Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah Crisis Thread was the "Is Israel right" thread

DOLEMAN

DOLEMAN wrote:

You assume a lot.

My opinions are based on your lack of understanding in your postings.

What age are you?

Could you possibly try and keep the personal stuff out of your posts? You have spent far more time analysing me than you have the Middle East. If you have personal comments, PM me.

Gordon

bonkey wrote:

CNN alleged last night that the Israeli PM stated he didn't want anyone in Ghaza sleeping until this was resolved. Lets just clarify that - if this is correct, the Israeli PM has effectively stated that he wants psy-ops carried out against the civilian population.

They've been utilising sonic booms from aircraft for some time now, this has stepped up in frequency after the soldier was kidnapped. Sonic booms aren't that bad usually but the Israelis fly quite low as far as I understand, and such low sonic booms shatter windows and can cause heart problems and even miscarriages.

I think the Israelis are acting appallingly, especially considering their previous bombing of innocent civilians on a beach. They know fine well that they are laying the ground for extreme suffering and death of innocent Palestinians. That's totally unacceptable and I think the international community should impose sanctions on Israel for gross human rights violations.

bonkey

Frederico wrote:

If the Israeli's capture a palestinian soldier, then the palestinians are justified in killing innocent civilians to force Israeli to hand him back.. the realities of war right?

And what, then, if it wasn't a soldier that the Israeli's had captured, but rather some land....

Jimboo_Jones

Deleted User wrote:

If they carpet bombed the place tomorrow, so be it. I would feel sorry for the civilians who suffer, but you elect terrorists who place preconditions on the release of a kidnap victim and you pay the consequences.

hummm so the 10's of 1'000 of people who didnt vote for hamas, or the 1'000's who are too young to vote, well they deserve to die?

Or what about when Isreal voted Yitzhak Shamir, a former Jewish terrorist as their PM, should they have all been carpet bombed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shamir

yomchi

Deleted User wrote:

I think Israel is right. And so far, on this particular matter, they have shown some restraint. If there is no real attempt to find and hand back the soldier, they should escalate military action.

I think your uneducated

Jon

Jon wrote:

your uneducated

I presume you're being deliberately obtuse. Good one.

But as with DOLEMAN and clown bag, this thread will be shut down if it's just used for personal comments.

New_Departure06

I blame Israel. Imagine if in response to the Provos kidnapping a British soldier, Britain ordered air-strikes on Derry/West Belfast/Dublin/Cork? The reaction would rightly be outrage on our part and likely worldwide. Therefore the Israelis have no right to carry out this appalling collective punishment. They have bombed civilian infrastructure and this will further radicalise the Palestinian population. It is more likely now that the kidnappers will kill him as revenge. This is so self-defeating.

Israel's is to blame ultimately for its illegal occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, its relentless colonisation therein, and the expulsion of Arab families from their homes. They ethnically-cleansed 770,000 Arabs in 1948 - something that the Israeli Establishment continue to refuse to acknowledge. After the withdrawl from Gaza, they continued - even in ceasefire - to bomb Gazan streets supposedly to kill "terrorists". It's almost as if they were trying to provoke Hamas and the other militants back into a tit-for-tat situation.

Israel is a serious threat to world peace. Economic sanctions now to pressure them into getting their imperialist hands off of the Palestinian territories, or else a consumer boycott.

New_Departure06

New_Departure06 wrote:

I blame Israel. Imagine if in response to the Provos kidnapping a British soldier, Britain ordered air-strikes on Derry/West Belfast/Dublin/Cork? The reaction would rightly be outrage on our part and likely worldwide.

True.

But on the other hand, what if the Irish government said the British soldier would not be handed back until they released every Irish man in English jails?

Dirk Gently

Deleted User wrote:

True.

But on the other hand, what if the Irish government said the British soldier would not be handed back until they released every Irish man in English jails?

*oh yes conor, now I see your point. Of course in that situation it would be acceptable for British war planes to carpet bomb Irish cities, killing thousands of evil civilians. I see your logic now. My mistake. You’re absolutely right. I'm sure them evil Palestinians deserve everything they get. Bomb them all to hell.

















*sarcasm

LegacyUser

Hey guys

Just a quick note....This is a forum to debate and argue ones own PERSONAL points of view and I really think everybody should respect each others.It kinda irritates me when these sorts of discussions decend into slagging matches.Everybody who argues my point of view ,I give thier opinion the respect it deserves regardless of if Im for thier point or against.

