Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah Crisis Thread was the "Is Israel right" thread

fly_agaric

It itches. I can't help replying. Why do I always do that?:(

Sand wrote:

Actually, thats not my position - its the position of international standards in warfare. The GC does not condemn accidental deaths of civillians in military operations, it condemns the deliberate targeting of civillians. Can you point out a war where no civillians died? Its a given that civillians will die in war, and the GC accepts that. All it demands is that armies do not target civillians.

The ironic thing is, the tendency to condemn legitimate armies for even accidental, unintended civillian deaths might lead to the view amongst cynical commanders that "why bother planning to avoid civillian casualties?" since theyll be condemned as "worse than the nazis" anyway.

Afterall, the IDF is condemned far more than Hizbollah is, despite not using human shields to protect itself like Hamas does. If theyre going to be labelled as terrorists, why not tie lebanese civillians to their vehicles? Theyre going to be condemned as terrorists anyway so why not claim the benefits? Why not? Sure, its wrong, and only a monster would do it. But Hizbollah gets zero criticism for using human shields, IDF gets immense criticism for accidental civillian deaths - so what do the IDF lose from the point of view of those who condemn as state sponsored terrorists?

I believe this war is unjustified and wrong so it is academic really. You justify it - indeed you've actually praised it by comparing Israeli actions against their enemy to the failure of Chamberlain et al to act against the Nazis.

The military will always be able to justify a target or explain it away as an accident unless perhaps it is carpet-bombing or deliberately rounding up and killing civilians. Whether people in general accept that or not will depend on the causes of the war and the war's aims. Some people justify carpet-bombing (Dresden, or the fire-bombing and A-bombings in Japan) in certain cases.

If I think this war is utterly wrong (obviously - I do) I'll criticise the country doing the bombing with its inevitable results and attack those, like you, who support that war and justify the death and destruction.

I never said the IDF was "worse than the Nazis" - you dragged them into this initially. I'm only responsible for what I post - that is it.

As for Hizbollah and "human shields" - they are a terrorist org. with local support in Lebanon who operate among the civilian population who often assist them in various ways without a gun being put to their heads...

But then - I guess that makes these civilians a legitimate target eh Sand as per the "rules" (what rules??) of war? They *might* be Hizbollah helpers!

Sand wrote:

Oh, and Israel defending itself from Hizbollah rocket attacks on its towns is "using your military to wreak a country". Jesus...

Israel's military, for whatever reasons is wrecking Lebanon. You can't deny that. Unless you have some other adjustable personal def. of "wrecking" you use for the wars you agree with? Or maybe you'd prefer to call it "changing the facts on the ground" (ha ha).

Sand wrote:

Admirable, but the warped opinions of the Israelis appear to be a stumbling block with regard to expressions of your horror at the continued Hizbollah attacks on Israeli civillians from Lebanon. Civillians who dont deserve the right to life I assume, given you believe Israeli civillians dont have the right to demand their army defend them from those attacking them? 700 rockets fired on Israel in a few days, and Id doubt if in a lenthy thread youve put 700 words condemning Hizbollah into it.

Hmm. Pretty thinly cloaked insults from a person who thinks that the waging of this futile war for Israeli security in the short-term overrides any rights that Lebanese civilians might expect to enjoy in life. Apart perhaps from the "rights" not to be carpet-bombed or rounded up and murdered by the IDF!:)

If you really believe that this war won't adversely affect Arab-Israeli relations for some time to come and make that final peace (vs peace of the cockroaches inherit the earth variety) you say you want (EDIT: as sugested by:
"It needs to evacuate its settlements and withdraw to normal borders. For its own good as much as anything.")
even more impossible than it was before, you are a fool.

As for warped opinions of Israel I think I see the truth. A country that thinks it can do exactly as it pleases because of its strong position. It's not very pretty.

Sand wrote:

No, you wish it was so you could argue along the lines "Sand is X, X is wrong, hence Sand is wrong".

LOL. It was a guess based on alot of supporting evidence in the thread.

banaman

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=10608

So who has mixed military and civilian targets?

Sgt. Sensible

sovtek wrote:

then maybe they should quite illegally detaining people.

Human Rights Watch also challenged Israel's use of the ICCPR's state of emergency clause to excuse instances of arbitrary arrest or detention. Israel has used prolonged administrative detention to hold individuals hostage, as a means of punishing non-violent political expression and activity, and as a substitute for bringing suspects to trial. In March 1998, Israel made public an Israeli Supreme Court decision allowing Israel to continue holding a group of Lebanese citizens as "bargaining chips," even though the Court acknowledged that the detainees were not themselves a threat to state security.

