Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah Crisis Thread was the "Is Israel right" thread

tallus

Unfortunately it's the "people" who will suffer most Jakkass, because both sides don't discriminate against civilian targets. I dont think an escalation in the violence will do any good for the middle east 'cept maybe further instill the bitterness and hatred that already exists.

Bookee

Interesting article from the Guardian:

The framing of Hizbullah

Israel's response to its soldiers' capture is part of a hamfisted attempt to redraw the region's map

Amal Saad-Ghorayeb in Beirut
Saturday July 15, 2006
The Guardian


The capture of three Israeli soldiers by the Lebanese resistance movement, Hizbullah, to bargain for prisoner exchange should come as no surprise - least of all to Israel, which must bear its own responsibility for the abductions and is using this conflict to pursue its wider strategic aims.

The prisoners Hizbullah wants released are hostages who were taken on Lebanese soil. In the successful prisoner exchange in 2004, Israel held on to three Lebanese detainees as bargaining chips and to keep the battle front with Hizbullah open. These detentions have become a cause celebre in Lebanon. In a recent poll, efforts to effect their release attracted majority support, much more even than the liberation of Shebaa Farms, the disputed corridor of land between Syria and Lebanon still occupied by Israel.

Article continues
The domestic significance of these hostages is ignored by those who choose to reduce the abductions to an act of solidarity with Palestinians in Gaza. Indeed Israel's media are aware of recent attempts to capture soldiers, including a botched attempt a few months ago in which three Hizbullah fighters were killed. Hizbullah's leader, Hassan Nasrallah, confirmed the attack took five months to plan. Its timing was probably a coincidence. It would seem, though, Hizbullah exerts some influence over the fighters in Gaza - those who captured Corporal Shalit were at the very least inspired by Hizbullah.

The regional significance of the abductions has also been misconstrued. To suggest Hizbullah attacked on the orders of Tehran and Damascus is to grossly oversimplify a strong strategic and ideological relationship. Historically there has been an overlap of interests between Syria, Iran, Hizbullah and Hamas. Together they form a strategic axis - the "axis of terror" to Israel - that confronts US-Israeli designs to redraw the map of the region.

But the nature of that relationship has changed much over the years. Since Syrian forces left Lebanon, Hizbullah has become the stronger party. It has never allowed any foreign power to dictate its military strategy.

It is ironic, given Israel's bombing of civilian targets in Beirut, that Hizbullah is often dismissed in the west as a terrorist organisation. In fact its military record is overwhelmingly one of conflict with Israeli forces inside Lebanese territory. This is just an example of the way that the west employs an entirely different definition of terrorism to the one used in the Arab world and elsewhere, where there is a recognition that terrorism can come in many forms.

The attempt to frame Hizbullah as a terrorist organisation is very far from political reality in Lebanon, from public opinion across the Arab and Islamic world, and from international law.

Israel's disproportionate response to the soldiers' capture will have an impact on Lebanese domestic policy. Hizbullah has recently proposed a comprehensive national defence strategy; the Lebanese government has yet to come up with anything similarly convincing. If demands for a prisoner exchange are successful then it shows that what Hizbullah would term the logic of resistance is the most effective defence strategy. Israel's escalation has been a poor PR exercise. Even if it succeeds in showing the Lebanese people that Hizbullah can be a liability, this may well be cancelled out by Israel's own aggression, which will only confirm Hizbullah's repeated warnings of the constant threat posed by Israel.

· Amal Saad-Ghorayeb is assistant professor of political science at the Lebanese-America University.

dathi1

Thank you both for your kind wishes. It's been a rough few days and does not look like it is going to end anytime soon now that Syria is lending its support to Hezbollah. I would like to add that I hope that innocent civilians in Lebanon will come to no harm, as it is not Israel's intention to do so.

Well they unintentionally slaughtered 12 innocent villagers this morning and probably will unintentionally murder more innocent women and children as the day progresses.

How exactly? Would you care to explain because I am completely baffled by your statement..

In the same way Hezbollah and Hamas were formed...directly as a result of Zionist expansionism and slaughter.

The following two links quoting people who live in the region give a completely different picture to the one you are trying to paint. But hey if someone from "outside the bubble" says it then it must be right because you indeed hold (cough) an objective view (cough).

You sound delighted that you've got some divisions showing up!! well done. Don't lecture the rest of the world about bubbles especially here in Ireland as I'm sure you're aware we dont fall for that victim bull****.
Diesel's 1.12 at the pump today thanks to Israel. Tomorrow it may be your Job!

Slainte70

dathi1 wrote:

Well they unintentionally slaughtered 12 innocent villagers this morning and probably will unintentionally murder more innocent women and children as the day progresses.

