Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah Crisis Thread was the "Is Israel right" thread

darkman2

Isreal has the right to defend itself however this use of force is way over the top. They may be sowing the seeds of their own destruction, not immediately though. The international community dosnt like this messing around and good will for Isreal will be strained the longer this continues. As for Hezbollah - their fook wits too. I have no time for either side in this conflict.....

philologos

posted up images on by blog @ journals.ie click here to see pics

DublinWriter

darkman2 wrote:

Isreal has the right to defend itself however this use of force is way over the top.

It's Saturday, 00.22, and for the last hour I've been tuned into a live feed on Arabsat watching Beruit being indescriminately shelled at least once every 60 seconds by Israel.

For shame.

philologos

I admire your dedication!

fredzer

aidan24326 wrote:

kaiser1 wrote:

I do agree that there is a sinister and inherently distasteful and even dangerous side to .


even dangerous! slight understatement dont you think?

KerranJast

DublinWriter wrote:

It's Saturday, 00.22, and for the last hour I've been tuned into a live feed on Arabsat watching Beruit being indescriminately shelled at least once every 60 seconds by Israel.

For shame.

They may be overly aggressive in their air strikes but I somehow doubt the Israelis are simply blowing up random bits of Beirut for kicks. From what I've seen on the news feeds they are specifically targeting infrastructure and Hezbollah staging sites. Unfortunately for the Lebanese, Hezbollah like hiding in civilian areas and they don't seem to be too bothered about what they hit with their rockets into Israel (they even hit an civilian Egyptian ship ffs.)

Bookee

But what if they "BLOW UP" the very soldiers they are trying to rescue - They are still trying to locate them right?
Isn't that why they fired into Lebannon in the first place, because they knew Hizbollah had kidnapped them...?

Sand

To be honest.The west only wants this settled so that we can have cheap oil.Ye are attacking back disproportionally.four israelis killed,over 80 lebanese civilians.Its just going to make more lebanese hate ye.

Its not Celebrity Big Brother. The Arab world already hates Israel/Jews, so lost cause. After all, books like Mein Kampf are best sellers in countries like Egypt.

They have retaliated very strongly with assasination strikes in Gaza and border closures each time Hamas lauched rockets into Israel.

And? If someone is attacking you, of course youll try to kill them first...

It is a cliche, but it doesn't make it any less true as far as it goes.

Its about as useful/true as that other profound phrase, "Its a game of two halves".

The phrase doesn't make a judgement on the "freedom fighters".

Exactly?

Its evasion and intellectual cowardice. Rather than being brave enough to make a decision about what *they* think about an act, they just run away. No one with a ounce of sense would go, "Oh the SS, well you know, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". Theyd condemn them, their idealogy and their acts for two reasons A) To conform or because they examine their idealogy and acts and find them repellant. Type A people are sheep, but at least theyre conforming to the correct view in that case.

In situations where there is no unchallenged view to conform to (Palestinian groups like Hamas who have great PR in Ireland and elsewhere and are styled "resistance groups" or "freedom fighters") sheep flee from the horror of have to make their own minds up by saying "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter", like it means anything.

There are of course people who view terrorists as freedom fighters. Witness the sickening rock star welcome the SF party gave to the Balcombe Street cowards. So what? This does not alter the reality that terrorists are *still* terrorists and that the people who believe otherwise are *wrong*.

Deliberately shooting children on school bus with an assault rifle when it stops at a traffic light is *wrong*. Always. There is *no* excuse. It is always terrorism, it is never "freedom fighting". And stupid phrases like "one mans terrorist..." do not alter that.

Hizbollah have more support in Lebanon (and crucially, from ouside) than the 'Ra and SF ever dreamed of having here (or ever got from ousiders) but they are not synonymous with "Lebanon" or "the Lebanese people".

Hizbollah are a well represented political party in the Lebanese parliment and are using its terroritory - unchallenged - to launch attacks on Israel. That implies at the very least that the Lebanese government has no issues with those attacks. Ireland on the other hand deployed the Gardai and the Army to defeat SFIRA and seek out and destroy their arms dumps. The analogy between UK-Ireland and Israel-Lebanon is crap.

Whatever shred of respect that exsisted for the state of israel is now gone thanks to their slaughter of these innocent lebaneese civilians.

Slaughter of innocent Israeli civillians doesnt seem to hurt the PR of the Palestinian terrorist groups so I doubt theyre overly concerned.

Bookee

But what if they "BLOW UP" the very soldiers they are trying to rescue - They are still trying to locate them right?
Isn't that why they fired into Lebannon in the first place, because they believe that's where they were taken to....?

philologos

won't this bombing campaign influence Hezbollah to just slit their throats.

Sand

won't this bombing campaign influence Hezbollah to just slit their throats.

That would imply that the Israeli response wasnt easily predictable. Hizbollah expected the Israelis would pound Lebanon.

Unless the two soldiers are being groomed for a video appearance on some extremist video site then theyre worth more alive than dead, especially having gone to the bother of having captured them in the first place. Essentially, Hizbollah and Hamas are both well aware they can end the Israeli campaigns at any moment by releasing the soldiers.

