Things to look for with Builders

masterK

I'm in the process of selecting a builder to build a 2 storey extension and was hoping to get ideas of what to look for in the builder besides the price.

1. Should they be registered and with who?
2. What type of insurance should they have?
3. How do they generally expect to be payed? Is it quite common to withhold a large portion of the payment until after a completion cert has been issues by an engineer/architect.

4. Anything else to look out for/request?

davidoco

You must never pay up front for anything. You can bet on the fact that if you pay him an amount that exceeds the amount of work done that the job will be delayed.

If you are getting an engineer to supervise the project it would be worth it to have him call out three times, once when foundation and floor in, once at wall plate level and finally on completion. You might have to pay for each call out but at least you will know that any problems are identified earlier. You would then break up your total payment in three to the builder and only pay when the engineer gives the ok.

wba88

good advice davidoco that will come in useful 4me aswell

Viking House

davidoco wrote:

You must never pay up front for anything.

You must think we are all a bunch of scoundrels .
We often get pre-payments for windows as we like to order them the day we start and have never had problems.

Keep a digi photo record of everything yourself especially the steel and pipework before the floor and beams are poured.

muffler

Viking House wrote:

You must think we are all a bunch of scoundrels

What! never

davidoco

If you find that the builder wants payment up front for stuff he has to order specially you can offer to pay say 1/3 of the cost of the item up front or if he insists ask to see the invoice and say you will pay it yourself.

Remember he may well be getting his 30 or 60 days credit.

With that said remember to have money ready for when he asks for it and not cause hassle for youself by not having money ready when it is due and the work done.

masterK

Thanks for the replies all, some useful information.

Can anybody help with the insurance or registration questions?

Sonnenblumen

Essential that you request the builder to show proof of valid Employer and Public liability insurances. Do not take any excuses, also all site employees should have SafePass (minimum site training course completed).

You can usually tell the cowboys these days, ask for insurance certs, safety signs should be erected outside perimeter fencing, hi viz vests and safety wear (boots, hard hats etc should be worn at all times). If I saw someone on my site without safety wear they'd be sent home.

Keep an eye out for runners etc.

If all the basics are in place, chances are you 'll have an easy time because you'll more likely be dealing with a conscientious professional. Talk is cheap and you'll get a lot of it from mickey mouse builders.

Always look at previous work, one completed with 60 days but also 12 months.

Payment shedules are agreed at outset of project but not unusual to have variations etc during build phase. All invoices should be well documented.

muffler

masterK wrote:

I'm in the process of selecting a builder to build a 2 storey extension and was hoping to get ideas of what to look for in the builder besides the price.

1. Should they be registered and with who?
2. What type of insurance should they have?
3. How do they generally expect to be payed? Is it quite common to withhold a large portion of the payment until after a completion cert has been issues by an engineer/architect.

4. Anything else to look out for/request?

1. The word "registered" is used very loosely. Most people dont even know what it means when they talk about a registerd builder.
Is it VAT registered, C2 registered, Homebond registered, Local Golf Club registered - take your pick
2. Public liability insurance. You will need to take out insuarance to cover fire and storm risks.
3. Dont pay money up front. Stage payments would normally kick in at wallplate level, sealed (roof, windows and doors fitted)and then on completion. The retention issue can be 5% or 10% of the contract price for a period of 1 to 12 months. All depends on what you both agree on. You would be well advised to get a contract drawn up to cover all these points.
4. Things to watch out for - the builder
Seriously though if you dont know too much about the building trade get someone who does to check the works at least once a week.
Any changes being made during construction which involves additional payment - get the estimate in advance and in writing.
Bring the builder to the house before agreeing to anything and point out all the drainage arrangements, water & fuel pipes
, basically anything that ahs to be moved or replaced to accomodate the new works and make sure all those things are included in the price.

muffler

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Keep an eye out for runners etc.

