were passed help and then ring spare thier family many things.

What are you on about?

El_mariachi

your all a shower of commi's

death to the weak... like nature planned it .... hahaha

Nevyn

and you are banned.

John Vi

Am i not going to get an answer Thaedydal? and why did you edit my post?

Nevyn

John Vi wrote:

What are you on about?

I was answering the questions posed by Joesph if you read his posts you will see that. Oh and I don't have to answer questions which are personal unless I choose to like any other poster.

I didnt' edit your last post I was trying to quote from it and when you mod a forum the and the are side by side and I pressed the wrong button. Opps! but I didn't make any changes to it.

joseph dawton wrote:

However, I still cannot say I agree,

Everyone has thier own journey and comes to their own conculsions I certainly don't expect people to agree with my point of view the world would be very boring if that was the case.

joseph dawton wrote:

I don't think the gains you mention outweigh the terrible cost.

What cost ? the loss of life ? or the anguished suffered ?

I believe in reincarations and there are many life journeys our soul must make and they don't all have to be pleasant. We could be ment to have a life time as a soilder and another as the grieving mother/widow left behind.

joseph dawton wrote:

With peace in europe for so long we have forgotten the misery of war and poverty.

I agree, there are many ways that europe is getting far to complancent and people are getting far to comfortible in thier modren lives which can have verry little struggle.

joseph dawton wrote:

I think we have to find some way to evolve our consciousness beyond the baboon-like savagery many of us are cursed with. We have the intellect to to great things but not the emotional control or clarity of vision to use our abilities for the common good. I think this is our greatest weakness as a species and could be our undoing.

I would think that we can not hide such aspects of ourselves under the carpet and ignore them.
It hink we have to know what we are capible for good or ill and ignoring the darker aspects of ourselves and life can be imho dangerous.
We strive to talk between the two pillars.

John Vi

Oh ok I am sorry if i was rude!

MeditationMom

by Joseph Dawson- I would rather kill than be killed but I chose to use violence and aggression only in defence of myself and those I love.

Isn't this where the US and Europe are coming from? What would you use to defend yourself? Your arms? Countries also use their arms and armies.

If you have to fight back, for the reasons you mention above, you might as well take pride in it, fight skillfully and honorably, instead of brutish and dishonorably. That doesn't make war glorious and honorable, but the quality of the fighting should be.

The problem is that both sides feel justified, honorable, guided by God, and that they are defending themselves. "Who started this?" - do you have kids? the answer to that one is - it doesn't matter. Everybody stop right now and go to their room! I am with you on that.

Well, that is not going to happen. It is going to be a fight to the end and there is no use preaching against war or fighting, since it is already in progress. Pick sides, fight well so it ends sooner, or move to the monastery and pray for everyone's peace. That too, helps and is noble. But just objecting to an ongoing war because you love peace does not make sence. We all object to this war. Who wants war? Ask any divorce lawyer and you'll learn that love and hate are two side of the same phenomena. So is war and peace. I predict a great love affair between the ME and the West when this is over. So many misunderstandings and so much to discover about each other. Just like Germany, Japan and the US.
If you love peace you need to demonstrate peace within yourself to others. How come so many people confuse being anti-something with being peaceful?

Wars have accomplished a lot of justice, freedom and peace in the world, as ugly and as unfortunate as they are, and yes we should find better ways - tell that to the terrorists, though. If the West stops tomorrow, this war is not over. If the terrorists and their buddies stop tomorrow, it is.
Once we have one peaceful, united world, we'll have to find new enemies. They are more valuable than friends I have heard said.

The other day I was thinking about the violence and cruelty that is visited on children and animals in this world everywhere - the statistics are too much for the human heart to take - and a good old fashioned war between grown men for freedom, or oil, if you want to argue that, seemed almost refreshing. I don't need this kind of refreshment, but lets face it, there are far uglier things going on this world than a war. If we want to be cynical and say it is all about the oil, well so be it then. I don't think it that simple, though. There is far more than oil at stake here.

joseph dawton

One has to remember how this all started...

After Britain defeated the Otoman empire they took over Palestine. After a campaign of terror from Jewish separatists the government finally gave in and Israel was created in 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence

The British and Americans have totally messed up the middle east during the 1900s and continue to do so because of oil interests. As far as I can see honour does not come into it as far as western reasons for involvement - economics and political expediency is the reason. The honourable thing to do would be to bring all the troops home! The Arabs want to live their lives in their own land in peace without foreign interference, until the western powers go away and Israel gives back the land stolen in the 1960s from Syria, Lebanon and Palestine there will always be no lasting peace.