"The state of emergency clause does not allow states to violate international law," said Megally. "Israel's use of administrative detention to hold hostages is a blatant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. International law categorically prohibits hostage-taking in wartime. Neither Israel nor the Committee can condone its use during a state of emergency."

http://hrw.org/english/docs/1998/07/15/isrlpa1214.htm

Has anyone mentioned the IDF's abduction of the Palestinian doctor and his brother on June 24th? It seems to be convenient for people who are blinded by ideology to believe that Hamas and Hezbollah started this whole thing by capturing Israeli soldiers (Corporal Shalit was captured on June 25th) when their actions are just one part of a long chain of events.

Sgt. Sensible

Manic Moran wrote:

Radio is reporting that Israel is creating a 20 mile buffer zone, and telling locals to move out.

I honestly have no idea as to the legality of such a move, but I initially think it's a bit questionable. It certainly seems unsustainable.

NTM

I remember a time when ethnic cleansing type operations were deemed to be the sort of things very very bad people like Serbs engaged in.

redspider

By the way, are any protests planned:

eg: A meeting and speech at the Israeli embassy
A boycott of Israeli goods
Sending letters to the Israeli Embassy (a petition is useless in my opinion). 50,000 letters is much more effective than 50,000 signatures.

oscarBravo wrote:

Done (I'd been meaning to anyway), but the Spell Czech in me had a giggle...

Thnx. As a quid pro quo I've fixed my 'mode' error to Mod and have made some other spelling fixes.

Redspider

banaman

More background and analysis of what the various parties are after

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=10599

banaman

This is an Israeli Human rights organisation article.
Just shows how much craven hypocrisy is being spouted by our "free" media.
http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp

nikolaitr

I've been watching the recent Israeli-Lebanese conflict and thinking to myself, How in hell can Israel get away with bombing civilians,refugee camps and even killing UN employees in bombings?

Just last week I read in Newsweek that 300 civilians have been killed,I would imagine this has gone up to 1000 by now. I mean how does all this differ from Serbia. Why doesn't the UN step in, thy are a complete joke if they don't do anything.

I obviously don't expect the US to stop Israel, considering they have supplied the Israeli army with 10's of Billions of Military Aid. But the UN???

banaman

No one in Beirut believes that Israel's primary objective is to free its captured soldiers. Israel still holds Lebanese prisoners it abducted years ago, and could have negotiated an exchange, as it has done in the past. Indeed, Israel initiated hostage-taking in Lebanon, kidnapping noncombatant Hezbollah leaders in 1989 and 1994. As recently as 2004, Israel and Hezbollah reached an agreement, brokered by Germany, for the exchange of prisoners and the remains of fallen soldiers.

From
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0720-26.htm

This ones a bit of a rant but the history is interesting, He doesnt mention that Israel set up Hamas itself.
http://www.counterpunch.com/

fly_agaric

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

I remember a time when ethnic cleansing type operations were deemed to be the sort of things very very bad people like Serbs engaged in.

But the Serbs didn't do it for "Israel's security".

They'll have to come up with a new and improved name for it in the press-conferences if they do it.
Personally, even "Buffer Zone" reminds me of Uncle Joe.

Manic Moran

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Try this one then, soldiers from a neighbouring country surround San Jose and tell the locals to get out, is the legality still vague?

Well, it fails for starters because nobody in San Jose has gone around lobbing rockets at another country.

However, I've done a little browsing, and it seems that per Protocol 2 of Geneva Coventions, Art 17-1, there are cases when the displacement of the civilian population can be ordered. They can't physically boot them out by marching in and putting them in trucks, but they can order it in the interests of preserving life. "Lads, things are about to get very messy here, I recommend you leave if you want to live." If the locals don't want to move, there's nothing that the attacking power can do about it.

It seems that the offensive into that buffer zone hasn't actuallty started. I'm wondering if the announcement's a positional ploy to get the RoW to hurry up and step in.

NTM

uberpixie

They also shoot peace activists and clearly marked red cross workers.

The steal land and hae the cheek to call it "disputed territory"!

The bulldoze homes with Palestinains still inside.

They ethnically cleansed 700,000 Arabs in 1948: when the Arabs came back after the war they were told they could not get their land and homes back because they ran away!

They once ran over an old man who was in a wheel chair with a tank.

The won't Arabs who still live in Israel become full citizens, even if they marry a Jew. (Arabs = 20% of pop in Isreal)

They torture prisoners.

They hold over 1000 Palestinans wihtout charge or trial.

They beat and shoot unarmed children.

They have denied injuried Arabs treatment which led to their death.

And a whole lot more.....

