Waterford's latest swipe at our 'city'!

road_high

Was just purusing the papers of our surrounding neighbours and came across a not too subtle 'dig' Kilkenny as a city, implying that somehow Tramore has a bigger population than Kilkenny!!! The link is set out below for anyone who wishs to read it.
Lets just get a few facts facts straight here; the 'city' population they refer is that of Kilkenny Borough, i.e. the centre of Kilkenny and dates to 1861 and was never extended beyond that.
Funny how they fail to mention how Kilkenny 'rural', i.e. the suburban parts like Loughboy, Newpark etc grew by 13.3%, up from 13,542 to 15,342.
This equates to 23,842 the true total population of Kilkenny, just over half Waterfords 45,755.
Funny how statistics can be twisted inaccurately to please a paper's readership.
Oh and yes, the census was taken in Kilkenny 'out of season' too, just like everywhere else in Ireland.

http://www.munster-express.ie/news12.html

ecksor

I can't say I see what the big deal is. Lots of places have bigger populations than Kilkenny. Swords and Tallaght spring to mind.

Bards

mfitzy wrote:

Was just purusing the papers of our surrounding neighbours and came across a not too subtle 'dig' Kilkenny as a city, implying that somehow Tramore has a bigger population than Kilkenny!!! The link is set out below for anyone who wishs to read it.
Lets just get a few facts facts straight here; the 'city' population they refer is that of Kilkenny Borough, i.e. the centre of Kilkenny and dates to 1861 and was never extended beyond that.
Funny how they fail to mention how Kilkenny 'rural', i.e. the suburban parts like Loughboy, Newpark etc grew by 13.3%, up from 13,542 to 15,342.
This equates to 23,842 the true total population of Kilkenny, just over half Waterfords 45,755.
Funny how statistics can be twisted inaccurately to please a paper's readership.
Oh and yes, the census was taken in Kilkenny 'out of season' too, just like everywhere else in Ireland.

http://www.munster-express.ie/news12.html

and the area directly north of the suir is counted in Kilkenny's population stats when in fact it should be counted in Waterford City's... Ironic isn't it

ecksor

I still fail to see why anyone gives a damn?

mfitzy, you don't have to look any further than the misbehaviour of Waterford residents on this forum to see that they have a collective bee in their bonnets about Kilkenny's City status for some reason which I don't understand.

As you say:

mfitzy wrote:

Funny how statistics can be twisted inaccurately to please a paper's readership.

Bringing up the row here just leads to hordes of them descending and failing to comply with the charter.

Lump

I think we should bomb waterford....

fricatus

I'm a proud Déise buoy myself, but I just had to cringe when I saw that article in the Munster Express. I think it's pathetic frankly, that any of us have to snipe at a neighbouring city like that.

When anyone ever speaks to me about "Waterford town" I make sure to correct them. Quite why we have to purposely dole out the same insult to Kilkenny city is just beyond me.

Bards is right though, mfitzy. I've read a lot of your posts and to your credit you're very even handed where Waterford is concerned, but you're massaging the statistics yourself on this occasion by counting only the city council area. In the last census, the CSO issued a very helpful list of urban area populations that was not just based on city or borough council boundaries. Maybe they will do so again this time around, and settle this type of argument.

Spare a thought for poor Limerick: it's being treated as Ireland's fourth city after Galway with a population of about 52,000, whereas the real urban population is about 95,000.

Saruman

ecksor wrote:

I can't say I see what the big deal is. Lots of places have bigger populations than Kilkenny. Swords and Tallaght spring to mind.

This is not a good example.. Tallaght has a larger population than Limerick


Look any intelligent person knows you do not just count an official statistic as borders are always an issue here.. so relax about people saying Kilkenny is small.. well it is.. but its still a city.. No one can take that away.. Waterford while pretty.. is still tiny compared to any other city in this country.

