Should Tramore be considered a suburb of Waterford?

fricatus

With the recent Census, all sorts of arguments abound about the populations of our cities. Dublin likes to include Gorey, Mullingar and Dundalk in its population, Galway stretches all the way out to Barna, getting the most out of its urban area. Limerick gets the short straw, not being allowed to consider Castletroy or Dooradoyle part of the city population. Kilkenny (rightly) gets hot under the collar about being compared to Tramore in the Munster Express. Meanwhile, the cute hoors of Cork stay quiet and get on with being the "real capital".

Surely though, the population of Tramore should be considered part of Waterford city. It is full of people who would be living in Ballygunner, Ferrybank or Gracedieu, if it wasn't for the price of houses and the chance to live by the sea. Its employment base is almost exclusively in Waterford. Including it (along with "North Waterford") would push the city's population over the 60,000 mark, allowing us to stand out from the likes of Bray and Drogheda.

So what do you think? Is Tramore just a dormitory suburb, or is it a place apart, with its own identity?

Minto

I think that Tramore is just begining to lose the tag of being a dormatory town and now people want to call it a suburb of Waterford City? Pure madness!

Tramore is scheduled for a huge development in the coming months and has a population nearing if not surpassing that of Dungarvan. We are starting to assert ourselves as something more than a tourist spot (or "Ballymun in da sun", as a public rep of Tramore called it recently).

Mossy Monk

Minto wrote:

has a population nearing if not surpassing that of Dungarvan

8,799 for Tramore
9,254 for Dungarvan (including 1,423 for Dungarvan rural)

so yeah pretty close indeed

merlante

This is a very interesting topic.

First off, we have not yet seen what I consider the real city populations yet: that is the city + suburbs. As we all know, figures that go by boundaries are a bit arbitrary, as places like Limerick really get a raw deal. Only about 55% of Limerick city now fits within its city boundary, whereas about 99% of Galway city fits within its boundary. (In Waterford's case the percentage is about 93% but dropping fast as more Waterford people like in south Kilkenny -- 6% of city people are now exiled. )

The CSO will release the city + suburb figures, or the conurbation figures, after some analysis. They will judge what parts of cities outside city boundaries make up the city itself.

Tramore is a town that has exploded in population in recent years, basically as an attractive outpost of Waterford. Fair enough, it may have it's own identity, but how dare Tramore people try to keep Tramore for themselves. The fact is that if it didn't exist, Waterford city would probably be at least 5,000 bigger than it is, but sure there you go, you can't argue with people wanting to live in a nice place like Tramore. The thing is though that Tramore is 8 miles away -- that's too far for it to be considered a suburb. It is true that Galway pulled off this trick by subsuming Barna, or much of it, but Barna is only about 2/3 miles outside the city.

Now if we look at Limerick, we are always hearing about the Limerick/Shannon area/zone, which basicaly comprises a city, a town and an airport. Now we could define a Waterford/Tramore area/zone or an East Waterford area/zone or some such, because we also have a city, a town and an airport. And the interesting thing is that Tramore looks like it will overtake Shannon soon, and in fact probably already has. Although, our airport will never quite match up.

It is true that we need some way of conveying to the outside world the true state of our population in Waterford/Tramore. Tramore is now 20% of the size of Waterford city -- that's scary! I doubt it could be considered a suburb, but it should be taken into account when it comes to squaring us off against other places in terms of population.

As for things like the 'greater dublin region', etc., these figures are nearly meaningless to me, and they just exist to try to trick foreign investors into thinking that Ireland is a bigger place than it is, and to make the dubs feel good, and give them a better case for further investment, etc.

Finally, regarding the sizes of Dungarvan and Tramore. As with the cities, we have yet to see the CSO release proper town figures (disregarding political boundaries), and so it is difficult to tell. However, Tramore had passed Dungarvan in population in 2002 with Tramore having 8,305 people and Dungarvan having 7,452, and Tramore seems to be growing a lot quicker. I would estimate Tramore's total population now to be something in the region of 9,500 and Dungarvan maybe 8,000. (I got this by getting the percentage increase of the pop. within the boundary 2002 - 2006 and scaling up the whole town population by the same amount.) (You can't add on the Dungarvan rural population though, because it ain't the town. )

Full town figures for 2002 are on the CSO site, but more easily found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland/Largest_100

However, it should be noted that Dungarvan caters for the whole of west Waterford, whereas Tramore just caters for itself.

mike65

In a word NO! Tramore is distinctly Tramore and can no more be considered a suburb of Waterford than New Ross.