Arabs fighting for their freedom and rights in their own land are called terrorists by western media but Israel, Britain and US are defined as legitimate despite their crimes against the arabs. Just one example: the British RAF invented napalm the 1920s and tested it on the Iraqi Kurds.

Who are the real terrorists here?

Nevyn

Wars have been started over less, even for just the sake of one bull.
There is also the idea that wars are a way of population control.
It is the idea of having a standing army or as it was at the time a warrior class that has shaped the way the world is now.
A warrior class needed someone else to tend the feilds and cattle, to craft the swords and sheilds this lead to what was our agri based culture which was the start of a production way of life and then on into industires and a work force.

Schuhart

Thaedydal wrote:

It is the idea of having a standing army or as it was at the time a warrior class that has shaped the way the world is now.

I’ve no problem with the idea that society evolves, events have consequences and that the world we stand in today and whatever good we have is the outcome of the past, which might and probably does involve at least one ancestor standing over the body of a defeated enemy.

But does this idea of a cult based on a war god it actually have any practical implications? Would someone following such a cult actually say ‘Forget that oul Good Friday Agreement. Last man standing gets the whole province.’

It left me thinking of that apocryphal story about Diogenes rolling his barrel up and down the street while all around him Athenians were rushing about preparing for a war. When, inevitably, someone asked him what he was doing he said, “I want to be busy too.”

MeditationMom wrote:

Wars have accomplished a lot of justice, freedom and peace in the world, as ugly and as unfortunate as they are, and yes we should find better ways

This is one of the most sensible and thought provoking posts that I’ve read in a long time. I hate even trying to compress it by zeroing in on one point. I don’t think it’s the final word, but it’s a fair step on the road.

joseph dawton wrote:

One has to remember how this all started. After Britain defeated the Otoman empire they took over Palestine. After a campaign of terror from Jewish separatists the government finally gave in and Israel was created in 1948.

I think you know that assigning blame is really just about editing the context. It is true that Zionist terrorism played a role, including people who went on to hold high office in the Israeli Government. Someone else would put it in the context of the aftermath of the Holocaust.

None of that is crucially important now, as both Israelis and Palestinians will refuse to vanish into a fold of history.

Nevyn

What war cult ?
God's that have a war aspect to them have other aspects as well and in many cases the are more defensive then offensive.

Actually it is not a case of last man standing to do with the "war" up north.
The island of Ireland is ment to be at war amoungst it'self until the mother of Mechi lifts her curse and that will not be done until she is finished grieving.

MeditationMom

by schuhart- This is one of the most sensible and thought provoking posts that I’ve read in a long time. I hate even trying to compress it by zeroing in on one point. I don’t think it’s the final word, but it’s a fair step on the road.

Thank you - happy to hear that.

by josephdawton Who are the real terrorists here?

You decide! But decide!

Schuhart

Thaedydal wrote:

God's that have a war aspect to them have other aspects as well and in many cases the are more defensive then offensive.

Clearly you’ll understand this stuff better than me. However, the idea the god’s war outlook is mostly defensive does not seem to present a barrier in principle to praying for peace.

Thaedydal wrote:

The island of Ireland is ment to be at war amoungst it'self until the mother of Mechi lifts her curse and that will not be done until she is finished grieving.

I'm very sorry for her trouble, even if this belief is the most baroque affectation I've come across in a long time.

Nevyn

There are those who do belive that the Morrigan still hold some sway over this land, I would not consider that to be convoluted and obsolete.

joseph dawton

I find it kind of amusing sometimes - the thugees who were devoted to Kali were not nice people they were murderous! They were renowned for battering people to death with coins inside a stocking, a weapon easily dismantled and a swift exit made! They gave rise to the English word Thug! I'm sure there's plenty of fluffy "occult lite" types invoking Kali or The Mórrígan willy-nilly as I write this, not knowing anything about what they are really dealing with.

The Mórrígan, Sekhmet, Kali and their male counterparts are not lovely fluffy gods to be trifled with. Nowhere have a read a myth that has any of these gods involved in something 'nice' - always death, vengence, disaster!
Unless violence and anger are a big part of your life I cannot for the life of me see why anyone would make them the main focus or a large part of their spiritual path.

