Joining a foreign military

Wolfe Tone

I honestly do not understand why an Irish person would join a foreign army of any description especially the BA.

Personally I would only join an Irish army, in an instance where I was needed,I would be motivated by nationalist sentiment, as I am sure many are who want to "serve their country etc" In a foreign army is such reasoning not absent? I mean the guy I know who was in the BA didn't join to "serve Queen and country" despite making an oath to do so, his word is obviously worth nothing, but that is another can of worms. However, the lads I know in the Irish army, the reserves, or the few I know who didnt get in all had "I want to serve my country" very high on their list.

So why join a foreign army? An insane desire to go kill people in some war which has nothing to do with you, your country and is of no benefit? A desire to see conflict and kill simply for the sake of it?

It wasn't me!

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I honestly do not understand why an Irish person would join a foreign army of any description especially the BA.

Personally I would only join an Irish army, in an instance where I was needed,I would be motivated by nationalist sentiment, as I am sure many are who want to "serve their country etc" In a foreign army is such reasoning not absent? I mean the guy I know who was in the BA didn't join to "serve Queen and country" despite making an oath to do so, his word is obviously worth nothing, but that is another can of worms. However, the lads I know in the Irish army, the reserves, or the few I know who didnt get in all had "I want to serve my country" very high on their list.

So why join a foreign army? An insane desire to go kill people in some war which has nothing to do with you, your country and is of no benefit? A desire to see conflict and kill simply for the sake of it?

This is not the first time you've asked such questions. Do you think you're going to like the answers any better this time?

Local-womanizer

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So why join a foreign army? An insane desire to go kill people in some war which has nothing to do with you, your country and is of no benefit? A desire to see conflict and kill simply for the sake of it?

I know 2 lads who joined the BA this year.

Their reasons,funnily enough it was not to serve the Queen or the British Empire. It was as simple as it is a job for them,and they wanted to be a solider. Something at the time they joined the PDF could not provide.

And I wold value their words as highly as any other person,they took a decision to do something extremely brave not just for their own benefit but that also of their families,because in todays world "Nationalist Sentiment" gets you fcuk all.

And the people I know in the PDF or RDF are their because they are motivated young people who wanted a challenge and want to lead a varied lifestyle involving shooting big guns and blowing things up. Never have I heard any of them saying they wanted to serve their country as their main reason

discus

Don't reply to encourage him, I'm sure he'd have no problem if it were the FFL or US forces we were talking about.

daithi09

Hey, I always wanted to join the army, always wanted to be a soldier but there was always something else to do and my mammy always frowned upon it. How and ever I've run out of things to do and i'm back at college, i saw people mention about getting a third level education and becoming an officer. I was just wondering what sort of degrees they would be looking for, like I'm doing biosciences at the moment, surely that couldn't help?!

Wolfe Tone

Local-womanizer wrote: »

I know 2 lads who joined the BA this year.

Their reasons,funnily enough it was not to serve the Queen or the British Empire. It was as simple as it is a job for them,and they wanted to be a solider. Something at the time they joined the PDF could not provide.

Simply a job, which at its core requires them to kill people, and for what reason? As you said its not patriotism.

And I wold value their words as highly as any other person,they took a decision to do something extremely brave not just for their own benefit but that also of their families,because in todays world "Nationalist Sentiment" gets you fcuk all.

Benefit of their families? The queens shilling I assume? Cmon, its not as if they are paid really really well. The guys in the Irish army I know are all honored to serve their country, its more than a job to them. They joined last year you say, so presumably they want to go to the middle east and take part in ops over there, which will result in people being killed, either the enemy or god forbid your friends. So, they are essentially joining to go off to a war and risk their lives and kill, simply for the sake of it? If thats the case how does that help their families? Surely it would be of greater benefit to their family to get a job at home in order to be with them, and be safe? I would have thought joining the army would be detrimental to family life, one of the downsides. So they sacrifice time with their family, cause them endless worry simply to take part in some war and kill for the sake of it?

Don't reply to encourage him, I'm sure he'd have no problem if it were the FFL or US forces we were talking about.

Come again? The points I make are equally applicable to those armies, you will note I have left out the whole history of the BA as reasons not to join the BA, as that is another debate.

Manic Moran

I was just wondering what sort of degrees they would be looking for, like I'm doing biosciences at the moment, surely that couldn't help?!

Can't hurt.

Maybe you can get a position in Chemical Corps R&D or something.