But yes obviously they are all wonderfull people and are totally right and the Arabs are all evil and wrong.........

sovtek

Sand wrote:

Well, the obvious answer might be that Hizbollah wants to drive the Israelis back into the sea...

Maybe Israel can negotiate good terms for their utter destruction?

There's a fair few Knesset members (nevermind the crap that rolls out of the mouths of IDF soldiers) who've wanted to drive the Arabs the other direction since Israel's inception.

Because in international politics, right=might

sovtek

Manic Moran wrote:

Well, it fails for starters because nobody in San Jose has gone around lobbing rockets at another country.

Really? Ummmm I guess you've never heard of Iraq...for starters.

kona

this may sound a bit sick but i am looking at this and to me the jews aint much better in their actions than the nazis, makes hitlers motives make a little bit of sense

jessop1

its not antisemetic to speak out against the actions of the terror regime which controls Israel, with support from the terror regimes that control britain and america.

http://fromisraeltolebanon.info/

kona

kona wrote:

this may sound a bit sick but i am looking at this and to me the jews aint much better in their actions than the nazis, makes hitlers motives make a little bit of sense

Elaborate plz.......

Benedict XVI

uberpixie wrote:

They also shoot peace activists and clearly marked red cross workers.

The steal land and hae the cheek to call it "disputed territory"!

The bulldoze homes with Palestinains still inside.

They ethnically cleansed 700,000 Arabs in 1948: when the Arabs came back after the war they were told they could not get their land and homes back because they ran away!

They once ran over an old man who was in a wheel chair with a tank.

The won't Arabs who still live in Israel become full citizens, even if they marry a Jew. (Arabs = 20% of pop in Isreal)

They torture prisoners.

They hold over 1000 Palestinans wihtout charge or trial.

They beat and shoot unarmed children.

They have denied injuried Arabs treatment which led to their death.

And a whole lot more.....

But yes obviously they are all wonderfull people and are totally right and the Arabs are all evil and wrong.........

Any chance of a few links to support the above ?

Morlar

Benedict XVI wrote:

Any chance of a few links to support the above ?

Here is one:

http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/(Symbol)/CAT.C.SR.339.En?Opendocument

another
http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=mideast&c=isrlpa

Also

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2001/06/23/isrlpa97.htm

Google is everybodys friend.

JustSomeone

Collective punishment is the Israeli government's tactic of choice. They've done this for years. Some of us have been shouting against it for years. I can normally see and argue bth sides of any question, but not this one. There can be no justification for what Israel gets up to.

In 1989, China got a lot of international condemnation for the way it treated its citizens during the protests in Tiananmen Square. There is a very famous photo (http://www.chinasupport.net/tanks.gif) from this time, which I'm sure you've seen, of a column of Chinese tanks in front of a lone unarmed protester, who stepped from side to side to stay in front of the tanks while they tried to get past him. Lucky for him, it wasn't the IDF who were driving those tanks. He could well have ended up facing the same cruel fate that Rachel Corrie and others have ended up with when they tried to peacefully oppose the IDF.

Speaking of tanks, when Iraqi tanks rolled into Kuwait, the ensuing Gulf War pushed them back behind their borders. When Israel rolls its military forces beyond its borders, the UN comdemns them (once the resolution is sufficiently watered down for the US to hold back on its Veto).

No other country treats the Geneva Convention, the international community, its neighbours and even elements of its own population with such utter contempt. And yet, nothing is done about it.

If you really are fed up with the actions of the Israeli government, and the faillure of the international community to impose any sanctions on Israel, take your voice to the streets. If you're in Dublin, join in at the Garden of Remembrance at 12 on Saturday.

sovtek

kona wrote:

this may sound a bit sick but i am looking at this and to me the jews aint much better in their actions than the nazis, makes hitlers motives make a little bit of sense

Sorry but I wouldn't think that I would have to point out that Jews and Israelis are not one in the same.
Even then there's people that make up orgs like B'Tselem who are Israelis themselves. They are just one group of Israelis that don't support and resist their government's actions. Even IDF soldiers have protested and refused to serve.

Squaddy

uberpixie wrote:

They hold over 1000 Palestinans wihtout charge or trial.

9000 to be correct.

Israel and the media sicken me. They say Hezbollah started all this. And yet they have Arab prisoners in their jails, Israel arent denying this. WHat about the Arab woman and her children that where blown to pieces by the Israelis a month ago while playing on a beach

Zulu

kona wrote:

this may sound a bit sick but i am looking at this and to me the jews aint much better in their actions than the nazis, makes hitlers motives make a little bit of sense

Bear in mind that in order to make a reasonable and educated judgment you need to research BOTH SIDES of the story.