Look at Dublin.. city itself has only a little over half a million but wen you take into account Dublin is a sprawling beast and most people live outside the official city boundaries then its closer to 2 million, well somewhere between 1.5m and 2m

fricatus

This is not a good example.. Tallaght has a larger population than Limerick

That's a myth. Tallaght's population is 64,292 (South Dublin areas 028-040 in the latest census).

Limerick city (council area) plus the county areas 051 and 052 (urban areas contiguous to the city) have a total population of 80,099. I'm sure the greater Limerick population is higher again, since more areas than these would be included. The figure I've seen is 93,000.

For the record, Dublin's population (the entire county) is 1,186,159. For some reason, the media like to say two million, which implies taking in most of Leinster.

I'm not bashing Dublin by the way, I live here and love the place. I just think the media as always are given to hyperbole, and that helps nobody.

Aquos76

kilkenny is not a city. get over it

Lump

But it is you see.

ecksor

Aquos76 wrote:

kilkenny is not a city. get over it

If only this hadn't been discussed to death over and over and over before ...

EKRIUQ

Whats the real pop of kilkenny city (Town)then??

road_high

Bards wrote:

and the area directly north of the suir is counted in Kilkenny's population stats when in fact it should be counted in Waterford City's... Ironic isn't it

CSO in shock plot to count all the population of County Kilkenny!!

jd

mfitzy wrote:

Lets just get a few facts facts straight here; the 'city' population they refer is that of Kilkenny Borough, i.e. the centre of Kilkenny and dates to 1861 and was never extended beyond that.

Waterford News and star has a similar article, whe the only include both WExford and Kilkenny's Borough populations-ancient boundaries. Frank Macdonald was at the same lark when he said Goreys population was increasing, while that of Wexford and Enniscorthy was declining..

road_high

fricatus wrote:

I'm a proud Déise buoy myself, but I just had to cringe when I saw that article in the Munster Express. I think it's pathetic frankly, that any of us have to snipe at a neighbouring city like that.

When anyone ever speaks to me about "Waterford town" I make sure to correct them. Quite why we have to purposely dole out the same insult to Kilkenny city is just beyond me.

Bards is right though, mfitzy. I've read a lot of your posts and to your credit you're very even handed where Waterford is concerned, but you're massaging the statistics yourself on this occasion by counting only the city council area. In the last census, the CSO issued a very helpful list of urban area populations that was not just based on city or borough council boundaries. Maybe they will do so again this time around, and settle this type of argument.

Spare a thought for poor Limerick: it's being treated as Ireland's fourth city after Galway with a population of about 52,000, whereas the real urban population is about 95,000.

Thanks for having respect for a neighbouring town/city, the south east needs attidudes like this if we are to prsoper and grow further.
In reference to south KK and the 'Waterford' part, I don't have any real problem with the people living there being included in Waterford's population for things like bidding for a university or decent infrastructure, but officially I would prefer them to remain part of Kilkenny as this area has been for centuries.

Bards

mfitzy wrote:

In reference to south KK and the 'Waterford' part, I don't have any real problem with the people living there being included in Waterford's population for things like bidding for a university or decent infrastructure, but officially I would prefer them to remain part of Kilkenny as this area has been for centuries.

That is exactly what I meant when I said that the CSO ignored the population immediatly to the north of Waterford, even though it is within the Waterford City's zone of influence.

Bards

jd wrote:

Waterford News and star has a similar article, whe the only include both WExford and Kilkenny's Borough populations-ancient boundaries. Frank Macdonald was at the same lark when he said Goreys population was increasing, while that of Wexford and Enniscorthy was declining..

Well if we are on the topic of ancient boundaries etc. Kilkenny was a City in ancient times but is not according to the latest Government acts. Likewise when Kilkenny was a City in Ancient times Waterford's boundary extended way past the present boundary.

