Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah Crisis Thread was the "Is Israel right" thread

sovtek

nikolaitr wrote:

I think what he's pointing out is that Israel is to Jews what The Vatican is to Catholics...OK its not exact but they are very similiar comparisons

Regarding anti-semitism in all this, I remember hearing a quote relating to criticising Israeli actions

"Being anti-semitic used to describe someone who didn't like Jews, now it describes someone who the Jews don't like"

The Vatican is where the head of the Catholic church resides. Israel is a country and supposed Jewish homeland. As far as I understand the religion there is no King Jew in Israel that dictates jewish law upon synogogues throughout the world.
Furthermore there are many millions of Jews who hold no sympathy with the Israeli state nor for it's affinity for military action and occupation of Palestinian land. There are many Jews who do not identify with Israel as their homeland nor believe in the tenants of Judiasm.
So I might be pedantic here...but to say that the Jews, collectively, are being worse than the Nazis (and I would say that the Israeli government/military isn't even quite that bad) is incorrect.

Benedict XVI

nikolaitr wrote:

Plenty have...just look in the Balkans...Pakistan and India

Balkans - I don't see Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Albania, Serbia at each others throat, no suicide bombers walking on to busses in these places, no rockets coming from over the border.

Pakistan - India - Tension in the north alright but not the same a Arab countries (Ex Egypt, Jordan) v Israel

joebhoy1916

Morlar wrote:

I am starting to think they would have the moral right - but they would be risking a nuclear attack from israel (I know that sounds wacky but I honestly believe they would do it). Plus america would side with israel no matter what.

But then they would be at risk of a chemical attack from the likes of Syria! I dont like Israel but I wouldn't say they would use nuclear weapons but then again you never know! I would love to see there neighbours stand up for them because no one else will. Also seen there on the news the Lebannese army said they would fight the Israeli army when there enter Lebanon so it wont be just Hezbollah they will be fighting..

Benedict XVI

nikolaitr wrote:

Well i wouldn't be surprised if the Israeli attack was an attempt to get Iran involved and give America a reason to attack Iran, destroying Israel's strongest enemy.

Would not be a bad idea, the world would be a much safer place if the current regieme in Iran was out of the picture

sovtek

Benedict XVI wrote:

Because no other country has been under thread of destruction from it's neighbours on all sides since the day of it very coming into existence 58 years ago.

Actually it's never been under threat of destruction. It has, however, since it's inception ethnically cleansed and attacked its neighbors consistantly.

joebhoy1916

Benedict XVI wrote:

Would not be a bad idea, the world would be a much safer place if the current regieme in Iran was out of the picture

LMFBO yeah I seen on the news the other day a guy from America was saying there was a rising a few months back all of them students they were saying they should attack them and kick the current goverment out and put in the students wow what a great idea!

America wouldnt have the man power to attack Iran!

sovtek

Benedict XVI wrote:

Would not be a bad idea, the world would be a much safer place if the current regieme in Iran was out of the picture

Many more believe that the world would be a safer place with Bush, Blair and Olmert out of the picture.

nikolaitr

Regarding the Balkans....you obviously have no knowledge what goes on there. Yes it doesn't make the headlines what goes on there but thats becasue what goes on there now is the result of the NATO supported war. There are still massacres, kidknappings and white slaves


The world would be safer if Iran was out of the picture???
What has Iran done recently? It hasn't attacked its neighbours, it hasn't bombed refugee camps? America is complaining it is building WMD's...yeat Israel has had them "secretly" for a long time, and when did America complain.

Benedict XVI

nikolaitr wrote:

Regarding the Balkans....you obviously have no knowledge what goes on there. Yes it doesn't make the headlines what goes on there but thats becasue what goes on there now is the result of the NATO supported war. There are still massacres, kidknappings and white slaves.

Any links ?

sovtek wrote:

Actually it's never been under threat of destruction. It has, however, since it's inception ethnically cleansed and attacked its neighbors consistantly.

From it's inception in May '48, Israel was immediatly attcked by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan.
Israel beat them back.

In June '67 Egypt, Syria and Jordan were ready to invade but Isreal beat them to it and they were on their knees in 6 days.

Links from Wikipedia = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_israel

If that is not the threat of destruction, what is ?

Any similarities in the Balkans ?

Benedict XVI

sovtek wrote:

Many more believe that the world would be a safer place with Bush, Blair and Olmert out of the picture.

I don't agree, I will though when I hear any of them say that a neighbouring, democratic country should be wiped of the map as the Iranian leader recently did in regards to Israel

Dirk Gently

Benedict XVI wrote:

I don't agree, I will though when I hear any of them say that a neighbouring, democratic country should be wiped of the map as the Iranian leader recently did in regards to Israel

Was that not a deliberate mis-translation by the western media of what the Iranian leader said in that speech?

