Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah Crisis Thread was the "Is Israel right" thread

LegacyUser

Hey guys

Iv been listening to reps. on the radio from different world organisations calling for Isreal to show restraint in thier military actions into Gaza.

Now correct me if im wrong but didnt the Palestinian people vote the terrorist group Hamas into goverment,so shouldnt they take some of the responsibility for the actions of thier Goverment??

I think Isreal is dead right in thier choice of dealing with the kidnapping of one of thier soldiers.With fanatical groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad there is no reasoning with them.....there for Isreal needs to show that when you mess with them the consequences are going to be devestating. Its this show of force and a strong will by Isreal thats needed.I have alot of respect for Isreal...they know thier own mind and is a country that will not under any circumstances be intimidated or terrorised into accecpting suituations that will endanger its people and its standard of living.

Dirk Gently

The only thing Israel is going to achieve is to have 100's of more suicide bombers volunteer their services for the Palestinian cause.

I very much doubt the latest offensive is because of one Israeli soldier. I reckon the soldiers kidnapping was the excuse the Israelis needed to launch the attacks which I'm sure where planned long before the kidnapping and were always going to be executed once they had enough provocation to justify an attack.

After the Hamass gov were elected a lot of funding got cut off and wages are not been paid to most public workers. Moral was low and the conditions were right for a collapse of the hamass gov but now, after Israel stupidly attacked the Palestinian people, the Palestinian movement is united. All the rival Palestinian groups and the Palestinian people themselves are no longer fighting among themselves, but are instead hardened and focused in their hatred for what can only be described as state terrorism from Israel.

Well done Israel, you just made loads of new enemies and killed any chance of a moderate Palestinian group with which to negotiate. Not exactly a sound tactic when trying to defend Israel from attacks. Straight out of the George Bush school of stupidity.

yomchi

kaiser1 wrote:

Hey guys

Iv been listening to reps. on the radio from different world organisations calling for Isreal to show restraint in thier military actions into Gaza.

Now correct me if im wrong but didnt the Palestinian people vote the terrorist group Hamas into goverment,so shouldnt they take some of the responsibility for the actions of thier Goverment??

I think Isreal is dead right in thier choice of dealing with the kidnapping of one of thier soldiers.With fanatical groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad there is no reasoning with them.....there for Isreal needs to show that when you mess with them the consequences are going to be devestating. Its this show of force and a strong will by Isreal thats needed.I have alot of respect for Isreal...they know thier own mind and is a country that will not under any circumstances be intimidated or terrorised into accecpting suituations that will endanger its people and its standard of living.

Your ignorance astounds me. Are you aware of how Israel came into being? Are you aware that they are occupying lands not owned by them?
Are you aware that only last week before Hamas took their soldier, that they launched missiles onto a public beach killing men women and children..the attack was unprovoked.
A lot of respect for Israel? Come back down to earth

yomchi

clown bag wrote:

The only thing Israel is going to achieve is to have 100's of more suicide bombers volunteer their services for the Palestinian cause.

I very much doubt the latest offensive is because of one Israeli soldier. I reckon the soldiers kidnapping was the excuse the Israelis needed to launch the attacks which I'm sure where planned long before the kidnapping and were always going to be executed once they had enough provocation to justify an attack.

After the Hamass gov were elected a lot of funding got cut off and wages are not been paid to most public workers. Moral was low and the conditions were right for a collapse of the hamass gov but now, after Israel stupidly attacked the Palestinian people, the Palestinian movement is united. All the rival Palestinian groups and the Palestinian people themselves are no longer fighting among themselves, but are instead hardened and focused in their hatred for what can only be described as state terrorism from Israel.

Well done Israel, you just made loads of new enemies and killed any chance of a moderate Palestinian group with which to negotiate. Not exactly a sound tactic when trying to defend Israel from attacks. Straight out of the George Bush school of stupidity.