Mike.

merlante

mike65 wrote:

In a word NO! Tramore is distinctly Tramore and can no more be considered a suburb of Waterford than New Ross.

Mike.

I'm not trying to annoy anyone or anything, but there were hardly anyone living in Tramore prior to the Tramore railway. The place has grown from a big village, like Dunmore, to the size of a biggish county town in my lifetime. Nearly everyone is a 'blow in' by any definition.

Do we really need to start claiming some sort of historic identity for Tramore that proves that Tramore bloodlines go back to an entirely different celtic tribe, etc., than Waterford city people? I hate that guff.

I never really considered going to Tramore from the city as going to a different place; there were people from Tramore in my class at school. Do we really need to make Waterford/Tramore like Waterford/south Kilkenny? Lets face it, we're all the same, we have more or less the same accent and shop in more or less the same shops, etc.

Now yes, I KNOW TRAMORE NEEDS MORE SHOPPING. No arguments from me on that. But I do see Waterford city centre as equally belonging to Tramore people and Dunmore people and Faithlegg people and south Kilkenny people and so on. West Waterford like to look after themselves by all accounts.

Bards

I would have to side with Merlante on this one too. Without Waterford City the population of tramore would be far far lower. I have family & friends who moved there from the City as housing was cheaper and they still work, shop & socialise in the City.

mike65

Maybe I'm just nostalgic for when I lived there (mid 70s-81) and Waterford was over there, sure peeps worked in Waterford and shopped there too but I don't recall anyone thinking of themselves as being City people.

Mike.

Roen

Totally separate entities as far as I'm concerned. Far too much homogenisation going on as it is with all this Europe nonsense.
Besides who'd want the TBV on their case? :eek:

merlante

mike65 wrote:

Maybe I'm just nostalgic for when I lived there (mid 70s-81) and Waterford was over there, sure peeps worked in Waterford and shopped there too but I don't recall anyone thinking of themselves as being City people.

Mike.

Fair enough. Still, that's the way things are going. I still think it is scary how big Tramore has gotten: 20% of the size of the city!

Anyway, I've attached a cut and paste from a recent NASA satellite picture of the city and Tramore. Just for the heck of it. (See the outer ring road?)

Minto

I still think that 13km is too much of a distance between Tramore and Waterford to call it a suburb!

However, I do agree that Tramore wouldn't have half the population it currently has if not for Waterford City, but that has very little relevance, IMHO! Because without Waterford City, this thread would not be here, lol!

But seriously, Tramore is too independent to be a suburb! It was mentioned that some kids go to school in town. But thats only a very small percentage who do. Infact, a lot of people come from the likes of Dunhill and Fenor to school (infact, we had some kids from out by the airport in prmary school).

Saruman

While im not too familiar with tramore.. as last poster said... 13km is too far. If it was all urban in between then yes you could but i imagine its mostly country.. farms etc. 13 km is too far unless you are in Dublin where 13 km is still within greater urban area easily. Its the only place big enough on the island for that.

I do not think Mullingar would be considered a suburb of Dublin.. its part of the commuter belt sure... because of house prices in Dublin.. but its too far away to be a suburb... Maybooth would be as far west that you could consider a suburb and its technically not.

Bards

Saruman wrote:

While im not too familiar with tramore.. as last poster said... 13km is too far. If it was all urban in between then yes you could but i imagine its mostly country.. farms etc. 13 km is too far unless you are in Dublin where 13 km is still within greater urban area easily. Its the only place big enough on the island for that.

I do not think Mullingar would be considered a suburb of Dublin.. its part of the commuter belt sure... because of house prices in Dublin.. but its too far away to be a suburb... Maybooth would be as far west that you could consider a suburb and its technically not.

I would imagine that from the junction of the tramore road & the Outer ring Road the distance to Tramore (Summerville Roundabout) would be less than 8Km. in time you will find that there will be houses built along this strectch of road

jd

I think the CSO has a 200 metre rule for defining urban areas. ie A house has to be within 200 meters of a house that is within an urban area, to be in an urban area...