Im not someone who is ignorant of other religions and Im not just using this thread to attack Islam.But one thing I am and that is honest about my views and opinions. It drives me nuts when Pinko Libreals feel the need keep up the non-stop bashing of U.S foregin Policy and anything else the U.S does for that matter.It wasnt too long ago I remember looking at the cover of Time Magizine and The U.S was being described as the Worlds Policeman....now idea makes me feel alot better.Totake a very very simplistic view of the matter you could almost compare the U.S and Isreal to our own Justice Minister McDowell.He's got the right ideas and only has the nations best intrests at heart but could really do with doing a few classes in P.R

Every nation has its own national intrests as its primiary concern...so as far as Isreal is concerned the defence of her people being it!!!

Here is another thing.People say how bad things are for the People of Gaza.I heard one reporter describe it as nothing more than a rubbish tip.OK...so its gonna need money to try and get itself on its feet. People seem to think that Gaza is poor because of Isreal...but this isnt true.I think they should have asked Arafat how he managed to build up hundreds of millions of dollars in French bank a/cs. Im not going to go into it now but anyone who read Rudi Giulianis book will tell you of a story involving Arafat trying to hand over a cheque at a benifit function for 9/11 victims and why Giuliani had the man thrown out!!

I totally accept that Isreal is a country that sanctions state sponsered asasinations,goes in very very hard,uses torture to get information.....but put yourself into the shoes of a Hamas or Islamic Jihad terrorist in Gaza right now and try telling me you wouldnt be crappin in your pants right now...because everybody knows if you put your head in the Lions mouth your gonna lose it!!

Dirk Gently

kaiser1 wrote:

Every nation has its own national intrests as its primiary concern...so as far as Isreal is concerned the defence of her people being it!!!

Is the Israeli state really protecting its people by terrorising the Palestinian people? If I was an Israeli citizen I would be well pissed off with my governments actions as they put me in danger from revenge attacks. I think Isreal is putting a lot of faith in that big wall they built around their boarder and are using it as an excuse to provoke the Palestinians in the hope that they wont be able to breach their security at the wall.

kaiser1 wrote:

Im not someone who is ignorant of other religions and Im not just using this thread to attack Islam.

I'll say nothing about that. Maybe re read your own posts. By the way your civilised role models in America are best mates with Saudi Arabia.

Also, you don't have to be a Pinko Liberal to point out the brutality and terror tactics Israel is using, unless of course anyone who doesn't agree with state terrorism is a Pinko Liberal.

clown bag

clown bag wrote:

*oh yes conor, now I see your point. Of course in that situation it would be acceptable for British war planes to carpet bomb Irish cities, killing thousands of evil civilians. I see your logic now. My mistake. You’re absolutely right. I'm sure them evil Palestinians deserve everything they get. Bomb them all to hell.


*sarcasm

Not quite my point really.

Agree with much of the points kaiser1 makes, though dunno if I'd have thrown in McDowell and 'pinko liberals'...

BlackWizard

fly_agaric wrote:

Are you saying that people have always done it so its okay?

Who says we shouldn't try to curb this destructive aspect of human nature?

Im not saying what should be done. Because no one can say what 'should' be done.
They can only say what they want to be done. Often fueled by economic factors these
days

And some people might believe that humans will be humans. So its only natural to
let them sort out their own problems. Often in this day and age it will results in
some deaths.

I actually havent read any other posts bar the page I posted on so Im sorry
for barging in like this. Just wanted to reply. :-)

New_Departure06

Every nation has its own national intrests as its primiary concern...so as far as Isreal is concerned the defence of her people being it!!!

Israel's interests are harmed by this relentless expansionism and bombings. It acts as a recruiting sergeant for Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. Also there is a responsibility to accept the Palestinian electorate's decision. The British refused to accept the Irish decision in 1918 and were thrown out. Israel also deserves to be thrown out. It has a "chosen-people" mentality which in its eyes puts it above criticism. So it isn't just Islamic militants who are using religion to justify killing people. Many thousands more Palestinians have died from this conflict than Israelis. The reaction of Israel amounts to collective punishment of an entire population e.g. bombing power-stations, and it rightly has earned the loathing of the vast majority of nations on earth. It has earned this by its relentless imperialism and colonialism.

The US supports Israel because of the Christian extremists in the electorate and political and media domain and their crazy ideas about the state of Israel needing to control all of the occupied territories in order for the "Second Coming" to happen, and because of pro-Israel pressure groups which bankroll many election candidates in the primaries. For many in the US Congress, support for Israel owes less to principle and more to money. The lunatics have taken over the asylum regarding the US foreign-policy on Israel, imho.

New_Departure06

New_Departure06 wrote:

it rightly has earned the loathing of the vast majority of nations on earth.

Has it?