You explained it better than I

BlackWizard

They are not in land that they do not own.

They forced their way onto it and took it over. This has been going on for 1000's
of years, but in this day and age it something that modern society has problems
comprehending.

But Israel have really put their foot in it this time. Its really hard to take anyones
side on the issues in that region. Religion really complicates things.

Sometimes there are more than just the intentions of just one government at hand
also.

Ever since

silverharp

Well lets just say Im glad the Brits never felt it necessary to bomb Dublin from the air during the 70's and 80's , any state that thinks civilian casulties are an acceptable part of their policies doesnt get my support or sympathy.

LegacyUser

I can see where your arguments are coming from...and once upon a time my sympathies leaned more towards the plight of the Palestinians.
But then I saw the videos of the Americans Jack Hensley,Nick Berg and Briton Ken Bigley.These men died a horiffic death all in the name of "Islam".

These people along with Hamas , Islamic Jihad and Al-Queda all have just one goal and that is to destroy OUR ideals and values and to impose upon us the ideals and virtues of a religion that is stuck in a place in time that the rest of the modern world left behind hundreds of years ago.I dont intend to let this thread go off on a tangent but Id just like to justify my last claim.

Where as at one time in history the Christian Church used to burn people at the stake for being "Witches" or torture them to confess crimes against God(i.e during Turqemada s time as head of the Spanish Inquesition),we as a modern,civilised group of nations left that sort of barbarity behind along time ago.....i.e the church developed and changed with time,whereas the Islamic faith hasnt. I remember reading an article in a paper a couple of years ago about a young man on trial in Iran. He was accused of throwing a jar of acid at his friend which hit the victim in the face...the result was the young man lost sight in one of his eyes. The trial (if you could call it that) Judge ordered that according to Shria Law the victim was entitled to an "eye for an eye"....there for the accused was to be surgically blinded!!!
And we all know what happens in Saudi Arabia(beheadings), female mutilation in Nigeria...and we have all seen what those pleasent group of people called the Taliban used to get up to!!

This IMHO is absolute savagery.We look to the Legislature and Judiciary of nations to develop fair,civilised and protective laws.....none of which are evident in countries goverened by extremist islamists.

Isreal is a country that has had to fight for its very existence from the word go....The Jewish people as a race have been the target for destruction at least 5 times in the last 75 years,so no one could blaim them for being a lil bit heavy handed at times.

Now as far as the shelling of the beach I totally agree that was wrong but so was the countless number of times suicide bombers walked into shopping centres,nightclubs,bars and killed countless numbers of people.Isreal did not creat the sucided bomber theIslamic faith did.

The only thing that keeps countries like Syria and Iran in check is Isreal...her Nuclear deterent is what has kept the balance of power firmly in her hands and as far as Amed Denejhad Im sure the offices of Mossad and Shin Bet are a flurry of activity as about how to rid the world of this idiot.

Jordan as a country accepted the existence of Isreal as a nation and has only benifited from it. Its a stable peace loving country and probably one of the only countries in the middle east I would have any intrest in visiting.

Im sorry this spirialed off but its just something I feel stronly about.

fillmore jive

I dont think there will ever be peace in that region. I know it sounds very cynical, but look at the North. Look how many years it took them to get peace up there, and now they can't even decide on power sharing?

The hatred between the Jews and the Arabs is much more than the hatred that exists between the Catholics and the Prodestants. They will keep at it untill it turns into a full-scale war, and the UN or something has to be called in.

DOLEMAN

kaiser1 wrote:

Now correct me if im wrong but didnt the Palestinian people vote the terrorist group Hamas into goverment,so shouldnt they take some of the responsibility for the actions of thier Goverment??

Um... you do know the Israelis kill waaaay more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Israelis? You do know the Palestinians don't have the equipment or army the Israelis have, are absolutely desperate desperate people, hence the suicide bombs? You think people happily decide to be suicide bombers? You have got to be absolutely desperate to do something like that. The Palestinians are people like you and me who live in terrible fear.