The Hizbollah terrorist who decided to fire a katyusha rocket from his private home while his wife and 10 young children were at home, is responsible. It's a pity he did not think more of the safety of his family than blowing up Israeli towns.

dathi1 wrote:

In the same way Hezbollah and Hamas were formed...directly as a result of Zionist expansionism and slaughter.

I presume your source for such a false statement is unavailable at this time.
Let me provide you with a link as to how Al Queda was formed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda

dathi1 wrote:

You sound delighted that you've got some divisions showing up!! well done. Don't lecture the rest of the world about bubbles especially here in Ireland as I'm sure you're aware we dont fall for that victim bull****.
Diesel's 1.12 at the pump today thanks to Israel. Tomorrow it may be your Job!

I don't know where you got that impression from. I really feel for ya Diesel and Petrol prices soaring. May I suggest you ride a bicycle from now on to work...who knows less cars on Irish roads would reduce the tragic deaths on Irish roads.

Bookee

Slainte70 wrote:

"The Hizbollah terrorist"


Yawn, Yawn ....... !!

Prefer to call him The Hizbollah Fighter, myself; but Mr Bush certainly has a great influence on us these days, eh!

Manic Moran

Slainte70 wrote:

Manic Moran, I would not usually use Jerusalem Post as a reference exactly for the reason that you have suggested. However, please note that under the heading, the article was written by Associated Press...

Fair point, you have me there.

From that Guardian article...

Israel's disproportionate response to the soldiers' capture

Considering what happened the last time Israel had a couple of soldiers kidnapped by Hezbullah, what did anyone reasonably expect would happen? Especially since another troop had been abducted just the week before.

Note this claim in the first paragraph:

Israel, which must bear its own responsibility for the abductions and is using this conflict to pursue its wider strategic aims.

Please also note that nowhere in the article does the good Professor attempt to describe those wider aims, or how re-invading a country that they pulled out of six years earlier can possibly help them.

NTM

dathi1

The Hizbollah terrorist who decided to fire a katyusha rocket from his private home while his wife and 10 young children were at home, is responsible. It's a pity he did not think more of the safety of his family than blowing up Israeli towns

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5182564.stm Wrong again mate. The old rocket in the house script is a bit worn at this stage. it seems they just pullverised a minibus.

On a more trivial note I'm just pissed that I may not be able go to Beruit in September with my mate as planed.

Pa ElGrande

The disaster that overtook one of the Israeli Navy’s state of the art warships, Ahi-Hanit, was thoroughly planned in advance by an enemy which managed to take Israel’s military commanders by surprise. It has shocked Israel’s military to a degree comparable to the profound effect on US forces of al Qaeda’s 2000 attack on the USS Cole in Aden.

Hizballah Brings out Iranian Silkworm to Hit Israel Navy Corvette
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1184

The Isreali's tactics are currently to hit hard, based on a foregone conclusion based on their predudice's against their opposition. All they have done is rendered the Lebonese government impotent so this will escalate for a few months until a stalemate is reached, then they will start negotiating the return of the prisoners, which is Hezbollah's game plan.

A Dub in Glasgo

Slainte70 wrote:

The Hizbollah terrorist who decided to fire a katyusha rocket from his private home while his wife and 10 young children were at home, is responsible. It's a pity he did not think more of the safety of his family than blowing up Israeli towns.

Oh dear, it looks as if somebody is gulping the hook, line and sinker from the Israeli Ministry of Propaganda. Keep believing that the Israelis are not carrying out terrorist acts, murdering woman and children.

pork99

The key difference between Hizbollah/Hamas terrorists and the IDF is that their attacks primarily target civilians. The IDF targets an enemy which attacks like a conventional enemy (rocket barrages, commando raids) but which is embedded in the civilan population. Any counterstrike is therefore bound to hit innocent bystanders and I believe this suits Hizbollah perfectly.

That's the Israeli dilemma - to nothing only invites more attacks but to counter attack makes you the villain in the eyes of the world because you cannot avoid hitting non -combatants so it's a victory for Hizbollah either way.

Another thing to consider is the timing of all this at the same time as the G8 - are they discussing the Hizbollah/Hamas sponsor Iran's nuclear program? No - it's been overshadowed by all this hasn't it? Cute feckers the Iranians.

Bookee

Doesn't Israel run the risk of actually KILLING the very two soldiers they're so intent on "rescuing".....?

Slainte70

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Oh dear, it looks as if somebody is gulping the hook, line and sinker from the Israeli Ministry of Propaganda. Keep believing that the Israelis are not carrying out terrorist acts, murdering woman and children.