The US just requires a 4-year-degree, doesn't matter what in, as long as you're not going to a specialty branch like JAG or Chaplain, in which case it needs to be applicable. The university degree is really more a proof of dedication, ability to learn and communicate, and a general rounding-out than being a tool to be used in itself.

NTM

daithi09

Thanks MM, I find the course i'm doing is fine, i'm just doing it because there is nothing else to do at the moment. I was always wanted to be a soldier, being in peak physical condition is something i'd like to do full time, I reckon I could use my brains also so I don't want to just be really low down and not be able to work my way up into a good position. Having a job at a desk isn't something I'd be into either.. Sorry I could probably find a few other threads on my best route, ignore if i'm just being lazy by asking all this here.. Don't want to hijack this thread.

Back to this thread, I wouldn't mind joining any army, a job is a job, and from what i can see the army is a job that will always challenge you and that is something worth looking for.

mgmt

Silent Runner wrote: »

The US military would be pretty much out of the question, a green card is hard to get, its a lottery system.

This might be a possibility
https://my.goarmy.com/info/form/GetBrcFormRedirectByUrl.do?url=/info/mavni

Poccington

Lads can we refrain from the "Don't answer him, it's only cause it's the Brits" kind of thing?

Muss is a level headed poster and capable of taking part in intelligent debate, he's not here to troll.

Local-womanizer

To answer you Mussolini. To the 2 I know,it is a combination of factors as I said.

One being it is as simple as a job,if they stayed in Ireland they had little to none opportunities for work,no work no wage,no wage then you cannot provide for you family. They chose the lesser of 2 evils I suppose,be away for 6 months at a time in a dangerous place but at least have a cash flow into the house. Needs must after all.

The second was they wanted to solider,Ireland and the PDF could not provide that opportunity at the time,if it could they would have jumped at the chance to join the PDF.

Every man who joins the BA knows at some course in their career they may have to serve overseas and take a life or indeed sacrifice their own,the 2 I know were told they would more than likely be posted overseas not long after recruit training. But at the end of the day if you join a military force and you would have issues in taking a life in certain circumstances ie a war zone, then you shouldnt sign on that line. You join the PDF you may have to take a life,thats why they carry weapons after all!

Its not all about Patriotism,its never that clear. You would be hard pushed to find people to protect our current Government if it hit the fan through a sense of patriotism,they would simply do so out of professionalism.

And about issues of taking the Queens shilling,sure arent the British Government aiding us in the Bailout? People dont seem to mind taking their money in this case....

discus

So why join a foreign army? An insane desire to go kill people in some war which has nothing to do with you, your country and is of no benefit? A desire to see conflict and kill simply for the sake of it?

Simply a job, which at its core requires them to kill people, and for what reason?

Poccington wrote: »

Lads can we refrain from the "Don't answer him, it's only cause it's the Brits" kind of thing?

Muss is a level headed poster and capable of taking part in intelligent debate, he's not here to troll.

Yeah, suggesting that Irish lads join the BA because they have a desire to murder is only reasonable.

Personally, I'd rather go and witness history in the making - even small portions of what happens in the world - for a few years, rather than sit at home and watch a tiny round-up of the worlds events on the 6.01 news.

pablomakaveli

I applied twice for the PDF this year (Cadets and General enlistment) and didn't get it. I'm now applying to the BA because i want to be a soldier and i might have to wait a long time to do that here (and even then i may not get in).

The BA is a good career path for someone who wants to be a soldier and ill still be near enough to home to visit. I imagine the reasons for joining the BA are the same for other lads and given the large numbers of people unemployed in this country with the large number of unsuccesful PDF applicants in the recent cadet and general enlistment competitions, there will be a lot of people from the Republic applying to the BA in the next year or two.

Even my uncle who was an officer in the PDF said i'd have more oppurtunities in the BA.

mgmt

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I applied twice for the PDF this year (Cadets and General enlistment) and didn't get it. I'm now applying to the BA because i want to be a soldier and i might have to wait a long time to do that here (and even then i may not get in).

Would you like to serve in Northern Ireland if the **** kicks off again?

pablomakaveli

mgmt wrote: »

Would you like to serve in Northern Ireland if the **** kicks off again?

I don't think it's going to kick off again. But if it does and im sent there ,then i go.

A Dub in Glasgo

discus wrote: »

Personally, I'd rather go and witness history in the making - even small portions of what happens in the world - for a few years, rather than sit at home and watch a tiny round-up of the worlds events on the 6.01 news.

Surely a journalist is better at witnessing history in the making than some grunt who will kill if ordered to?

Wolfe Tone

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I don't think it's going to kick off again. But if it does and im sent there ,then i go.

lol, you know what the BA has done up there?