Suburbs/environs are defined, in conformity with United Nations recommendations, as the continuation
of a distinct population cluster outside its legally defined boundary in which no occupied dwelling is more
than 200 metres distant from the nearest occupied dwelling. New suburbs or environs are defined only
where there are at least twenty occupied dwellings outside the legal boundary within the new limit. In
applying the 200-metre criterion, industrial, commercial and recreational buildings and facilities are not
regarded as breaking the continuity of a built-up area.

Hope that makes sense

mike65

in time you will find that there will be houses built along this strectch of road

It would be a bloody scandal if that became the case, ribbon development is a disgrace as its destuctive of the environment and wasteful of resources.

Mike.

Minto

Bards wrote:

I would imagine that from the junction of the tramore road & the Outer ring Road the distance to Tramore (Summerville Roundabout) would be less than 8Km. in time you will find that there will be houses built along this strectch of road

I got the info about the distance from Waterford to Tramore from wikipedia, so i'd say it's pretty accurate tbh!

merlante

Minto wrote:

I got the info about the distance from Waterford to Tramore from wikipedia, so i'd say it's pretty accurate tbh!

Yeah, that's the centre of Waterford to the centre of Tramore. The outskirts of Waterford is another thing. The outer ring road is probably 2 miles closer to Tramore anyway...

And just because some is on wikipedia does not mean it's correct. Some people feel free to put up any crap they like.

Roen

mike65 wrote:

It would be a bloody scandal if that became the case, ribbon development is a disgrace as its destuctive of the environment and wasteful of resources.

Mike.

Well there's already signs up for a large retail park that will be developed at the airport roundabout, and as far as I know there is also plans for housing along that road too.
Think of it as the rail road opening up the wild west, wherever it went towns were sure to follow.........

merlante

Roen wrote:

Well there's already signs up for a large retail park that will be developed at the airport roundabout, and as far as I know there is also plans for housing along that road too.
Think of it as the rail road opening up the wild west, wherever it went towns were sure to follow.........

I think maybe a park near the airport wouldn't be too bad, since enough though it would draw people out of Waterford, it might allow Tramore people to shop more locally, hence easing traffic in the other direction. Particularly since Tramore people currently have more of a need to travel to Waterford that Waterford people would have to travel to a retail park near the airport.

Anyway, ribbon development could **** up Waterford again in no time. Right now we have a fully functional outer ring road and we'll soon have a really good road in the bypass. These roads are designed to ferry people to different parts of Waterford quickly. This is a great infrastructure break for Waterford; for once we'll have everything we need. We'll be able to offer a level of access and quality of movement through the city, the like of which won't be known in Dublin for another 50 years, if ever.

Now, if we go and build sparsely populated estates all around these lovely new roads, then they will turn into a car park, like the M50 in Dublin! And god knows how long we'd have to wait for an outer-outer ring road! Particularly with a sub-100,000 population!

The only way to keep these roads useful -- for the purpose they were designed for -- is to get people back living in the city proper, in higher density accommodation. Endless estate sprawl will kill Waterford like it has already killed Dublin and Galway...

mike65

Thats what I fear and predict, I spotted a site which is home to some playing fields is up for sale (for business and housing of course!) on the inside of the ring road at the Airport road roundabout. In 15 years we'll be agitiating for the Outer-Outer Ring road.

Mike.

Roen

I think that's the site I was referring to Mike65. I was under the impression that it was already sold and the development cycle was under way.
Someone wake McCann from his sarcophagus quick!

mike65

Ooops! Yep my bad. Its hard to see why a retail park would be required in that spot. All of 1.5 km from Ardkeen/Tesco!

Mike.

Bards

The Outer-Ring Road was part funded by the Dept. of Environment to the tune of 50%. It is to cater for some 5,000 houses, hence the speed limit of a ridiculous 60Km/h

ToxicPaddy

I think at the moment Tramore is a bit too far from Waterford to be considered a suburb yet, but that probably will change in the next few years.

As already said, the new ring road has something like 5000 houses planned for it, so when that happens you will see Tramore being swallowed up within the next 20-30 years..