Was it not proved that what he was talking about was regime change in Israel and America before they could negotiate as the current regimes in America and Israel are too extreme to negotiate with? There was never any mention of the phrase "wiped off the map". As for the U.S. or Israel threatening to wipe a country off the map I doubt you would ever hear them say such a thing but that doesn't mean they don’t practice it, it just means they market their aggression better with promises of freedom and reconstruction.

nikolaitr

I found a link about the Balkans...two in fact!

http://serbo.blogspot.com/

http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/kosovo_junger.htm


But lets keep this debate on Israel, Serbia needs its own thread.

The Irish population hve a very distroted view of the Serbian War, so lets not get too far into it.

Slainte70

kona wrote:

what i mean by jews is israel, lets face it the muppets orchastrating this are jews, to be a israeli citizen you HAVE to be jewish.so that would mean you have to be jewish to serve in the armed forces.
i know its bad but its a bit rich the israelis going on about the holocaust so much when what they are doing to lebanon isnt much better than the nazis, they make me sick, id hope to god the yanks just say **** it and side with the arabs on this, hell it may even solve their 'war on terror'.

Sorry to burst your bubble Kona, but I am an Israeli citizen and I am not jewish!

As for having to be jewish to serve in the IDF, sorry to burst your buuble again, but the Druze community and the Beduoin community also serve in the IDF and they are not jewish.

Manic Moran

As for having to be jewish to serve in the IDF, sorry to burst your buuble again, but the Druze community and the Beduoin community also serve in the IDF and they are not jewish.

Back in 1982, an Israeli tank pulled up to an Irish UN checkpoint.. the loader hollered at them in a Belfast accent: "Have you any idea how Northern Ireland are doing in the World Cup? It's hard for me to keep up to date right now.."

Apparently he had married an Israeli girl, moved from Northern Ireland to Israel, and got conscripted to do his time just in time for Peace for Galillee.

NTM

JustSomeone

Flukey wrote:

They are at it again today, dropping notes to tell people to get out, when their actions in taking out Lebanese infrastructure has made that almost impossible.

Not to mention that they'e already shot down a convoy of people who were trying to evacuate.

Morlar

I wonder if one of the people from your anecdote there could also have been involved in this one here:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DEFDC143BF931A25752C0A961948260&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fOrganizations%2fU%2fUnited%20Nations%20

Slainte70

Squaddy wrote:

I completely agree.

If you look at Israel they have all high rised developed Buildings with a developed economy, developed roads etc, and then when you look at Lebannon, Gaza etc. They live in tin houses, mud houses etc, poor roads, and the rest of the world is on Israels side, i would be pissed off too.

I guess it doesn't help much when good auld Mrs. Suwa Arafat has stashed away billions of international aid money for the Palestinians either. But hey, it's easy to blame it all on the Israelis eh?

Suha Arafat, her daughter Zahwa and her mother, Raymonda Tawil, divide their time between two luxurious Paris residences. One is the entire floor at the city's luxury Bristol Hotel. The concierge indicates that at the Bristol a suite and 19 rooms go for $16,000 a night; the other residence is a nearby series of apartments in the fashionable Neuilly quarter. A third residence is in the French countryside.

Up to her husband's death, Suha Arafat is said to have been living on $100,000 a month from Palestinian Authority coffers. CBS correspondent Lesley Stahl in "60 Minutes", an American news show, investigated Arafat's financial situation, and discovered as well that Suha Arafat's mother, Raymonda Tawil, is also living lavishly - apparently off international largesse and the Palestinian taxpayers.

Palestinian President Yasser Arafat held accounts of Fatah and the PLO containing an amount estimated between $300 million and $11 billion.

joebhoy1916

Oh jesus I really find that hard to believe! As if she would have that much sure Hamas would never allow that while they hardly have money to setup schools! Put up the link no doubt American more than likely!

Opps yeah CBS!

I wonder if Mahmoud Abbas's wife is leading the same life!

Slainte70

Joebhoy, I'm kind of surprised that you did not hear about this until now...good auld Suwa would not let Abu Alla, Abu Masen and other top Palestinians visit him on his deathbed until they signed an agreement letting her have a large stash of Palestinian funds. Ask any Palestinian what they think of good auld Suwa...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suha_Arafat

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/8/105706.shtml

Here's another link if you would prefer...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1350263,00.html

fly_agaric

joebhoy1916 wrote:

Oh jesus I really find that hard to believe!

There was massive corruption in Arafat's PA. He didn't enrich himself at the EU/US/Japanese moneytrough personally AFAIK but doled out money as a sort of patron.

joebhoy1916

I know abit about it I know the the PLO and that never liked her she only married for money etc..

But how would she be getting the money! He is dead years!

Wasn't there a one off payment that she got?

Slainte70

fly_agaric wrote:

There was massive corruption in Arafat's PA. He didn't enrich himself at the EU/US/Japanese moneytrough personally AFAIK but doled out money as a sort of patron.