Israel is a disgrace.

uberpixie

Israel have commited attrocities in retaliation to Palestinian terrorist attacks.

They have killed over 20,000 defenseless civialians during 1982 in response to palestinian terrorist attacks.

They have made thousands of Palestian civilian homeless through land grabs.

They are not a country to be respected. Any country that has soldiers that get away with rolling over old men in wheel chairs in tanks and shooting Red Cross volunteers is not to be respected.

Would anyone say Enlgand was a great country for shooting innocent, unarmed Catholics in the North on Bloody Sunday, because a minority of the Catholic population took part in terrorics attacks?

Every time a minority of the Palestinian population attack Israel: Israel bomb defenseless civilains in mass numbers.

Very respectable and to be respected. :mad:

There are no good guys or bad guys in this conflict: both sides have commited horrible acts of terrorism.

But you would think a people who were treated so badly during world war II wouldn't turn round a treat another people the same way.

Dub13

Moved from Military.

lostexpectation

no collective punishment is not right

aidan24326

kaiser1 wrote:

Isreal is a country that has had to fight for its very existence from the word go....The Jewish people as a race have been the target for destruction at least 5 times in the last 75 years,so no one could blaim them for being a lil bit heavy handed at times.

Now as far as the shelling of the beach I totally agree that was wrong but so was the countless number of times suicide bombers walked into shopping centres,nightclubs,bars and killed countless numbers of people.Isreal did not creat the sucided bomber theIslamic faith did.

The only thing that keeps countries like Syria and Iran in check is Isreal...her Nuclear deterent is what has kept the balance of power firmly in her hands and as far as Amed Denejhad Im sure the offices of Mossad and Shin Bet are a flurry of activity as about how to rid the world of this idiot.

I think you are dead wrong about Israel. They are in fact the aggressor in that region and their nuclear arsenal does not, as you put it, 'keep Syria and Iran in check', but only gives Israel the power to do as they please and play the bully, with Uncle Sam watching their backs due to the very strong Jewish influence in Washington.

And funny you should mention Mossad. Do you know anything of the history of their activities over the years? Quite possibly one of the most dangerous organisations out there. They are known to have committed some pretty heinous acts which they then used to frame some convenient 'patsy' all in the name of furthering their own (i.e Israel's) agenda. Their motto is 'by deception thou shalt do war' which is telling in itself. They are known to have created fake al-qaeda cells and are suspected of staging terror attacks. Only the CIA could rival them in the 'seriously dodgy' stakes. The sick irony is that these shadowy intelligence and counter-terrorism groups are very often far worse than the 'terrorists' they claim to be protecting us from.

As for Ahmedinejad (correct spelling) he is not an idiot at all. He knows the threat that Israel present in the Middle East region. The current premise for attacking Iran, that they are attempting to create nuclear weapons, is totally unfounded just as it was with Iraq. If I was an Iranian I'd be pretty worried right now, with both the Yanks and the Israelis (moreso) itching to get at them.

The real reasons for this could be a little more complicated than meets the eye. We know why Israel would want to attack them. But why the US, leaving aside the Jewish lobbying influence in US politics and in particular with regard to Middle Eastern policy. Ahmedinejad has announced that pretty soon Iran will begin to trade oil in euros rather than US dollars as has been the case up to now. With Iran being the world's second biggest oil producer this has some potentially serious repercussions for the Americans, for economic reasons I won't go into here. And the US economy is already in trouble with debt spiralling out of control. That, plus the Americans aim to control the Middle Eastern region for their own gain, might go some way to explaining why they've suddenly become so interested in Iran. Note how American foreign policy seems incredibly fickle and changeable, depending on what suits America's own economic and corporate interests at the time.