Villain

The missiles used to attack Haifa were supplied by Iran or Syria, Iran says Israel now faces "unimaginable losses" and Syria has vowed a "firm, direct and unlimited" response if it is attacked. This is getting out of control big time and it looks like the Israelis may now cross the border and enter Southern Lebannon.

Basically imo Iran and Syria are fighting Israel in Lebannon and Israel see no option but to quash the attack however innocent civilians are part of the threat.

Bookee

[HTML]Hizbollah expected the Israelis would pound Lebanon. [/HTML]

Or to perhaps peacefully release the Women & Children being held in Israeli
jails..... ! Obviously willing to let Israel keep the male prisoners. :rolleyes:

Sand

Or to perhaps peacefully release the Women & Children being held in Israeli
jails..... ! Obviously willing to let Israel keep the male prisoners.

Yeah, until they captured another 2 or 3 soldiers the next week and demanded the male prisoners release.

The Palestinians have used women and children to launch suicide terrorist attacks on civillians before, so I wouldnt hand them back the means to do so again, as it would only encourage further capture/handovers.

Whatever about Hamas, Hizbollah knew exactly what response the Israelis would offer.

Bookee

Sand wrote:

Yeah, until they captured another 2 or 3 soldiers the next week and demanded the male prisoners release.

Sure we'll never know now, will we....

Sand

Sure we'll never know now, will we....

Thats what we have common sense for. Having a good idea of why a course of action is a bad one without carrying it out to prove it. Like sticking your hand in a fire. We know its probably hot, but well never know unless we stick our hand in. It could be the first cold fire in history afterall. Common sense prevails in most cases...

Bookee

Sand wrote:

The Palestinians have used women and children to launch suicide terrorist attacks on civillians before,

You hardly think they're just waiting for these particular ones...? If and when required I'm sure there's a constant supply of volounteers.

Yes, as I said, we'll never know

BlackWizard

Sometimes I feel that they all just hate each other and are looking for an excuse
to fight. While doing this they need to make this excuse so good that they could
make the opposing side look bad on the international stage.

The problem is never ending when they all hate each other because of the past
and religous beliefs. War will start. War will end. Resistance groups will continue
to fight. War will start...

The sooner they all run out of oil down there the better. Then we can just let the
countries destroy each other without worrying about our oil. The natural process
is the best but most costly on human life.

DublinWriter

BlackWizard wrote:

The sooner they all run out of oil down there the better. Then we can just let the countries destroy each other without worrying about our oil.

Which just proves my point that Ireland is in greater danger from Me Fein than it is from Sinn Fein.

Without the help we got from the International Community, especially the US and Clinton, there'd still be lumps getting blown out of Belfast on a weekly basis.

dathi1

The Palestinians have used women and children to launch suicide terrorist attacks on civillians before,

ah yeah Sand...same old same old....The delivery method is very important. Kill Innocent civilians with "women and children" :rolleyes: or with F1-11s. The result is still the same except as you know the Israelis always get the bigger body count. So much so I heard an Israeli guy on BBC Radio 5 yesterday bringing in the death toll in Mumbai to further the slaughter and break-up of Lebanon.

Diesel is now 1:14 at the Pump...Tomorrow it will be your Job...Thanks Israel!

DublinWriter

KerranJast wrote:

From what I've seen on the news feeds they are specifically targeting infrastructure and Hezbollah staging sites.

Ah yes, because the Hezbollah are a guerilla movement, they have several key 'staging points' and 'training camps' well signposted and clearly visable from the air! Not.

The Hezbollah are like the IRA in that they are a guerilla movement and don't use fixed locations for training or grouping. Ever.

KerranJast wrote:

Unfortunately for the Lebanese, Hezbollah like hiding in civilian areas

Yes, their houses, and usually at night when they are sleeping.

There were over 23 children and at least 5 women killed this week in just two airstrikes on Lebanon. That's just two examples of many.

Transpose the situation to this part of the world. Just for a second imagine the Hezbollah are the IRA, enjoying marginal support in a few areas. Imagine after the Arnale centre bomb the British sending in the RAF to bomb the Falls Road and Divis Flats. Could you imagine the support the IRA would have after something like that happened?

The IDF are the best recruiting sergeant the Hezbollah could ever wish for.

Slainte70

Some views from the region:

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&threadID=2593&start=60&tstart=0&edition=2&ttl=20060716192736&#paginator

To my Arab brothers elsewhere. My family lives in Haifa for dozens of years next to Jews. Not even once we felt a treat from the Jewish majority. I believe that if it was other way around, Jewish family living in Arab city, they would not last. The first time in our life we felt death treat was today, when our brothers sent the missile to Haifa. Our experience shows that Israelis have no intention of hurting us the Arabs, but they will never give up on some one who hurts them.

Munir, Haifa

Where the hell is the rest of the world??????
Leaving our country to bleed to death.....

Hezboallah, Syria and Iran are using our country as a battle ground against israel.
Only innocent lebanese children and their mothers are paying the price of political conflicts.
All we want is to live in peace, Our goverment s a weak goverment guided by syria, and hezbollah is guided by Iran.
Why don;t they fight from their countries why should Lebanon always pay the price.....