They wouldnt send you there anyway, you could be a plant.

Wolfe Tone

discus wrote: »

Yeah, suggesting that Irish lads join the BA because they have a desire to murder is only reasonable.

A desire to be a soldier, which at its core involves killing people.

Pyr0

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

A desire to be a soldier, which at its core involves killing people.

Some people join the army simply for a job as other posters have said. Not many people join up mainly to kill people. Others join foreign armies to experience the world in a way they probably never would in their lives (in the army or not). The vast majority are realistic about the dangers and what entails to be a soldier, regardless of who they're enlisted under.

I myself have thought about joining a foreign army mainly because of the options it'd give me. Other armies have far more prospects and career choices available than the PDF. Where would I go if I wanted to some day be a Tank Commander? The BA, US armies would be the first interests, others I'd just have to get over the language barrier (German, French, Sweedish) etc.

FruitLover

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

A desire to be a soldier, which at its core involves killing people.

You keep mentioning 'killing' as if that's all an army does. If you genuinely think that the core of soldiering is firing weapons at people, you have no business commenting in this thread IMO.

pablomakaveli

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

A desire to be a soldier, which at its core involves killing people.

You clearly haven't a clue what a soldiers job entails if you think thats all there is to it.

Wolfe Tone

Could have sworn the main thing an army does, specifically the american army and the BA, is fight, you know, seeing as they are at war?


Not many "jobs" have killing people, or directly contributing to such as a primary function. Or are the guns just for show?

Now you have people joining not out of any noble ideals, not to fight for a just cause, not out of a snse of patriotism, your family and friends arent in danger, you are joining "for a job" to go and "experience conflict"
or:

The BA is a good career path for someone who wants to be a soldier

A career which involves killing people, and risking your life, simply for the sake of it? Sure they do other things, but if they only did those other things you wouldnt need the guns would you?


I dont think it is an erroneous thing to state that someone who wants to be a soldier simply for the sake of it, must have some desire to see combat, and ultimately, kill.

It wasn't me!

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I dont think it is an erroneous thing to state that someone who wants to be a soldier simply for the sake of it, must have some desire to see combat, and ultimately, kill.

I do.

pablomakaveli

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Could have sworn the main thing an army does, specifically the american army and the BA, is fight, you know, seeing as they are at war?


Not many "jobs" have killing people, or directly contributing to such as a primary function. Or are the guns just for show?

Now you have people joining not out of any noble ideals, not to fight for a just cause, not out of a snse of patriotism, your family and friends arent in danger, you are joining "for a job" to go and "experience conflict"
or:



A career which involves killing people, and risking your life, simply for the sake of it? Sure they do other things, but if they only did those other things you wouldnt need the guns would you?


I dont think it is an erroneous thing to state that someone who wants to be a soldier simply for the sake of it, must have some desire to see combat, and ultimately, kill.

There have been a lot of people throughout history who have become soldiers without doing so for what you call "noble ideals". Armies have been a source of steady employment for young men for centuries. It offers adventure and challenges that are unique.

But lets face it. Your objections to people joining a foreign military aren't based on objections to them being put in situations where they may need to take a life now are they?

Wolfe Tone

pablomakaveli wrote: »

There have been a lot of people throughout history who have become soldiers without doing so for what you call "noble ideals". Armies have been a source of steady employment for young men for centuries. It offers adventure and challenges that are unique.

I am sure you can think of other things which do such without needing to kill?

But lets face it. Your objections to people joining a foreign military aren't based on objections to them being put in situations where they may need to take a life now are they?

My "objections" are that people are joining for the wrong reasons, are joining to "experience conflict" and to kill people, and risk their own lives for no reason other than for the sake of it. If I was going to put myself in a position where I would be expected to kill I sure as hell would have a good reason to justify me doing such, beyond "I want to be a soldier"

It wasn't me!

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I am sure you can think of other things which do such without needing to kill?


My "objections" are that people are joining for the wrong reasons, are joining to "experience conflict" and to kill people, and risk their own lives for no reason other than for the sake of it. If I was going to put myself in a position where I would be expected to kill I sure as hell would have a good reason to justify me doing such, beyond "I want to be a soldier"

To be honest it's bloody arrogant to try tell someone (from the outside, as you've not got the experience to tell anyone their perspective is wrong) that their reasons for going into any area of life are "wrong". They're their reasons, and that's all there is to it.

Zambia

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I dont think it is an erroneous thing to state that someone who wants to be a soldier simply for the sake of it, must have some desire to see combat, and ultimately, kill.