I do agree that there is a sinister and inherently distasteful and even dangerous side to Islamic fundementalism. It's not just in Islam of course, we see plenty of Christian fundamentalist nutjobs also, but the problem seems especially prevalent in some of the more hardline Islamic states. Very clear proof of the dangers of mass religion when beliefs are taken to an extreme of black and white and not much in the middle. It's pure brainwashing and I don't think it's in any way unfair to call it that. Yes Israel are quite entitled to defend themselves. Of course. And to be fair they are in a precarious geographical position. But it's how they go about it that turns people against them. Their attitude seems to always be you kill one of ours we'll kill 1,000 of yours, you bomb a house we'll take out a hole town etc. It's never even just an eye for an eye with Israel, it's always one of our eyes is worth a few thousand of yours. They will never get much sympathy from me while they persist with this arrogant attitude of Jewish supremacy

Jimboo_Jones

kaiser1 wrote:

Now correct me if im wrong but didnt the Palestinian people vote the terrorist group Hamas into goverment,so shouldnt they take some of the responsibility for the actions of thier Goverment??

Your not wrong, but please note that Israel has also voted into power people from terrorist groups in the past as well.

whats good for the goose etc...

hummm seems the topic was just a pretext to go off on one over muslims, not all muslims are the same as each other you know.

bonkey

kaiser1 wrote:

Now correct me if im wrong but didnt the Palestinian people vote the terrorist group Hamas into goverment,so shouldnt they take some of the responsibility for the actions of thier Goverment??

Yes, they should...morally speaking.

However, does the Hamas majority make the current Israeli actions acceptable? Thats a completely different question.

CNN alleged last night that the Israeli PM stated he didn't want anyone in Ghaza sleeping until this was resolved. Lets just clarify that - if this is correct, the Israeli PM has effectively stated that he wants psy-ops carried out against the civilian population.

I've pointed out before that Israel has a very strange approach to achieving the safty of its civilians, in that it responds far more aggressively when the military is targetted than when its civilians are targetted....in effect sending the message that messing with the military is the wrong option.

These people along with Hamas , Islamic Jihad and Al-Queda all have just one goal and that is to destroy OUR ideals and values

'These people' being the terrorists who carried out the kidnapping in the first place, or the civilian populace who have been targetted in retaliation?

I just ask because I'm curious as to whether you're arguing Israel is right to try and subjugate a people, or something less extreme.

Isreal did not creat the sucided bomber theIslamic faith did.

"He started it" ceases to be a carte-blanche justification for one's own actions after one leaves the school playground.

On a side note, you might want to read Judges 16:23-30 and reconsider.

Or think on what happened at Pearl Harbour.

Perhaps also its worth noting that civilian casualties in WW1 were an estiamted 5% of the total. In WW2, that rose to an estimated 50%. In Vietnam, 90%.

Is it somehow more acceptable to kill civilians without dying yoruself, especially when you're a professional soldier?

Wlful disregard for civilians is thecrime here, not the tiny sub-set which forms suicide bombings. Muslims did not create this disregard, nor is it unique to those amongst them to whom it applies.

This IMHO is absolute savagery.We look to the Legislature and Judiciary of nations to develop fair,civilised and protective laws.....none of which are evident in countries goverened by extremist islamists.

Tell me...what exactly do you find fair civilised and protective about Israel's alleged targetting of civilians (as mentioned earlier in this post) and/or gross disregard for their wellbeing (as mentioned by yourself wrt. the beach shelling)?

This isn't an either/or situation. Its not a case of "they're wrong, therefore we are right whatever we do", for any chosen groupings of them and us.

While both sides continue to use this logic, both sides are wrong, and peace will never be attainable.

fly_agaric

BlackWizard wrote:

They forced their way onto it and took it over. This has been going on for 1000's
of years, but in this day and age it something that modern society has problems
comprehending.

I think people comprehend it all right.

This type of bullshít is more costly now because there are now so many people occupying a finite + very interconnected world and weapons have become very efficient.