The city boundries for Waterford end on the main Tramore rd half way between the new ring road roundabout and that missionary retreat house, so thats another reason it may not happen anytime soon, but all the land past that on the left hand side opposite Katie Reillys (Halfway House) has been purchased by Kents, the builders, so expect to see major development out that way on the old Tramore/Waterford rd soon opposite Ballinamona..

Tramore may not be half the size it is now only for Waterford people moving there, but I think a lot of people are moving out to Tramore by choice more than as a necessity, house price differences in some areas of Tramore dont differ greatly than those in Waterford.. I know in some estates in Tramore you'd pay €250k+ for an average 3 bed semi and these are no where near the Cove rd/Newtown hill area which is by far the most expensive area.

As for kids from Tramore who go to school in Waterford, most of that is the choice of the parents. I know a few guys who went to De La Salle simply because their father went there and the same with the girls, their mothers went to the Ursline/Mercy and so they wanted them to go there.

Waterford County Council have setup a branch office in Tramore which in itself says a hell of a lot, the NRA have an office there and I'm sure you will see some more small offices like those popping up.

I'm very surprised that Tramore doesnt have some sort of small office park on the outskirts of the town by now. With Tesco/Lidl/Aldi moving in, a retail park planned, a major population growth and a lot more houses to come, its about time their setup something in the way of employment there rather than people having to work in Waterford. Most smaller regional towns have office parks, nothing fancy, 2 or 3 storey buildings grouped together that would make a nice alternative to some offices having to be based in the middle of the city and struggling for car parking spaces etc.

Tox

looksee

mike65 wrote:

It would be a bloody scandal if that became the case, ribbon development is a disgrace as its destuctive of the environment and wasteful of resources.

Mike.

I have no problems about development generally, but I agree about ribbon development. For other reasons though I would not like to see development along sections of the Tramore road. The sight of the reedbeds was the "we're nearly at the seaside" moment for my kids when they were younger. Now I live in Tramore I love the scenery of the Tramore road - the reedbeds, the colours of the willows - red and yellow and green bare branches in the winter, the various stretches of woodland, the way mist sits in hollows in the fields on winter mornings. There are plenty of places where development can go ahead - has anyone taken that route from the Old Tramore road to the Dunmore road recently - its a ghost town of new housing developments but almost no one living there yet - and in Tramore, we have been surrounded by hundred of houses, but that's ok, people have to live somewhere (provided the services are put in). But don't build on the marsh land, it will mess up the drainage of the surrounding land (and it really can't be a healthy place to live), and its attractive, a bit mysterious, and an interesting gateway to Tramore. Relax, stick to the speed limit (well yes, the 60 kph is a bit tedious) and enjoy the visual breathing space between the commercial facilities of Waterford and the housing of Tramore. And to get back to the thread, I dont really mind whether we are county or city - Dungarvan doesn't seem to love us much, but if we were city would the dreaded 60 limit go all the way to Tramore?

merlante

Well the fact is that the city boundary will not moved out as far as Tramore, it's just too far away.

I just hope that the powers that be remember that Waterford's urban population is spread between the city and Tramore. Tramore is now 20% of the size of Waterford and is absorbing a sizeable portion of the city's growth. It this is ignored, then Waterford looks like it's growing more slowly than other cities, which is undesirable for us all.

DéiseGirl

looksee wrote:

I have no problems about development generally, but I agree about ribbon development. For other reasons though I would not like to see development along sections of the Tramore road. The sight of the reedbeds was the "we're nearly at the seaside" moment for my kids when they were younger. Now I live in Tramore I love the scenery of the Tramore road - the reedbeds, the colours of the willows - red and yellow and green bare branches in the winter, the various stretches of woodland, the way mist sits in hollows in the fields on winter mornings. There are plenty of places where development can go ahead - has anyone taken that route from the Old Tramore road to the Dunmore road recently - its a ghost town of new housing developments but almost no one living there yet - and in Tramore, we have been surrounded by hundred of houses, but that's ok, people have to live somewhere (provided the services are put in). But don't build on the marsh land, it will mess up the drainage of the surrounding land (and it really can't be a healthy place to live), and its attractive, a bit mysterious, and an interesting gateway to Tramore. Relax, stick to the speed limit (well yes, the 60 kph is a bit tedious) and enjoy the visual breathing space between the commercial facilities of Waterford and the housing of Tramore. And to get back to the thread, I dont really mind whether we are county or city - Dungarvan doesn't seem to love us much, but if we were city would the dreaded 60 limit go all the way to Tramore?