I Originally Posted by dathi1
"Well they unintentionally slaughtered 12 innocent villagers this morning and probably will unintentionally murder more innocent women and children as the day progresses."

I assumed Dathi1 was referring to the strike on Dweir village, where I read on Press Display in one of the international newspapers...when I find the article I will post it.

Regarding the regrettable incident this morning involving the civilians in the minibus:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/15/mideast/index.html

"The Lebanese minibus that was hit was carrying passengers on a coastal road from Shamaa to Bayada, according to Lebanese internal security forces.

It had stopped at a United Nations base where the passengers asked for shelter but were turned away, a security official said."


On another note to date, Hizbollah have fired 761 (oops sorry make that 762) katyushas rockets into Israel over the past four days.

Bookee

[PHP]On another note to date, Hizbollah have fired 761 (oops sorry make that 762) katyushas rockets into Israel over the past four days.[/QUOTE]
[/PHP]

What's the count of what's been fired into Gaza, Beirut, Juania .....?

Slainte70

[HTML]What's the count of what's been fired into Gaza, Beirut, Juania .....?[[/HTML]

I honestly do not know..however international media seems to be giving the majority of coverage to what is happening across Lebanon and what is happening on this side of the border as a side note. If I come across the exact count of Israeli missles fired, I will update you.

Morlar

Slainte70 wrote:

[HTML]What's the count of what's been fired into Gaza, Beirut, Juania .....?[[/HTML]

I honestly do not know..however international media seems to be giving the majority of coverage to what is happening across Lebanon and what is happening on this side of the border as a side note.

Why do you think that is ?

A Dub in Glasgo

Slainte70 wrote:

I Originally Posted by dathi1
"Well they unintentionally slaughtered 12 innocent villagers this morning and probably will unintentionally murder more innocent women and children as the day progresses."

I assumed Dathi1 was referring to the strike on Dweir village, where I read on Press Display in one of the international newspapers...when I find the article I will post it.

Regarding the regrettable incident this morning involving the civilians in the minibus:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/15/mideast/index.html

"The Lebanese minibus that was hit was carrying passengers on a coastal road from Shamaa to Bayada, according to Lebanese internal security forces.

It had stopped at a United Nations base where the passengers asked for shelter but were turned away, a security official said."


On another note to date, Hizbollah have fired 761 (oops sorry make that 762) katyushas rockets into Israel over the past four days.

Massacring civilian men, women & children is regrettable but we are going to do it anyway!! oh dear....

762 Katysha rockets? Not many casualties in comparison to the high-tech top notch rockets & artillery that the Israelis are using to carry out terrorist strikes against civilians and civilian infrastructure. But hey, that does not matter does it?

Bookee

[HTML]762 Katysha rockets? Not many casualties in comparison to the high-tech top notch rockets & artillery that the Israelis are using to carry out terrorist strikes against civilians and civilian infrastructure. But hey, that does not matter does it?[/QUOTE]
[/HTML]

But that's the Israeli "ARMY" ..... !!;)

Slainte70

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

762 Katysha rockets? Not many casualties in comparison to the high-tech top notch rockets & artillery that the Israelis are using to carry out terrorist strikes against civilians and civilian infrastructure. But hey, that does not matter does it?

These conventional rockets have destroyed homes...lucky for the owners they evacuated on time...the majority are direct hits. However, we have been advised to stay in bomb shelters, which is probably the reason for "not many casualties". It is certainly not because of the lack of Hizbollah's efforts to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible.

A Dub in Glasgo

Slainte70 wrote:

These conventional rockets have destroyed homes...lucky for the owners they evacuated on time...the majority are direct hits. However, we have been advised to stay in bomb shelters, which is probably the reason for "not many casualties". It is certainly not because of the lack of Hizbollah's efforts to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible.

and the civilians in Lebanon don't get that chance but it is not the fault of the Israelis... right? It is always that the rocket fired from miles up was targetted and tough **** on the civilians who are in the way... right?

Bookee

Shame the Palestinians and Lebanese don't have the luxury of "Shelters".

Slainte70

Bookee wrote:

Shame the Palestinians and Lebanese don't have the luxury of "Shelters".

No, they are too busy digging tunnels, making bombs and wrapping their shahideem up with explosives. I bet their bloody leaders( the likes of Nasralleh, Hanehiya&Co.) have bomb shelters though and when they do their "walkabout", they surround themselves with innocent children and women just for high impact if targetted so as there will be international outrage and condemnation.

Morlar

Slainte70 wrote:

No, they are too busy digging tunnels, making bombs and wrapping their shahideem up with explosives.

What all of the civilian population are terrorists now yep ?