Are you saying that people have always done it so its okay?

Who says we shouldn't try to curb this destructive aspect of human nature?

In fact, it may be imperative that we curb it, or at least limit it as much as possible if we are going to avoid wiping ourselves out (or at least sending ourselves back to the stone-age via another world-war) IMO.

kaiser1 wrote:

But then I saw the videos of the Americans Jack Hensley,Nick Berg and Briton Ken Bigley.These men died a horiffic death all in the name of "Islam".

What has that to do with the troubles in Israel/Palestine, which started well before the rise of Islamic fundamentalism? I thought the original palestinian terrorists/freedom fighters (delete as you like) like Arafat were all nationalist, lefty, secularist types?

The Israelis actions and US favouritism towards Israel in this dispute have however done alot to help the growth of Islamic fundamentalism.

I think Israel is right. And so far, on this particular matter, they have shown some restraint. If there is no real attempt to find and hand back the soldier, they should escalate military action.

my_house

Israel are using violence to get what they want. isnt that what 'terrorists' do?

silverharp

aidan24326 wrote:

The real reasons for this could be a little more complicated than meets the eye. We know why Israel would want to attack them. But why the US, leaving aside the Jewish lobbying influence in US politics and in particular with regard to Middle Eastern policy. Ahmedinejad has announced that pretty soon Iran will begin to trade oil in euros rather than US dollars as has been the case up to now. With Iran being the world's second biggest oil producer this has some potentially serious repercussions for the Americans, for economic reasons I won't go into here. And the US economy is already in trouble with debt spiralling out of control.

Oil being sold in Euros is an interesting story, there is a theory out there that that was one of the reasons they went into Iraq as they had started selling oil in Euros, to be honest you will never know for sure but given the fascist tendancies of th US in the last few years it can't be ruled out.To the best of my knowledge Irans oil borse hasn't opened yet. I can't wait for the Russians to start selling oil in Euros or Rubles,

wes

kaiser1 wrote:

female mutilation in Nigeria...

I don't know where you came up with that crap, but that has nothing to do with Islam, such mutilation is prohibited. Anyone carrying it out and saying it is in the name of Islam is either a liar or an idiot. This a crime pure and simple and I don't kwow a single Muslim who would say otherwise. Also last I checked most famale mutilations in Africa are carried out by various tribes etc with there own beliefs in Witches etc. Please do your home work. Mainsteam Islam does not accept such mutilation. Also this has nothing to do with Palestian and most of the things you mention in that post have nothing to do with it. You just seem to want to bash Muslims. Yes, there are some evil men who use religion as an excuse, but that does not represent the rest of us. Someone who blows something up is always gonna get more attention than the rest of us who just want to live our lives.

As for suicide bombing and Israel. That situation is very complex and the fact that you are bringing up stuff that has nothing to do with the topic shows how little you know on the subject.

fly_agaric

Deleted User wrote:

I think Israel is right. And so far, on this particular matter, they have shown some restraint.

I'd hate to see what you'd consider an example of Israel going overboard!

Deleted User wrote:

If there is no real attempt to find and hand back the soldier, they should escalate military action.

In what way? How many Palestinians should die so that Israel can get their man home safe (being naive and assuming that is actually what this is about)?

fly_agaric

fly_agaric wrote:

I'd hate to see what you'd consider an example of Israel going overboard!

There are plenty. Israel has been guilty of gross offences against the Palestinians, and though its all a bit chicken and egg-ish I think they are right on this one. If they carpet bombed the place tomorrow, so be it. I would feel sorry for the civilians who suffer, but you elect terrorists who place preconditions on the release of a kidnap victim and you pay the consequences. If the Irish government had defended the IRA, say when they kidnapped Nairac, I would expect nothing but a serious escalation in British military intervention.