I think it is a huge error to state that. Simply because a desire to see combat does not equal a desire to kill.

Soldiers desire to see combat simply because that is the true test of what they do. The months and years of training are never able to be truely tested any other way.

If I schooled you in a subject for months eventually you would relish a test on it.

pablomakaveli

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I am sure you can think of other things which do such without needing to kill?

No. And i doubt i would find something that fill the requirements that a career as a soldier would.

My "objections" are that people are joining for the wrong reasons, are joining to "experience conflict" and to kill people, and risk their own lives for no reason other than for the sake of it. If I was going to put myself in a position where I would be expected to kill I sure as hell would have a good reason to justify me doing such, beyond "I want to be a soldier"

Your making it sound like a soldier just goes out and guns down anything that moves. If a soldier kills anyone it is an enemy soldier who will be trying to kill him. That in itself is a justifiable reason to kill an enemy soldier.

Wolfe Tone

Zambia232 wrote: »

I think it is a huge error to state that. Simply because a desire to see combat does not equal a desire to kill.

Soldiers desire to see combat simply because that is the true test of what they do. The months and years of training are never able to be truely tested any other way.

If I schooled you in a subject for months eventually you would relish a test on it.

And what do they do in combat? Are you saying they are brainwashed into wanting to test their new skills, and kill people?

Wolfe Tone

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Your making it sound like a soldier just goes out and guns down anything that moves. If a soldier kills anyone it is an enemy soldier who will be trying to kill him. That in itself is a justifiable reason to kill an enemy soldier.

Yeah, I forgot soldiers aren't people, and all the "enemies" that get killed are "soldiers". Mistakes happen, innocents die, how can you justify that? Just because you want to be a soldier?
No it isnt, because you have put yourself in that position. Why are you there in the first place? To "be a soldier"? Does a desire to "be a soldier" justify killing? Not in my book.

pablomakaveli

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Yeah, I forgot soldiers aren't people, and all the "enemies" that get killed are "soldiers". Mistakes happen, innocents die, how can you justify that? Just because you want to be a soldier?
No it isnt, because you have put yourself in that position. Why are you there in the first place? To "be a soldier"? Does a desire to "be a soldier" justify killing? Not in my book.

No one can justify innocents dying but most soldiers don't go out to kill innocents and any who do are psychopaths who should be punished. And a desire to be a soldier does not equal a desire to kill but you seem to be unable to grasp that concept are just too ignorant to take it on board.

Wolfe Tone

pablomakaveli wrote: »

No one can justify innocents dying but most soldiers don't go out to kill innocents and any who do are psychopaths who should be punished. And a desire to be a soldier does not equal a desire to kill but you seem to be unable to grasp that concept are just too ignorant to take it on board.

No need to resort to name calling friend.
I think you can justify it tbh, I would imagine it is impossible to mount any kind of war and have only soldiers die. I would imagine most soldiers have a desire to see conflict, and test themselves at what they learned, and what is it they have learned?

Now, you say they don't want to kill people, but odds are if you go to Afganistan etc, you may do so, or help others to do so. Civilians may be killed too. Can you really justify those deaths? Are those deaths OK because you want to be a soldier? Why have they died? Because you want to be a soldier? Is that a good enough reason?


If you have read any of my posts its clear I am not a pacifist, sometimes people have to die, but there sure as hell needs to be a good reason. I don't think a desire to "be a soldier" is a good enough one.

Zambia

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

And what do they do in combat? Are you saying they are brainwashed into wanting to test their new skills, and kill people?

A doctor may like being a doctor does that means he wishes other to get sick? Yes this test may involve people dying but that does not meant a soldier wants to kill.

The legions creed

In combat : you will act without relish of your tasks, or hatred ; you will respect the vanquished enemy and will never abandon neither your wounded nor your dead, nor will you under any circumstances surrender your arms.

Wolfe Tone

Zambia232 wrote: »

A doctor may like being a doctor does that means he wishes other to get sick? Yes this test may involve people dying but that does not meant a soldier wants to kill.

The lgions greed sums it up

In combat : you will act without relish of your tasks, or hatred ; you will respect the vanquished enemy and will never abandon neither your wounded nor your dead, nor will you under any circumstances surrender your arms.

With all due respect thats a silly comparison. A Doctor wants to make people better. Thats his main skill. A huge part of his training was not how to kill people.

Evade

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So why join a foreign army? An insane desire to go kill people in some war which has nothing to do with you, your country and is of no benefit? A desire to see conflict and kill simply for the sake of it?