JustSomeone

redspider wrote:

By the way, are any protests planned:

eg: A meeting and speech at the Israeli embassy
A boycott of Israeli goods
Sending letters to the Israeli Embassy (a petition is useless in my opinion). 50,000 letters is much more effective than 50,000 signatures.

Saturday the 22nd: 12.00
Garden of Remembrance, Dublin.

Two minutes silence for the dead, with members of the Lebanese and
Palestinian community in Ireland and families of Irish soldiers killed
during the UNIFIL mission.

Saturday the 22nd: 1400

Protest called by Socialist Youth at the Central Bank on Dame St.

I believe that other protests are being held country/world wide

Amnesty has sample protest letters and contact details at:
http://www.amnesty.ie/user/content/view/full/6125/

Trocaire has some at:
http://trocaire.ie/newsandinformation/palestine/metakeaction.htm

Online petition at:
http://julywar.epetitions.net


Apart from these notices, has anyone else been wondering why the lifting of the two IDF soldiers is frequently being trotted out as justification for, well anything Israel decides it wants to do, while the hundreds of people held without trial in Israeli institutions (recently joined by 8 palestinian ministers and 20 MP's) is hardly mentioned?

zuma

sovtek wrote:

Sorry but I wouldn't think that I would have to point out that Jews and Israelis are not one in the same.

Take a read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

and here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F#Israeli_rules_for_aliyah_creates_Israelis_but_not_Jews

sovtek

zuma wrote:

Take a read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

I'm well aware of Israel's policy regarding citizenship and whatnot...what's your point?

Hobbes

Manic Moran wrote:

but they can order it in the interests of preserving life. "Lads, things are about to get very messy here, I recommend you leave if you want to live." If the locals don't want to move, there's nothing that the attacking power can do about it.

The irony here is that Israel told the people get out of Beruit after blowing away the major roads/bridges out of the city.

Heck even the UK had to go cap in hand to Israel to be allowed to pick up refugees with thier war ship.

TBH here is what I think this senario is all about.

1. Come around October Bush will outline some kind of peace plan which Israel will fall in line with until after the House elections in November (which he think he will win).

2. At that point (if it hasn't already happened) the escaltion will restart to the point where they will try and bring Syria or Iran into the fight. My guess is some kind of attack on Israel which will be broadcast 24x7 on the media channels to say "OMGZ! Those evil terrorists" while Israels actions to date will be totally ignored.

3. Once that Happens Bush has his excuse to go to war with country X. Of course as a land war the US is screwed (would require a draft or another serious coalition of the willing) so most likely some kind of bombing into submission.

It might be unfair tying the US up in this mess but the truth of it is that the US gives Israel an insane amount of money both in its budget and military budget. Thats also not factoring in the tax exemption plans the US has for people to transfer money to Israel.

If they wanted they could stop it in a heartbeat.

Israel has shown it can hit a target it wants to hit so all this bombing of cities is clear provocation.

TBH I am surprised there isn't sanctions imposed on Israel for thier actions.

nikolaitr

I think what he's pointing out is that Israel is to Jews what The Vatican is to Catholics...OK its not exact but they are very similiar comparisons

Regarding anti-semitism in all this, I remember hearing a quote relating to criticising Israeli actions

"Being anti-semitic used to describe someone who didn't like Jews, now it describes someone who the Jews don't like"

Benedict XVI

uberpixie wrote:

They also shoot peace activists and clearly marked red cross workers.

The steal land and hae the cheek to call it "disputed territory"!

The bulldoze homes with Palestinains still inside.

They ethnically cleansed 700,000 Arabs in 1948: when the Arabs came back after the war they were told they could not get their land and homes back because they ran away!

They once ran over an old man who was in a wheel chair with a tank.

The won't Arabs who still live in Israel become full citizens, even if they marry a Jew. (Arabs = 20% of pop in Isreal)

They torture prisoners.

They hold over 1000 Palestinans wihtout charge or trial.

They beat and shoot unarmed children.

They have denied injuried Arabs treatment which led to their death.

And a whole lot more.....

But yes obviously they are all wonderfull people and are totally right and the Arabs are all evil and wrong.........

So the hell what if all the above happened,

I know I will take loads of flack for this but it is my opinion and I stand by it.

For all it’s existence Israel has and to fight against Arabs (with the exclusion of Egypt and Jordan since their peace deals) that have no other object in life only to see Israel wiped off the map, as a result Israel has to defend it’s self, and if that defense of their state involved the death of civilians so what ?

The simple solution to this is for all the Arabs to stop trying to destroy Israel, let them live in peace and then Israel will stop retaliating against attacks on its people and forces.

Until that happens many more Arabs will die and it will be no ones fault but their own.