Oh yeah...he doled out international aid money alright... to suicide bombers and their ilk..

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31479

Dirk Gently

Looks like the ground invasion is going to happen at some stage later tonight according to sky news. Lebanon has already said that if there is an Israeli ground invasion that they will deploy their army to defend their boarders so it looks like this is heading towards a full blown land war as opposed to bombings and small incursions. The thing that really sickens me is how the Americans are purposely dragging their feet in responding to the U.N. It seems obvious that Israel got the green light from America before this all kicked off and America are making damn sure that the IDF get the 2 weeks they said they needed to complete the operation. If Lebanon does as it says and sends its army to intercept any mass Israeli invasion I cant see that two week window that the Israelis conveniently worked out with the Americans been kept.

How long will Syria stay out of it if they see the Lebanon army get slaughtered next door? What is the U.N. going to do about it? In fairness it was a really strong statement from Kofi Annan but as usual it will amount to nothing as long as America blocks any movement from the international community. What must the Arab world be thinking of the West and the wider world community as we stand by and do nothing except evacuate our own citizens.? This is looking more and more like an attempt to inflame the region into continuous war. I think its time for the U.N. to grow a set of balls and by-pass the Americans and send in an international force to hold the Israelis back and give Lebanon all the assistance it needs to recover and also to assist their state forces so they can police the south of the country themselves so as not to give the Israelis an excuse to attack again. This business of having America dictate the international response to conflicts must end if there is ever to be a balanced and democratic U.N. I think Israel has more than made its point and its time to stop the bombings which are clearly and indiscriminately terrorising and killing innocent civilians, not to mention giving Hezbollah a major recruitment bonanza.

In fairness I think Israel would welcome an international force in south Lebanon but it looks like they want to completely destroy the country before they leave. If they don't stop short of engaging the Lebanon army then the violence will probably be too out of control for a peace enforcement force to deploy and it will be only a matter of time before other countries become involved. I bet the Americans are praying for Iran or Syria to run to the defence of Lebanon so they have an excuse to go to war with them with Israeli military overtly joining the British / American coalition.

tallus

Slainte70 wrote:

Oh yeah...he doled out international aid money alright... to suicide bombers and their ilk..

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31479

well you hardly expected him to give it to Israeli terrorists did you?
www.fromisraeltolebanon.info

JustSomeone

tallus wrote:

www.fromisraeltolebanon.info

That's an amazing site...

Manic Moran

On a lighter note, Omar Bakri Mohammed, the radical cleric deported from the UK last year for inciting hatred, tried to get onto a Royal Navy warship to escape from Lebanon.

The British said 'No'

NTM

spanner

Manic Moran wrote:

On a lighter note, Omar Bakri Mohammed, the radical cleric deported from the UK last year for inciting hatred, tried to get onto a Royal Navy warship to escape from Lebanon.

The British said 'No'

NTM

and a whole load of invadels down the road to take on! I think it is a case of do as I say but not as I do

spanner

many people have given their point of view on this matter (29 pages!!!) so I will through in mine.
If the international community does not step in now It will become a much bigger problem later on costing much more to fix.

the solution is not rocket science, Israel ceasfire, Hezbollah hand back the Israeli soldiers and a international force patrols the southern border buffer zone. Yes you might say this is an impossible thing to ask but if the international community puts pressure on both sides they can reach an agreement.
The Israelis have got to realise that this is not going to be a simple straight forward war which they have fought before, Hezbollah has had time to dig in, equip and they are much more stronger than fata or hamas. The more they pound Lebanon, the more they make Hezbollah stronger

nuttz

How could Israel be right? They are now the bullies of that region.
I am catholic and looking at history and world war two, I should be on the side of Israel, but I feel that the cause of this conflict lies solely on the side of the Israel.
I really think sanctions should be taken against the Israel state by the EU. Ethnic cleansing occurred against the people of that state, but that is similar to their current attack on their neighbouring states. Israel have no excuse, they have the backing of the US, that is not propaganda, that is fact, and that is why the conflict still exists there.

How many Irish soldiers served in Lebanon just for the Israelies to f*ck it all up?

I am just pissed off with Israel for throwing away an oppertunity to join Europe and cop on, but it seems some things never change...

Manic Moran

nuttz wrote:

How many Irish soldiers served in Lebanon just for the Israelies to f*ck it all up?

You mean the Israelis and the Arabs.

Here's a report on the scene from a Canadian UNIFIL observer.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060718/mideast_lebanon_UN_060716/20060718/

According to him, he witness a Hezbullah attempt to kidnap Israeli troops back in 2005. Perhaps it was just a matter of time before all this kicked off.

Also on a lighter note, it seems that Canadians are complaining about the quality of transport that the Canadian government has provided them to get out of Lebanon. They had to rest on the -floor- (Gasp, horror). They're being evacuated from a war zone, what do they expect, a 5-star cruise liner?

NTM