I realise that Mórrígan together with Badb and Macha makes a triad of three warlike goddesses with other aspects such as sexuality, and of course one needs to look at our darker side as well as the light. But even so it's a bit far fetched being set for battle as we trundle round Tesco getting the cornflakes isn't it? What place is there for their traditional roles in modern society I ask you?

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Schuhart

joseph dawton wrote:

But even so it's a bit far fetched being set for battle as we trundle round Tesco getting the cornflakes isn't it? What place is there for their traditional roles in modern society I ask you?

A striking image.

At the risk of labouring the point, presumably this religious outlook grew out of a time when there was a regular need to either bludgeon the people in the housing estate next to you, or be bludgeoned. An outlook accepting this reality as the natural order would be simply giving you the moral direction needed to get through the day. The equivalent today would be a public information campaign highlighting the dangers of drunk driving.

Reflecting on it, it provides context to the farce involved in someone with a modern Western background immersing themselves in militant Islamist ideology and taking a bomb onto a bus. All because Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire for the Xbox just isn't doing it for them.

Mick86

Thaedydal wrote:

Blood to make the crops grow.

Survival of the fittest.

joseph dawton wrote:

... I cannot think of a single war that benefitted mankind,

WW2 of course. Would you want the Nazis running Europe?

joseph dawton wrote:

But even so it's a bit far fetched being set for battle as we trundle round Tesco getting the cornflakes isn't it? What place is there for their traditional roles in modern society I ask you.

Even soldiers have to eat. And your analogy is not at all strange. The men that herded the Jews into gas chambers went home and played with their children or took the wife out to dinner. That's an extreme example but consider that aside from formal battle we live in an extremely violent society. Limerick for instance bears all the hallmarks of a battlefield, yet the people who engage in hideous violence also live ordinary lives like you and me.

Matthew Hopkins

joseph dawton wrote:

The Mórrígan, Sekhmet, Kali and their male counterparts are not lovely fluffy gods to be trifled with. Nowhere have a read a myth that has any of these gods involved in something 'nice' - always death, vengence, disaster!
Unless violence and anger are a big part of your life I cannot for the life of me see why anyone would make them the main focus or a large part of their spiritual path.

I realise that Mórrígan together with Badb and Macha makes a triad of three warlike goddesses with other aspects such as sexuality, and of course one needs to look at our darker side as well as the light. But even so it's a bit far fetched being set for battle as we trundle round Tesco getting the cornflakes isn't it? What place is there for their traditional roles in modern society I ask you?

I take it you have never been mugged on your way home from tesco then? We live in a time when the value of human life is at an all time low, currently there are more people involved in armed conflict than there were a thousand years ago in what we called The Dark Ages.. hundreds of years ago in the absence of law and order you could be killed for a few coins on the highway, and nowadays you can be killed on O'Connell Street for your Nike Trainers. Nothing has changed really. The war Goddesses are an inseperable aspect of the energy and makeup of deity and further reading will reveal that they all have balance, Sekhmet is a very good example of the ultimate duality in a Goddess form. She was the Goddess of war and pestilence, but she was also the Goddess of healing and sensuality and was the patroness of physicians, she is sometimes portrayed holding two knives, but they are ancient egyptian surgeons knives. Her battle rage was born out of love for her brother the god Amun Ra, who along with the rest of the Egyptian pantheon was facing annihalation from the race of mortals. What woman would not kill to protect her loved ones?
Personally I am a pacifist, but i am always ready to battle anything which threatens to harm me or those i love and if that situation presents itself i am glad to have the assistance of a deity like Sekhmet to see me through.

joseph dawton

I'm sorry but I don't think WW2 benefited anyone really (arguably the US benefited), millions died, the earth was ravaged for resources and greatly poluted by explosives, sinking of tankers, warships etc and it brought us new and more terrible munitions and methods and of course nuclear weapons, the birth of the USSR and it's satelites, the cold war etc. True it was necessary to remove the cancer of Nazism but it left the patient sick and wasted!

I agree Matthew about a place for these deities but I do not see a major role for their dark aspects in 'normal life' ie. when one is not being mugged. My point was that I would not make them the centre of my spiritual practice, I would revere Brighid as a more positive force and she would take precidence in my life over the Morrígan, that does not mean there is never an appropriate role for the Morrígan, I would call up her if I felt a genuine need. Surely for our very survival as a species we need to learn how to move away from conflict situations and become more cooperative than coersive?

What I have been trying to suggest is about balance, extreme forces/measures are sometimes necessary to restore harmony but I am mindful of keeping such things in check until they are required.

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