Would have thought most nations, while critical publicly or privately of certain Israeli actions, generally support the right of the Jewish people to live in that area free of the fear of attack from terrorists and to govern themselves. Apart from countries led by Muslim fundamentalists, like Iran, would have thought Israel have a pretty good standing in the world. How many countries have a diplomatic corps in Israel?

New_Departure06

Deleted User wrote:

Has it?

Would have thought most nations, while critical publicly or privately of certain Israeli actions, generally support the right of the Jewish people to live in that area free of the fear of attack from terrorists and to govern themselves. Apart from countries led by Muslim fundamentalists, like Iran, would have thought Israel have a pretty good standing in the world. How many countries have a diplomatic corps in Israel?

Loathing a country is not the same as questioning its right to exist (something I am not doing). I loathe it because of its cruel oppression of the Palestinians. When it cleans up its act I will like it.

Frederico

bonkey wrote:

And what, then, if it wasn't a soldier that the Israeli's had captured, but rather some land....

What are you talking about?

Why do people have such respect for so called "strength".. its easy to march and army in and start terrorising people.. thats simple..?? much harder to use diplomacy and try to move forward. Its not a strength its a weakness. The Israelis need to use new tactics, cos right now they are just recruiting alot of suicide bombers.

banaman

I really don't have either the time or the inclination to argue with you point by point. However there are certain points I would like to make:-
1) if you forcibly eject,discriminate against and vilify the people around you they will NOT just say oh well and let it lie. See history of Ireland.
2) in order to be valid under your criteria Israel's actions should be making the region safer for Israelis. Please explain, with historical details, how any of Israel's actions since the wars that gianed it the OCCUPIED territories have made the region safer for Israelis.
3) I absolutely believe that the targetting or callous disregard for civilian casualties is a criminal act no matter what justification is given for such action.
In this I exclude no country or group. Thus the actions of the allies(actually the British) in atrocities such as Dresden, the American bombing of Hiroshima & Nagasaki, the actions of military forces in Ulster & Vietnam, the early bombing campaigns of the IRA, ALL paramilitary activities, suicide bombings in Palestine, Iraq & Afghanistan, police actions such as the disappearings in Latin America,, etc,etc, etc are ALL atrocities and it is precisely because we selectively justify one, or more, that we create the mindset that targetting civilians is an acceptable tactic in warfare.
4) I suggest you surf some of the alternative news websites where you will find an interesting critique of foreign policy objectives.
For instance:-
http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/
http://www.fpif.org/
http://www.counterpunch.com/
http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

Alternatively search through the following for sites you like:-
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/trt/
http://www.mathaba.net/www/news/
I do not seek to demean your viewpoint, nor will I ever argue that because it is different to mine you should not hold it. I resent being called a "pinko-liberal". Such cheap name-calling adds nothing to the debate. Actually the term you use is an oxy-moron since by definition one cannot be a pinko(ie communist sympathiser) and a liberal. They are two very distinct and mutually exclusive political philosophies.

fly_agaric

BlackWizard wrote:

Im not saying what should be done. Because no one can say what 'should' be done.
They can only say what they want to be done. Often fueled by economic factors these
days

OFFTOPIC:
I believe there is an objective right and wrong in these kind of situations, and therefore you can say that there are things people should not do/should do independent of their own interests.

Sand

In short Kaiser, Palestinians are right, Israelis are wrong. Always.

Generally yes, Hamas are now the Palestinian representitives, so individually they are just as responsible for the action of their representivies as individual Israelis are reponsible for the action of theirs. This incidentally is the argument Pro-Palestinian posters have in the past used to justi....woops, "understand".... terrorist attacks on civillians.

Unfortunately, deliberate attacks on civillians are wrong no matter how understandable or whose carrying them out again who. Israeli figures have come out and stated that efforts like using jet sonic booms to disturb sleep, and attacking electrical generation plants are designed to increase pressure on the civillians in Gaza. This is just as wrong as terrorism against Israeli civillians.

The Israelis should limit their attacks to targeting Hamas figures and offices, and focus their pressure where it counts. Hamas can return the soldier, if he hasnt been ritually butchered yet. Ali Boggs on the street cant.

Seems to me, the Israeli invasion of the Gaza strip is a reaction to consistent rocket attacks on Israeli towns from the Gaza strip. Its likely the IDF will be forced to deploy into the Gaza strip on a semi-permament basis to stop terrorists launching these attacks.

I think the Israelis are acting appallingly, especially considering their previous bombing of innocent civilians on a beach.

Even Human Rights Watch have changed their story on that and now accept the IDF investigation that the family was not killed by Israeli shelling - what shrapnel was found did not come from the 155mm guns the IDF used to shell the rocket launching sites in Gaza. But hey, it helps us to justi...."understand" the Palestinians. Just dont ask why the Palestinians used the civillians on the beach as human shields for their attacks on the Israeli civillians....