Aren't that area with the reedbeds, trees etc an area of conservation?

DéiseGirl

ToxicPaddy wrote:

As for kids from Tramore who go to school in Waterford, most of that is the choice of the parents. I know a few guys who went to De La Salle simply because their father went there and the same with the girls, their mothers went to the Ursline/Mercy and so they wanted them to go there.

I could never understand that sh1te myself, the school day was long enough without trekking to and from Waterford everyday

mad man

I remeber talking to this guy from the corpo about 10 years ago and he said the expectation was that the city would expand towards Tramore back in the 80's.That it is the way it initially looked when avondale and kilcohan and cherrymount were built.However then development went hell for leather out the Dunmore road direction.

I think the answer depends on how you define a suburb.If it is the outer part of a continuous urban area then it obviously isn't.However I think the point is in reality it effectively is a suburb.The population of Tramore is dependent on Waterford as is New Ross and Carrick to some degree..The new retail evelopments will not change this much as they are largely supermarkets.Tramore is short on Industrial activity which IMO is better for Tramore.

I think in eventually you will see the Waterford and Tramore merge into some sort of conurbation.When I am down in Waterford I go to Tramore sometimes by driving along Ballybeg drive and through Butlerstown and eventually turn left along a road that runs up to the New Tramore Ring road. The first time I did this I was surprised at how much the Green Belt had reduced.Also if you go via Ballygunner/Knockboy along the road by the National School you will see a sort of Millionares row emerging that is forming between Ballygunner and the Tramore road.

I remember an article in the paper before quoting some economics professor who stated that a rectangle foming between New Ross,Carrick,Tramore and Waterford was the most imprtant economic area outside Dublin and Cork and was under utilised.We all know this.

The main thing for Tramore is to maintain there identity for Waterfod and Tramore sufficient Green Belt.

meldrew

What identity does Tramore actually have , a tacky seaside town that attracts inner city dubs in their droves in the summer months ?

Minto

Just out of intrest, meldrew, when where you last in Tramore?

mad man

meldrew wrote:

What identity does Tramore actually have , a tacky seaside town that attracts inner city dubs in their droves in the summer months ?

I think there is probably a bit more to the place than that,although I have to admit I am ignorant of what it might be.I think that is the problem with resort towns its sometimes hard to find the indigenous population.Its like where I live in Kildare.When you actually find someone who isn't a dub,foreign or from down the country its like finding the last of the mohicans.The same goes in the midlands.I work with a guy from Tullamore and he claims there is hardly anyone around with a Tullamore accent these days.However as I explained that might ACTUALLY BE A GOOD THING:D

merlante

The real Tramore for me is walking along the peer and the Doneraile or out the sand hills around Christmas, when it is gusty and cold. Half of Waterford can be found walking out there at that time of year when families are re-united for the few days around Christmas. Great place for a bit of air and a good walk after a big dinner.

Then refuge for a drink in the majestic or somewhere, although the majestic hasn't got a lick of paint since I was about 12 so maybe not there... (Was there not so long ago and I was disgusted by the place.) I'm not fussed about Tramore during the summer. Too breezy to lie on the beach, too many people. Woodstown is that place to go then for shelter and peace and quiet.

Tramore is a cracking place though. Cunningham's chipper is an institution and there are so many great walks.

meldrew

I'm not knocking Tramore , I know plenty of Tramore people and they're all decent skins , its the image of tramore I dont like and the type of visitor it attracts in the summer months , theres no nicer place outside of the summer season especially over Christmas and the Baldy Man Run which is great craic !

DéiseGirl

meldrew wrote:

I'm not knocking Tramore , I know plenty of Tramore people and they're all decent skins , its the image of tramore I dont like and the type of visitor it attracts in the summer months , theres no nicer place outside of the summer season especially over Christmas and the Baldy Man Run which is great craic !

I hate Tramore in summer too, but it's only 3 months out of the year