By this logic why would anyone in the PDF volunteer for any UN or NATO overseas duty?

It wasn't me!

So do you think that soldiering is not an acceptable job? Since we can't possibly know who will be the next person we're tasked with killing or the nature of the next conflict, is it wrong to be a soldier?

Zambia

An army is something that is designed to overcome any obstacle, if it limited itself to not being able to kill then it would not be effective in that regard.

An army is trained to remove an enemy if you dont want them to kill you its easy. Do not get in their way or surrender. Objective achieved and its home in time for tea and biscuits.

pablomakaveli

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

No need to resort to name calling friend.
I think you can justify it tbh, I would imagine it is impossible to mount any kind of war and have only soldiers die. I would imagine most soldiers have a desire to see conflict, and test themselves at what they learned, and what is it they have learned?

Now, you say they don't want to kill people, but odds are if you go to Afganistan etc, you may do so, or help others to do so. Civilians may be killed too. Can you really justify those deaths? Are those deaths OK because you want to be a soldier? Why have they died? Because you want to be a soldier? Is that a good enough reason?


If you have read any of my posts its clear I am not a pacifist, sometimes people have to die, but there sure as hell needs to be a good reason. I don't think a desire to "be a soldier" is a good enough one.

I'm not trying to insult you but that point was made to you several times and you seemed to be ignoring it.

Now looking at Afghanistan the enemy there is the Taliban. They are not above carrying out brutal atrocities against their own people. In this months issue of National Geographic there is a picture of a young woman who had her nose and ears cut off by her husband who is a Taliban fighter because she tried to escape from him. During the Talibans rule they carried out executions in stadiums.

I think fighting the Taliban is a just cause. I believe that if im faced with killing a Taliban soldier it will be justified. I'd like to see afghan people have the oppurtunity to enjoy the same freedoms and oppurtunies i have had in my life. (Freedoms that were also won through war.) I don't have a desire to kill needlessy and i certainly don't want to harm civilians.

Wolfe Tone

That sounds like you would be fighting for a noble cause, in your mind at least, does it not? Rather than just for the sake of it.

A Dub in Glasgo

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I'm not trying to insult you but that point was made to you several times and you seemed to be ignoring it.

Now looking at Afghanistan the enemy there is the Taliban. They are not above carrying out brutal atrocities against their own people. In this months issue of National Geographic there is a picture of a young woman who had her nose and ears cut off by her husband who is a Taliban fighter because she tried to escape from him. During the Talibans rule they carried out executions in stadiums.

I think fighting the Taliban is a just cause. I believe that if im faced with killing a Taliban soldier it will be justified. I'd like to see afghan people have the oppurtunity to enjoy the same freedoms and oppurtunies i have had in my life. (Freedoms that were also won through war.) I don't have a desire to kill needlessy and i certainly don't want to harm civilians.

Why is the Taliban your enemy though? Are you a mercenary?

Zambia

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Why is the Taliban your enemy though? Are you a mercenary?

Thats a silly piont if you join a foriegn army their enemies are your enemies.

pablomakaveli

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

That sounds like you would be fighting for a noble cause, in your mind at least, does it not? Rather than just for the sake of it.

It is a noble cause, but i shouldn't need that as a reason to justify wanting to be a soldier.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Why is the Taliban your enemy though? Are you a mercenary?

A mercenary works purely for money. If i was only motivated by money i'd just find a job that pays more.

And it doesn't require a huge leap to see why someone would be opposed to the Taliban.

A Dub in Glasgo

Zambia232 wrote: »

Thats a silly piont if you join a foriegn army their enemies are your enemies.

Not so silly at all, if you join the BA, why is the Taliban your enemy?

A Dub in Glasgo

pablomakaveli wrote: »

And it doesn't require a huge leap to see why someone would be opposed to the Taliban.

Why don't you join the ANA then?

pablomakaveli

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Why don't you join the ANA then?

I'm not Afghan.

A Dub in Glasgo

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I'm not Afghan.

Are you saying only Afghanis should join the ANA then?

pablomakaveli

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Are you saying only Afghanis should join the ANA then?

I don't think they recruit foreigners.

Zambia

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Not so silly at all, if you join the BA, why is the Taliban your enemy?

Because your in the BA.

A Dub in Glasgo

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I don't think they recruit foreigners.

That is a shame, maybe they should have a winter and summer transfer window a la football then all those who want different experiences, different kill rates can move back and forth to different conflict zones :pac:

A Dub in Glasgo

Zambia232 wrote: »

Because your in the BA.

So why is the Taliban the enemy of the British soldier?