SO if Kilkenny want's to revert to ancient titles etc. Then they should likewise accept that Waterford's Boundary be also extended

Bards

Also, if Kilkenny wants to be a "City" how come it keesp entering the Tidy "TOWNS" competition... is it perhaps that you are a "town" and not a real "City"

from this weeks Kilkenny Advertiser...
===================================================
Let’s go for the big one, say council in Tidy Town battle
BY DECLAN VARLEY

Following the adjudication for the International Entente Florale competition, Kilkenny Borough Council is leading a determined bid to win the National Tidy Towns award for 2006.

Many seasoned campaigners have been supportive of the works carried out by Kilkenny Borough Council, with particularly encouraging comments on the environmental renewal works along John’s Quay, from John’s Bridge to Green’s Bridge.

Kilkenny people can now begin to appreciate the enhanced River walk which has been a traditional recreation area in Kilkenny.

The flood relief scheme afforded the opportunity to once again appreciate the amenity of the River Nore, and Kilkenny Borough Council has taken the opportunity to give this area back to the people for their enhanced enjoyment by carrying out landscaping in the area and returning it to its former glory.

Mayor Martin Brett said that he was delighted with the way this project has turned out.

“The people of Kilkenny deserve high standards and Kilkenny Borough Council is determined to take every opportunity to enhance amenity spaces for our citizens”

“Borough Council Foreman Michael Brennan together with Head Gardener Catherine Keoghan and their team are working tirelessly to ensure that Kilkenny will continue to look its best for the Tidy Towns adjudication. Floral displays and presentation of open spaces are all looking fantastic, and they hope that their efforts will bring rewards.

“I hope people can see and appreciate the effort and commitment of Kilkenny Borough Council staff. Floral displays such as those in High Street or at the Roundabouts approaching Kilkenny don’t just happen. The Parks department work year round to ensure that Kilkenny looks well at all times” said Director of Services, Tony Walsh.

The Mayor praised the community involvement and encouraged all those involved to continue to work for the good of Kilkenny – “ I would like to acknowledge the fine work carried out by the Keep Kilkenny Beautiful committee, and I would encourage all our citizens to take an active role in maintaining our beautiful city.”

ecksor

From http://www.oasis.gov.ie/environment/tidy_towns.html

Who can enter?

Entry into the Tidy Towns competition is voluntary and the competition is open to every village, town and city in Ireland.

I judge you to be trolling.

RE*AC*TOR

Do people really care that much if its called a "city" or a "town". Does the amount of people living in one place make it better than another?

What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet

Kilkenny is a lovely place, I also think Waterford is a nice place. Both have their merits and heritages - but they're not in competition with each other. (Cork took care of that ). If anything they should be working together to promote the region as a tourist spot.

Anyone who gets involved in this petty crap needs a head-examination.

Kilkenny Town, Waterford Town - who gives a crap?

road_high

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

Do people really care that much if its called a "city" or a "town". Does the amount of people living in one place make it better than another?

What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet

Kilkenny is a lovely place, I also think Waterford is a nice place. Both have their merits and heritages - but they're not in competition with each other. (Cork took care of that ). If anything they should be working together to promote the region as a tourist spot.

Anyone who gets involved in this petty crap needs a head-examination.

Kilkenny Town, Waterford Town - who gives a crap?

TBH I don't care all that much about KK's city status or not, I view it mainly as a tourist thing.And judging by the throngs of tourists in Kilkenny all through this summer they seem to certainly agree with you that it is a nice place too.I don't live in KK itself, but near enough to it.

I'm realistic about Kilkenny and it's standing in this country.Despite years of government neglect and indifference to the place it has somehow managed to prosper which is great.
KK is on the same kind of level status wise as Athlone, Sligo, Dundalk and perhaps Wexford towns as regards population, development etc.I would be happy to call KK a town if we could then have the same level of investment and infrastructure these towns have been afforded (except Wexford which suffers the same government indifference as KK, except when it had Brendan Howlin in office and he got the EPA and Dept of Agric. offices down there).Thses towns also are served by dual-carriageways, again something KK lacks.Sligo, Athlone Dundalk also have IT colleges- yes, you've guessed it KK doesn't have one of those either...
It is how KK is continually ignored by governemnt that really bugs me, not whether they call us a city or not.We sorely need a govt minister to deliver some kind of decent infrastructure and services.Just like what the other so-called towns I've mentioned already have.Voting in 3 FF TD's the last election cetainly didn't change things for the better after the last election either.