RedPlanet

Deleted User wrote:

There are plenty. Israel has been guilty of gross offences against the Palestinians, and though its all a bit chicken and egg-ish I think they are right on this one. If they carpet bombed the place tomorrow, so be it. I would feel sorry for the civilians who suffer, but you elect terrorists who place preconditions on the release of a kidnap victim and you pay the consequences. If the Irish government had defended the IRA, say when they kidnapped Nairac, I would expect nothing but a serious escalation in British military intervention.

And do you think it'd be ok if they just killed loads of regular irish people? You know, women and children going about their daily business, that type of thing.

RedPlanet

RedPlanet wrote:

And do you think it'd be ok if they just killed loads of regular irish people? You know, women and children going about their daily business, that type of thing.

No. Not at all. Hence I never made that argument.

Dirk Gently

Deleted User wrote:

If they carpet bombed the place tomorrow, so be it.

You are a complete [insert word here that wont get me banned from this forum]. You have a simplistic view of the situation. How can you approve a massacre of innocent civilians? What about all those who didn't vote for hamass. What about the kids who can't vote. If you think this action is about one soldier then you're an even bigger [insert word here that wont get me banned] than I originally thought you were.

Can you tell me how the Israeli state murdering and terrorising a whole population of another state is going to improve the security of Israel itself? Carpet bombing, how civilised. Unfortunately people of your mentality are actually in positions of power though, and that is the problem.

DOLEMAN

clown bag wrote:

You are a complete [insert word here that wont get me banned from this forum]. You have a simplistic view of the situation.

I learned a long time ago not to argue with immature, unknowledgeable people. Don't waste your time! You'll just get a headache...

DOLEMAN

DOLEMAN wrote:

I learned a long time ago not to argue with immature, unknowledgeable people.

I have a sister living in Israel.

Did you once read about it in a book? I guess that makes you more knowledgeable than me so.

When people have to resort to personal abuse, then there really is no point debating. As I said, if Israel have to interevene, so be it. I wouldn't welcome the deaths of innocents, but I recognise the realities that this is what happens in a war. And if the parties clash over this particular issue, I happen to think that on this particular issue the PLO and Hamas are very wrong. The soldier should be handed back and what passes for normal relations resumed.

Dirk Gently

DOLEMAN wrote:

I learned a long time ago not to argue with immature, unknowledgeable people. Don't waste your time! You'll just get a headache...

I thought I did too, although it appears I'm having a relapse.

Frederico

Deleted User wrote:

I have a sister living in Israel.

Did you once read about it in a book? I guess that makes you more knowledgeable than me so.

When people have to resort to personal abuse, then there really is no point debating. As I said, if Israel have to interevene, so be it. I wouldn't welcome the deaths of innocents, but I recognise the realities that this is what happens in a war. And if the parties clash over this particular issue, I happen to think that on this particular issue the PLO and Hamas are very wrong. The soldier should be handed back and what passes for normal relations resumed.

Taking your logic and applying the opposite..

If the Israeli's capture a palestinian soldier, then the palestinians are justified in killing innocent civilians to force Israeli to hand him back.. the realities of war right?


Its like something Anna Coultier would say, you just can't apply logic to it.

RedPlanet

Deleted User wrote:

As I said, if Israel have to interevene, so be it. I wouldn't welcome the deaths of innocents, but I recognise the realities that this is what happens in a war. And if the parties clash over this particular issue, I happen to think that on this particular issue the PLO and Hamas are very wrong. The soldier should be handed back and what passes for normal relations resumed.

And how many Palestinian lives equal one Israeli soldier?

DOLEMAN

Deleted User wrote:

I have a sister living in Israel.

So? I have a Irish friend living in Gaza.

My brothers a Doctor. Does that make me knowledgeable about medicine...?

Deleted User wrote:

Did you once read about it in a book? I guess that makes you more knowledgeable than me so.

You assume a lot.

My opinions are based on your lack of understanding in your postings.

What age are you?