I doubt the palestinians or lebaneese could do much as regards building a shelter against a half ton bomb (such as israel has used) - a bit of a disparity between that and a katusha dont you think ?

PS to answer the question from earlier that you ignored - the reason the non u.s.a media has focused on lebaneese civilian casualties is because there is a massive difference between what -5 israeli civilians killed in the last 5 days by terrorists and almost 70 civilian men women and children who have been murdered by the so called civilised state of israel.

Bookee

Haven't heard about any bombs or suicide bombers during the last few days, only rockets, and of course the Israeli "Military" attack. Don't think there would be too many 'walkabouts' either with Israel seeking to rescue their abducted soldiers. Parents of the soldiers must be thrilled with the gentle, covert operation to find the abducted soldiers.....?
Bet there's Sat TV and kosher nosh in the shelters...(visualisation i have!) ?

Slainte70

Morlar wrote:

What all of the civilian population are terrorists now yep ?

Morlar, I think you know exactly what I meant..

Morlar wrote:

I doubt the palestinians or lebaneese could do much as regards building a shelter against a half ton bomb (such as israel has used) - a bit of a disparity between that and a katusha dont you think ??

Both can and have killed people...

Morlar wrote:

PS to answer the question from earlier that you ignored - the reason the non u.s.a media has focused on lebaneese civilian casualties is because there is a massive difference between what -5 israeli civilians killed in the last 5 days by terrorists and almost 70 civilian men women and children who have been murdered by the so called civilised state of israel.

Yes you are correct but this gives a picture to the international community, who do not follow the crisis in the Middle East, that it is all one-sided and all is "rosy in the garden" in Israel. As a mother of three young children, it is very unsettling. It is an extremely tense and emotional situation here, which seems to be getting worse hour by hour.

(Off topic): Enjoyed viewing your Photo Gallery by the way.

Morlar

(on topic) Whatever shred of respect that exsisted for the state of israel is now gone thanks to their slaughter of these innocent lebaneese civilians. Everytime the international community starts to forget about israeli aggression - they go and push their luck just that 10 steps too far.

They are an international disgrace and were it not for their US- UN Veto their actions would not be tolerated. Shame on Russia and China for not standing up to them - we all know america never will - and that is bad for the rest fo the world.

Personally I will boycott anything israeli from this point on and would urge everyone else to do the same. That includes anything in a shop - their football team - their eurovision entry - any and everything that emanates from the state of israel is shameful from this point on in my opinion. They are an aggressor state of warmongerers.

They are so expert at portraying themselves as victims however the numbers speak for themselves and their lies are starting to fall on deaf ears. (with all respect).

Slainte70

Hezbollah and the international community told us to leave Lebanon and the attacks will stop. We left in September 2000....one month later, three Israeli soldiers were kidnapped and the attacks have not stopped since.

The Palestinians and the international community told us to dismantle the the Gaza settlements and the attacks will stop. We pulled out of Gaza in August 2005...the morning after quassams were fired on Israeli towns and have not stopped since.

Enough is enough!

Bookee

Personally I will boycott anything israeli from this point on and would urge everyone else to do the same. That includes anything in a shop - their football team - their eurovision entry - any and everything that emanates from the state of israel is shameful from this point on in my opinion.

(Just did!)

That's a very good idea. Definitely. People should really think about it, as there's not alot can be done, what with the "Politics" that surrounds the "Sovereign State of Israel".

Slainte70

Slainte70 wrote:

Nazralleh and Hizbollah know this only too well yet they continue with this provocation, entering Israel, killing eight soldiers and kidnapping two soldiers. Israel pulled out of Lebanon in September 2006…there was absolutely no legitimate reason for Hizbollah to commit this act of war.


[\QUOTE]
Should that not be september 2000?

Slainte70

Slainte70 wrote:

Hezbollah and the international community told us to leave Lebanon and the attacks will stop. We left in September 2000....one month later, three Israeli soldiers were kidnapped and the attacks have not stopped since.

The Palestinians and the international community told us to dismantle the the Gaza settlements and the attacks will stop. We pulled out of Gaza in August 2005...the morning after quassams were fired on Israeli towns and have not stopped since.

Enough is enough!

To be honest.The west only wants this settled so that we can have cheap oil.Ye are attacking back disproportionally.four israelis killed,over 80 lebanese civilians.Its just going to make more lebanese hate ye.

Plus bombing the lebanese/syrian border is just tempting fate.It was a provocative strike aimed at bringing Iran into the war.

philologos

did anyone see the protest on O'Connell St today, I was proud that people are willing to stand up and be counted!! (I got some pics that I could post up if people wanted)