From reading this and many other threads on this website, it is clear to me that Waterford people are almost obsessive about their city status, and are constantly complaining that they are treated less favourably than their 'peer' cities of Galway, Cork, Limerick.
While there is a lot of merit in what they say, the treatment of Waterford is reflected across the whole south east region not just in that city.

merlante

mfitzy wrote:

From reading this and many other threads on this website, it is clear to me that Waterford people are almost obsessive about their city status, and are constantly complaining that they are treated less favourably than their 'peer' cities of Galway, Cork, Limerick.
While there is a lot of merit in what they say, the treatment of Waterford is reflected across the whole south east region not just in that city.

Waterford people have to be obsessive about these things. We need to get a university for the south east, for the good of all of us. We need to get radiotherapy for the good of all of us. It is important to continuously remind the government that Waterford is a city, as in it's in the same category as Galway and Limerick, and not far off their populations. The only problem is that with Kilkenny being able to use the title, and with Sligo and Dundalk adopting it, Waterford's argument for things like the university and radiotherapy, on the basis that it is a city, takes a real hit because the government can turn around and say, "sure everywhere's a city, we can't build a university in every town." So you might ask what's in a name... but maybe quite a lot. (But this is maybe an insoluble problem.)

In the south east we have big problems. Every other large region has a university and the jobs that go with it. The counties with the capitals of those regions have income at 110%+ the national average, with other counties having incomes between 90% and 100%.

In the south east, which used to be one of the wealthiest regions in the country, the county with the regional capital, Waterford, only breaks even at around 100%, while Wexford, Kilkenny, South Tipp. and Carlow have incomes between 80% and 90% -- in line with the poorest counties in the country, Roscommon & Leitrim. What a fall from grace!

So what do we do to rectify this? We fight like cats and dogs. Waterford tries to compete with Limerick and Galway, but it is continually undermined by Kilkenny, Wexford and Carlow. The tag line "everything goes to Waterford" is rolled out every week in the local papers. But everything doesn't go to Waterford, everything goes to other regions. Attacking Waterford is like attacking the foundations of the future wealth of the entire region. Wealth flows from the regional capital, if there is any wealth there to begin with; the very same as Dublin is the main engine of the irish economy. If Waterford is doing poorly then Kilkenny, Wexford, Carlow and South Tipp. will never do well. That's a fact.

We need to all come together to get a university for the south east, either in Waterford, or headquartered in Waterford and with campuses elsewhere. Either way, we need to do this, to get money flowing back into the south east. Waterford, for its part, needs to ensure that the other counties get support for the things they need too. We need co-operation.

In the last few years, Kilkenny politicians have sought the WRH to be moved to Kilkenny. Carlow is arguing that the university should be in Carlow. This is SHEER madness. We need to work together. Waterford is by far the largest centre, and the one that the size to get infrastructure like a university or a radiotherapy unit. We need to pull together on this. The infighting in killing us.

Sorry for the rant, and I don't mean to annoy anyone, it's just that this is a time when people have to be a little bit obsessive about things.

road_high

merlante wrote:

Waterford people have to be obsessive about these things. We need to get a university for the south east, for the good of all of us. We need to get radiotherapy for the good of all of us. It is important to continuously remind the government that Waterford is a city, as in it's in the same category as Galway and Limerick, and not far off their populations. The only problem is that with Kilkenny being able to use the title, and with Sligo and Dundalk adopting it, Waterford's argument for things like the university and radiotherapy, on the basis that it is a city, takes a real hit because the government can turn around and say, "sure everywhere's a city, we can't build a university in every town." So you might ask what's in a name... but maybe quite a lot. (But this is maybe an insoluble problem.)