Yes indeed. A lot of builders have been known to turn into athletes

Endymion

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Essential that you request the builder to show proof of valid Employer and Public liability insurances. Do not take any excuses, also all site employees should have SafePass (minimum site training course completed).

You can usually tell the cowboys these days, ask for insurance certs, safety signs should be erected outside perimeter fencing, hi viz vests and safety wear (boots, hard hats etc should be worn at all times). If I saw someone on my site without safety wear they'd be sent home.

Keep an eye out for runners etc.

If all the basics are in place, chances are you 'll have an easy time because you'll more likely be dealing with a conscientious professional. Talk is cheap and you'll get a lot of it from mickey mouse builders.

Always look at previous work, one completed with 60 days but also 12 months.

Payment shedules are agreed at outset of project but not unusual to have variations etc during build phase. All invoices should be well documented.

sarcasm.

1) Remember to have full details of your credit history available for the builders inspection. Your property should be surveyed to insure it won't collapse on top of your builders head.

2) You builders should wear hard hats at all times. Now they might tell yea they don't need them while their plastering, painting, laying flours, digging holes, drinking tea, but thats just them tryign to rob you. Don't take it for a second.

3) Runner are a sign that you builder may be a skanger. Don't trust skanger with your daughters.

4) It is prefectly resonable for you to demand access to other peoples home to inspect the quality of your builders work.

All bull**** aside.

How your builder does his job is nothing to do with you. He might have hard hats and yellow vests, he might not. He certainly won't appreciiate being told what to do. How well and how fast the job is done is another matter. Never pay up front. Builders operate on credit system, ask for invoices and receipt for everything (you shouldn't need to ask) Things like windows and doors are often subject to deposit payment on order, with the balance due on delivery. Pay the deposit if you must be wait till delivery to pay the full amounth.

wrt to registered. Not very builder doesn't need to be registered. Some builders won't deal with enough money in a year to require it.

Sonnenblumen

Carnivore wrote:

How your builder does his job is nothing to do with you.....

wrt to registered. Not very builder doesn't need to be registered. Some builders won't deal with enough money in a year to require it.

Carnivore,

You appear to have little or no knowledge and understanding of even the fundamentals concerning qualifying criteria, insurance, registration and health & safety.

Your attitude of the customer's role convinces me you're a 'Bob the Builder' and hopefully nobody will take your 'advice' too seriously.

Endymion

Meh, I'm not a builder, I'm an engineer, as I've mentioned. I work for a builder during the summers. And have done ever since I was a wee lad(about 8-9 years at this stage). My advice was a sarcastic reply to your's and not to be taken seriously.

1) This is a domestic job. As such you can't apply the same ideas wrt to health and safety and all the rest, which you would on a large scale job involving hundreds of people. You might have four to six people working on a job like this at any stage. Hard hats, high vis vest and steal capped boots would only be used where its sensible to do so. Also how do you plan to insure that your builder obeys all the "rules" you mentioned, before you give him the job? you can't, since chances are he won't have more then one site running at a time. There's domestic work and then there's industrial work they are quiet different.

2) Since you know so much about it, whats the maximum revenue you can earn as a builder, before you are required to register for vat?

muffler

putting a safety helmet, reflective jacket/vest, steel capped boots etc on someone does not make them a good tradesperson.

Likewise a builder can walk around with his C2. his PL insurance, safe pass etc etc but that doesnt say he wont make a balls of the job

rooferPete

Hi,

As far as I recall the turnover limit for VAT registration hasn't changed in years, around the €35,000.00 mark, that's turnover not profit.

As to registration you can ask to see the Tax clearance Cert or C2 but put in writing at tender stage, those who don't have the certs or don't wish to produce them don't have to tender.

Regarding Health and Safety thecustomer can do two things, ask to see a copy of the health and safety statement, if you want to read a document similar in size to a regional telephone directory I'm sure he will oblige.