Nayef, Beirut

fly_agaric

Sand wrote:

Its not Celebrity Big Brother. The Arab world already hates Israel/Jews, so lost cause. After all, books like Mein Kampf are best sellers in countries like Egypt.

I know! Lets keep going to the end of the line with that argument.

If it is so completely hopeless, why doesn't Israel just get it's retaliation in first against the evil Arab Hordes threatening it rather than wait for the likely future increases in their numbers, power, and wealth to cause it even more problems in future?

Why is Israel trying to send Lebanon back to the 80's by undoing any progress made over the past few years?

A cynical person would conclude from this affair they actually aim to keep the countries around them unstable and impoverished because they believe they'll never be able to trust Arabs.

Sand wrote:

Hizbollah are a well represented political party in the Lebanese parliment and are using its terroritory - unchallenged - to launch attacks on Israel.

We've already agreed on the fact that Hizbollah is alot more powerful, popular, and influential in Lebanon than the IRA ever was here - right?

The Lebanese govt. is alot weaker relatively than the Irish state.

Taking on Hizbollah vigourously in the way you suggest they should have done would be alot more risky for them than taking on the IRA was for the Irish govt.

I don't see how the hell Israel bombing the **** of of Lebanon's rebuilt infrastructure, *regrettably* (why, if they are just potential bombers and rocket-firers??:( :rolleyes:) killing civilians, wrecking its economy, and generally doing its best to turn the clock back to the 80's is ever going to help, or even just persuade through fear, the Lebanese govt. to come the heavy on Hizbollah.

It's more likely to bring about the end of that govt. and usher in a new Israeli occupation period when the IDF air-war and shelling fails to stop Hizbollah firing rockets across the border and ground troops are sent in to secure the areas they are being launched from.

A case of Goodbye Syria (at least in the form of troops on the ground) and hello Israel for Lebanon?:(

BlackWizard

DublinWriter wrote:

Without the help we got from the International Community, especially the US and Clinton, there'd still be lumps getting blown out of Belfast on a weekly basis.

Clinton and the international community relationship with us is different from the
current situation. Also this situation has progressed far beyond the stage that
Ireland was at.

Also there are... well alot of other differences between the two situations. So they
cant be entirely compared.

johngalway

I can't even express my level of disgust for the "state" of Israel. I wish to seperate that comment from the Jewish people. Any state that deliberately bombs innocent people should have it's leaders put on trial for war crimes. Israel sucks.
John

Lemming

What I find curiously intruiging through all of this is Bush's silence .... it's quite, quite obvious that Israel has something other than the capture of a couple of soldiers in mind as they carry out this rather obscene piece of collective punishment. It must also be glaringly obvious to Washington too. And yet Washington remains silent on the matter. Or at best dis-interested.

But to the original question of the thread. Israel is not right. Neither are the Arab organisations involved. Both are equal in my eyes. Both parties involved (and those among their civilian populace who support them) are beneath reference to the word "scum".

LostinBlanch

This is a link for a lebanese blogs which shows what's happening on the ground.

Beware though, there are some pictures showing civilians killed and the huge damage to buildings (8 - 10 story buildings flattened).

http://urshalim.blogspot.com/

If, as the Lebanese govt are charging, Israel are using phosphorous bombs then it's a war crime, pure and simple. http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/Lebanon/0ECB74B32C97055CC22571AD00526087?OpenDocument

Imagine the reaction if God forbid the Israelis were the recipients of such actions?

A Dub in Glasgo

Israel are a disgrace to humanity. Terrorism pure and simple and dumb & dumber stay silent even though they massacred tens of thousands in the fight against terrorism.

Manic Moran

I am intruigued by Hezbullah's weapons stores. For a crowd that supposedly is not a legitimate armed force (and should have been disarmed by Lebanon per UN resolution, since someone many pages back brought up Israeli non-compliance), they are surprisingly well armed.

The weapon that hit INS Hanit has been apparently identified as a C.802 anti-ship cruise missile. It's a Chinese-made yokie, roughly analagous to the Exocets which gained such fame in the Falklands. The sinking of the Cambodian-registered, Egyptian manned merchant vessel far offshore in the same attack indicates the use of such a system. (If a missile is decoyed away, it continues on until it finds a new target: Same way Atlantic Conveyor was sunk). Looking at pictures of INS Hanit returning to Israel, the missile impacted but did not detonate. Might be why they were able to identify the system.

The Lebanese military is armed by the US, Israel and Syria. C.802s have only been exported to one country: Iran. For a terror group/non-government-militia (Depending on who you ask) to have a number of 6.5 meter long, 3/4 ton missile that no neighboring country (Or the host country) uses is an interesting turn of events.

Two interesting links on another topic:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/07/09/INGIVJQ75J1.DTL is an article from the San Francisco Chronicle on the increasing dis-satisfaction of Arabs with the current Arab leadership and direction.

Also http://lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com/2006/07/breaking-news-flowing.html. A bunch of Lebanese bloggers, and you can also link to other LebBlogs from there.

NTM

New_Departure06

Hezbollah have a right to defend Lebanon from Israeli aggression.