In the south east we have big problems. Every other large region has a university and the jobs that go with it. The counties with the capitals of those regions have income at 110%+ the national average, with other counties having incomes between 90% and 100%.

In the south east, which used to be one of the wealthiest regions in the country, the county with the regional capital, Waterford, only breaks even at around 100%, while Wexford, Kilkenny, South Tipp. and Carlow have incomes between 80% and 90% -- in line with the poorest counties in the country, Roscommon & Leitrim. What a fall from grace!

So what do we do to rectify this? We fight like cats and dogs. Waterford tries to compete with Limerick and Galway, but it is continually undermined by Kilkenny, Wexford and Carlow. The tag line "everything goes to Waterford" is rolled out every week in the local papers. But everything doesn't go to Waterford, everything goes to other regions. Attacking Waterford is like attacking the foundations of the future wealth of the entire region. Wealth flows from the regional capital, if there is any wealth there to begin with; the very same as Dublin is the main engine of the irish economy. If Waterford is doing poorly then Kilkenny, Wexford, Carlow and South Tipp. will never do well. That's a fact.

We need to all come together to get a university for the south east, either in Waterford, or headquartered in Waterford and with campuses elsewhere. Either way, we need to do this, to get money flowing back into the south east. Waterford, for its part, needs to ensure that the other counties get support for the things they need too. We need co-operation.

In the last few years, Kilkenny politicians have sought the WRH to be moved to Kilkenny. Carlow is arguing that the university should be in Carlow. This is SHEER madness. We need to work together. Waterford is by far the largest centre, and the one that the size to get infrastructure like a university or a radiotherapy unit. We need to pull together on this. The infighting in killing us.

Sorry for the rant, and I don't mean to annoy anyone, it's just that this is a time when people have to be a little bit obsessive about things.

I agree totally with what you're sayin.It really pisses me off the way the west is handed things on a plate while we get the scraps in the south east.
And the even more infuriarating thing is that most people here in KK (I'm sure the rest of the region is similar) don't even seem to care or notice that this is happening!!
We should be lambasting the govt for not delivering on things like the N9 dual carriageway quick enough, their back-tracking on Radiotherapy, and near refusal to give us a university.No way should KK be attacking Waterford 'for what they got', as afterall it's diversion of funds to OTHER regions that is the real problem.

The income figures you outlined are another worrying trend.Co Wexford has the lowest per capita income- imagine it, one of the wealthiest counties in the past is now the poorest!Its a clear indication that something is wrong..
The lack of university is certainly a root cause of this, as is the desperate road infrastructure particularly the N9 as outlined. I'm glad the s east had M Cullen to accelerate building of this essential road for the betterment of the whole region. Then we have the poor mouths like Marian Harkin (MEP West) knocking the N9 and saying the Sligo N4 road should get upgraded instead- this despite the fact that that particualr road has seen millions spent on it throughout the last decade.What a nerve really..

road_high

mfitzy wrote:

And the even more infuriarating thing is that most people here in KK (I'm sure the rest of the region is similar) don't even seem to care or notice that this is happening!!

I think my point has been proven going by the dismal contribution of KK people to this topic (see previous posts).Does nobody in KK give a toss about the future development of their city/town, county or region?Does nobody care that the west and the other regions are passing us out in terms of commercial development, educational attainment, infrastructure and services??

No wonder we keep sending such muppets to the Dail if that's the case!

MontgomeryClift

I don't think Kilkenny people have an envy of any of their neighbours, but Kilkenny's neighbours envy Kilkenny. People from Laois, Carlow, Waterford and Tipperary envy and dislike Kilkenny for some reason.