The second thing is to have it as a condition of the contract that he (or it if Ltd.) indemnifies the employer (you) against any claims for employers and public liabilty etc

Strange thing is if you go for option 1 and there is an accident on site the home owner could find themselves entwined in a battle with the H&S Authority because the builder could claim he thought you knew what you were reading and take responsibility by default !

As to having someone supervise the job, take care to employ a professional, in my many years cointracting I made it clear I would not listen to anything said by the after 6 "experts" or worse the after "Closing Time" experts.

Money ? well that should be sorted out at the beginning of the tender process, I can only speak for myself but I would never give or show a client the invoice, the delivery dockets no problem, they could check the materials used were as specified or agreed and No because two bags of cement were left over did not mean they belong to the customer !

Home extensions and renovations have reached the point where they cost a lot of hard earned money, it can be from a savings account or a loan it's still a lot of money so employ an expert where possible.

.

squire1

Carnivore wrote:

.

1) This is a domestic job. As such you can't apply the same ideas wrt to health and safety and all the rest, which you would on a large scale job involving hundreds of people.

And thats why you will probably find that the majority of deaths and serious injuries in the building industry occur in small little jobs where the contractor couldn't be arsed complying with the law because he is well aware that the HSA do not have the resources available to inspect every mickey mouse job in the country.

To the OP. Beware of contractors that flout the law on Health and Safety. An employees life should be worth the price of a high viz vest or an extra stage of scaffolding.

Endymion

squire1 wrote:

And thats why you will probably find that the majority of deaths and serious injuries in the building industry occur in small little jobs where the contractor couldn't be arsed complying with the law because he is well aware that the HSA do not have the resources available to inspect every mickey mouse job in the country.

Care to back that statement up with some figures please. I'd be surrpised if that was true.

To the OP. Beware of contractors that flout the law on Health and Safety. An employees life should be worth the price of a high viz vest or an extra stage of scaffolding.

Obviously where appropriate safety gear should be used. But you know, there arn't 20 thone trucks banging around a kitchen extension to a house. Often their won't be people working over you head either and not every day is spent hanging out of a scaffolding. Please enough of this. Use some cop on.

Do you do domestic work and if so, do you wear all the safety gear all the time, regardless of the task at hand?

Sonnenblumen

Carnivore wrote:

Meh, I'm not a builder, I'm an engineer, as I've mentioned. I work for a builder during the summers. And have done ever since I was a wee lad(about 8-9 years at this stage). My advice was a sarcastic reply to your's and not to be taken seriously.

1) This is a domestic job. As such you can't apply the same ideas wrt to health and safety and all the rest, which you would on a large scale job involving hundreds of people. You might have four to six people working on a job like this at any stage. Hard hats, high vis vest and steal capped boots would only be used where its sensible to do so. Also how do you plan to insure that your builder obeys all the "rules" you mentioned, before you give him the job? you can't, since chances are he won't have more then one site running at a time. There's domestic work and then there's industrial work they are quiet different.

2) Since you know so much about it, whats the maximum revenue you can earn as a builder, before you are required to register for vat?

Carniovore,

This thread is full of little people with little knowledge and nowhere to go!

I also studied engineering but you are no IEI engineer.

rooferPete

Hi Gents,

I have been on both sides of that fence and while I did not like wearing steel toe cap boots or hard hats I did get a warning on two not very big jobs.

As the roofer I used to LOL and say the only hazard above me was the birds and they didn't have a good aim (most of the time) so no hard hat for this brave kiddy.

The heavy boots were described as a hazard because using a torch I wouldn't feel the heat build up until the steel was burning me (accepted) the other argument was I couldn't feel the laths under my feet when slating (accepted).

On a not so big job a compromise was reached, we would wear the hats when going through the building, boy was I lucky, at the end of the day on leaving carrying my tools I walked into a scaffold bar that hadn't been there before.