I've only known Kilkenny people to wish Laois well in the football championship, yet most Laois people have an envy of Kilkenny that includes and goes beyond the GAA.

Edit: And on the subject of Kilkenny's 'development,' you won't have long to wait for Kilkenny to become a shopping and traffic chaos town like Carlow has become. Two separate plans are afoot (one is proceeding) for two shopping malls near one another and away from the existing shopping area. It will be a mess and all of those new chain stores will stock nothing but junk.

Mossy Monk

MontgomeryClift wrote:

I don't think Kilkenny people have an envy of any of their neighbours, but Kilkenny's neighbours envy Kilkenny. People from Laois, Carlow, Waterford and Tipperary envy and dislike Kilkenny for some reason.

please tell me you can back this up apart from GAA

Bards

MontgomeryClift wrote:

I don't think Kilkenny people have an envy of any of their neighbours, but Kilkenny's neighbours envy Kilkenny. People from Laois, Carlow, Waterford and Tipperary envy and dislike Kilkenny for some reason.

I've only known Kilkenny people to wish Laois well in the football championship, yet most Laois people have an envy of Kilkenny that includes and goes beyond the GAA.

Edit: And on the subject of Kilkenny's 'development,' you won't have long to wait for Kilkenny to become a shopping and traffic chaos town like Carlow has become. Two separate plans are afoot (one is proceeding) for two shopping malls near one another and away from the existing shopping area. It will be a mess and all of those new chain stores will stock nothing but junk.

Then why pray tell will Kilkenny not allow Waterford Expand their City in a most logical way... is it because of Envy!!!

MontgomeryClift

Mossy Monk wrote:

please tell me you can back this up apart from GAA

You know, I only see this repeated on boards.ie. I think Irish people must be obsessed with proving things to an impossible degree, as a way of stifling discussion. Or maybe they just don't 'get' the Internet.

road_high

MontgomeryClift wrote:

I don't think Kilkenny people have an envy of any of their neighbours, but Kilkenny's neighbours envy Kilkenny. People from Laois, Carlow, Waterford and Tipperary envy and dislike Kilkenny for some reason.

I've only known Kilkenny people to wish Laois well in the football championship, yet most Laois people have an envy of Kilkenny that includes and goes beyond the GAA.

Edit: And on the subject of Kilkenny's 'development,' you won't have long to wait for Kilkenny to become a shopping and traffic chaos town like Carlow has become. Two separate plans are afoot (one is proceeding) for two shopping malls near one another and away from the existing shopping area. It will be a mess and all of those new chain stores will stock nothing but junk.

Yes there is a lot of stupid rivalry between KK and it's neighbours for sure but this is the case everywhere in Ireland.

But if I were from the other counties I would not be jealous of KK, I would pity us. As I have wrote in another thread we have the lowest per capita income in Leinster, coupled with the worst infrastructure and roads you can possibly imagine.
KK people seem to have this false (and deluded) notion of superiority over many other counties.This results in complacency with the net result we sent completely imcompetent reps to the Dail for the last 25 years and as such have gained little or nothing in terms of governement investment.

MontgomeryClift

What gets me is the lack of a college and a preponderance of shopping centres. And it's meant to be a 'city'!

BadCharlie

MontgomeryClift wrote:

I don't think Kilkenny people have an envy of any of their neighbours, but Kilkenny's neighbours envy Kilkenny. People from Laois, Carlow, Waterford and Tipperary envy and dislike Kilkenny for some reason.

I do think that some KK people think this as i have read this lost of times. Im from waterford and i dont feel any Envy towards KK or do my friends. The only thing that people would envy is your hurlers and that would be said in most counties in ireland and not just waterford.

If you think about it, what is there to Envy in any county. There has been lots of things pointed out in this thread that the south east have not been getting what they need.

Ireland is one of the richest countries in the world. And yet we cant get the medical, education and crime sorted here. The Government is a shame I just hope they get voted out next time round.