A sore neck and minor headache was better than the split head I would have got,on another 30 m roof where the employer (govt) insisted on steel toe caps I was again lucky when my helper stumbled and dropped the roll of felt 50 Kg's at the time, it landed on my foot that was protected by the steel toe cap.

Two minor incidents that could have been serious negligence (not accidents) I was the smart one who had what appeared to be a valid argument, in truth I was wrong the rules are good, they mean safety and we all get to go home every evening.

My €200.00 worth (got to allow for inflation)

.

squire1

Carnivore wrote:

Care to back that statement up with some figures please. I'd be surrpised if that was true.

Sure would. Of the 22 deaths in the construction industry last year 14 were on what would be considered small jobs. i.e less that 10 workers. When looked at with regard to proportion of people working on the sites, you are more likey to be killed building a house that working on a major civil engineering or structural job.

Have a look at www.hsa.ie for plenty more detailed statistics.

Endymion

Sonnenblumen wrote:

I also studied engineering but you are no IEI engineer.

shows what you know.

squire1 I've searched the site and can't find a break down into domestic Vs industrial fatalities. Also what I found stated that there where 23 deaths in construction last year not 22 as you claim.

Ps building a house is hardly something one would call a small job as you put it.

mjffey

OK, question from a foreigner...


Example: I have a builder who is going to build my extension. New walls, new roof etc. One of his employees doesn't were a helmet. he gets something on his head and bang... dead.
Who is responsible? If it's the builder, well then it's not my problem if somebody isn't wearing safete gear. The only thing I can do is ask to wear it. If they don't, they don't. Simple.

If I'm responsible, well then it''s easy also. Anybody not wearing safety gear can go.

Am I seeing this to simple or what?

Endymion

well who pays his wages? Are you in a position to hire or fire people that arn't in your employ? Is safety equipment provided? basically how much responsibility do you have to insure at every moment in the day people on your property are wearing the right gear for the job? All these arguement would make it more difficult to successfully sue you, but you still might be.

If you where his employer and he didn't have safety gear to wear, it would be your fault, also if you never warned him or her of the dangers it would be your fault. Nobody can really say when it wouldn't be your fault with regards to the irish legal system.

Sonnenblumen

Carnivore

why are you being so argumentative? Why are you wasting your time and everyone else's for that matter with your useless nit picking. You have some questionable casual experience with a builder yet you seem to have no understanding of the basic essentials yet your posts masquerade as though your some authority on the matter. You do not even know when a builder applies for VAT, yet you yabbing on about H&S, E & PL I etc etc.

You're some tosser for an engineer, too many hamburgers.

It would give me enormous pleasure to have an opportunity of giving an instant dismissal to anyone adopting similar asshole sentiments on site regarding very important matters.

Endymion

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Carnivore

why are you being so argumentative? Why are you wasting your time and everyone else's for that matter with your useless nit picking.

Hey, you call it nit picking I call it asking someone to back up a claim. He did use the word "probably" after all. I found nothign to support his claim on the site he linked to, and I ask him to point out the figures. If he can i will of course accept his claim.

You have some questionable casual experience with a builder yet you seem to have no understanding of the basic essentials yet your posts masquerade as though your some authority on the matter. You do not even know when a builder applies for VAT, yet you yabbing on about H&S, E & PL I etc etc.

Why is it questionable? I know exactly when someone has to register for vat. I was asking you if you knew. I can talk with some authority on H&S since I've been working on domestic sites since I was a kid. I've never had a serious accident, nor has there been one on any site that I've working on. despite the fact I wear my nice runners to work. I can talk with some authority on E (what is that even ment to be, Europe? YoYo's?), since I'm an electronic/Electrical engineer. As for plumbing, I've installed kitchens, bathrooms and even helped my borther ( a fully qualified plumber from bolton street) install central heating systems. So, yea know, all in all I've a fair bit of experience.

You're some tosser for an engineer, too many hamburgers.

It would give me enormous pleasure to have an opportunity of giving an instant dismissal to anyone adopting similar asshole sentiments on site regarding very important matters.

Leaving aside the personal insults, Don't I need a couple (three I think, might be two) formal warning before you could dismiss me from a site?

mjffey

mjffey wrote:

OK, question from a foreigner...


Example: I have a builder who is going to build my extension. New walls, new roof etc. One of his employees doesn't were a helmet. he gets something on his head and bang... dead.
Who is responsible? If it's the builder, well then it's not my problem if somebody isn't wearing safete gear. The only thing I can do is ask to wear it. If they don't, they don't. Simple.

If I'm responsible, well then it''s easy also. Anybody not wearing safety gear can go.

Am I seeing this to simple or what?

Well I'm 2/3 of the way a self build and the first thing I did was get Liability insurance and to erect a "site safety notice" at the entrance, everyone who enters the site is shown the notice, I believe that it is their responsibitity to comply with the notice and to ensure that their workers also comply.

So far the only injury was to a roofer who hit his finger with a hammer:eek:
My wife gave him a "bob the builder" plaster.

I am responsible for keeping the site safe and tidy, something I have to do after each trade has finished (including myself).

Endymion

Deleted User wrote:

Well I'm 2/3 of the way a self build and the first thing I did was get Liability insurance and to erect a "site safety notice" at the entrance, everyone who enters the site is shown the notice, I believe that it is their responsibitity to comply with the notice and to ensure that their workers also comply.

So far the only injury was to a roofer who hit his finger with a hammer:eek:
My wife gave him a "bob the builder" plaster.

I am responsible for keeping the site safe and tidy, something I have to do after each trade has finished (including myself).

There was a case afew years back where a couple of kids broke into a site, and one of them ended up dying. The contractor was brought to court and forced to pay damages. yea never know.

Carnivore

Carnivore wrote:

There was a case afew years back where a couple of kids broke into a site, and one of them ended up dying. The contractor was brought to court and forced to pay damages. yea never know.

A bit like the woman who microwaved her cat and succesfully sued the manufacturer for not explaining in the instructions that produce is "not suitable for drying pets!!".:rolleyes:

In our situation the site is occupied 24/7. we live in a caravan on-site.
The missus keeps the kids away:D

hiscan

Deleted User wrote:

A bit like the woman who microwaved her cat and succesfully sued the manufacturer for not explaining in the instructions that produce is "not suitable for drying pets!!".:rolleyes:

In our situation the site is occupied 24/7. we live in a caravan on-site.
The missus keeps the kids away:D

best security of them all:D

rooferPete

Hi,

The way I see it, there are no grounds for an argument, in the last few years (since 1993 I think) we have what are Laws that are in place to protect the workers.

There will always be the few who refuse to read the site entry notices and the few who refuse to enforce the Law on there job sites, as one H & S Officer told me the construction industry had grown so fast he felt more like a expert in forensics than enforcement.

Just because for years most men and women went home after a day's work does not mean that today Everybody should not go home because of a €10.00 high vis jacket or hard hat.

There are many who post here that have performed crazy deeds to get a job finished, hindsight being 20 / 20 vision I for one am surprised at the number near misses I had over the years.

Today I have the Law on my side, any employer (in any sector) who expects a job done outside the H & S rules is told NO and they must pay for the scaffolding etc needed to ensure safety or both employees and the public.

Carnivore,

I don't have a web link for you perhaps try the helath services accident and emergency statistics but I do know the majority of non fatal accidents on small jobs go un-reported.

Try getting full employers insurance cover, then argue the amount asked and the insurance companies will give you the exact number of small claims in each sector.

.

squire1

Carnivore wrote:

Ps building a house is hardly something one would call a small job as you put it.

No problem, if you assume a domestic house build is a large job in today's industry then I can hardly expect you to grasp the concept of the importance of health and safety or how to navigate a web site.