And how many Palestinian lives equal one Israeli soldier?

Israel appear to be asking Hamas that question... Seeing as Hamas are happy to use Palestinians as human shields, I cant see them being overly concerned by Palestinian deaths however. Lets face it, the more Palestinians die, the more justif.....understanding...Hamas gets.

Flex

Personally, I dont think what Israel is doing is the right thing. I think someone mentioned it here already, but anyway, hypothethically I wouldnt think that Britain was right if they decided during the 70's and 80's to occupy the rest of Ireland because they believed it would prevent the PIRA from importing guns/explosives to use in the north or the UK via ports in the south, etc. or because the PIRA could have been using border towns as bases or safehouses for attacks on RUC forces or British soldiers across the border. Its true Hamas is the elected government, but they only won 43% (IIRC) of the vote, so the majority of the people didnt support or endorse them (although Id say alot more people support them now). Having said that, I do sympathise with Israel because theyre in a very unenviable postion being surrounded by hostile neighbours and have had to fight for their right to exist there. Its a very messy situation.

I wonder what will happen if the soldier is dead when Israel recover him???

fly_agaric

kaiser1 wrote:

Hey guys

Just a quick note....This is a forum to debate and argue ones own PERSONAL points of view and I really think everybody should respect each others.It kinda irritates me when these sorts of discussions decend into slagging matches. Everybody who argues my point of view ,I give thier opinion the respect it deserves regardless of if Im for thier point or against.

I know what you mean about slagging matches and abuse, but you can't expect people who think that your opinion is wrong to respect it. They should respect you (unless your opinion is completely twisted and evil), but not your opinion.

Here is another thing.People say how bad things are for the People of Gaza.I heard one reporter describe it as nothing more than a rubbish tip.OK...so its gonna need money to try and get itself on its feet.

What is the point of the EU/US/Japan giving money to provide Gazans with infrastructure when Israel just blows it up during their latest Colonial air-policing campaign!

New_Departure06 wrote:

After the withdrawl from Gaza, they continued - even in ceasefire - to bomb Gazan streets supposedly to kill "terrorists". It's almost as if they were trying to provoke Hamas and the other militants back into a tit-for-tat situation.

Yes.

At the time of the pullout I guessed they were moving the settlers and soldiers out of Gaza so they could police it more easily and cheaply (in lives as well as money) with gunships, jets, artillery, UAV/UCAV drones etc.

Now I'm positive that is exactly why Sharon made his move for peace (LOL).

New_departure06 wrote:

Israel is a serious threat to world peace. Economic sanctions now to pressure them into getting their imperialist hands off of the Palestinian territories, or else a consumer boycott.

I really wish the EU countries would boycott them. The inevitable US reaction is what is preventing this, but at some point even the US must lose patience with the crap Israel pulls .

Here's hoping.

BTW, I try not to by anything produced in Israel, not that it really makes any difference I suppose.
(Funnliy enough, the chip in this PC is an AMD socket A athlon...).

Sand

hypothethically I wouldnt think that Britain was right if they decided during the 70's and 80's to occupy the rest of Ireland because they believed it would prevent the PIRA from importing guns/explosives to use in the north or the UK via ports in the south, etc. or because the PIRA could have been using border towns as bases or safehouses for attacks on RUC forces or British soldiers across the border.

Ah this old chestnut raises its head again.

Irish governments, Defence Forces and Gardai co-operated and assisted in the fight against Provo terror. Hamas.....well Ill leave you to figure that one out.

fly_agaric

fly_agaric wrote:

I really wish the EU countries would boycott them. The inevitable US reaction is what is preventing this

Hmmmmm, maybe they believe that the Jews have a right to live peacefully in their own country? Why does any support for Israel have to be portrayed in some 'slavish devotion to Uncle Sam' light. I owe the US nothing, yet I think the Israelis are reacting correctly to what has happened.

Does anyone think that the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier is acceptable? If not, what is the correct way to respond? Give in to terrorists? Release terrorist prisoners. People are falling over themselves in the rush to condemn Israel, will anyone condemn this outrageous action by the PLO and Hamas?

Ping Chow Chi

I dont see why you are so concerned over one soldier, when further up the post you state that you would support the carpet bombing of the whole of gaza, something that would kill 10,000's of people, young and old alike. When you make comments like that surely you realise that it negates pretty much anything else that you say?

So, one soldier sould not be kidnapped, but 1000 apon 1000 of people should be blown to pieces because of how some of them voted ... if you can see the logic in that, then your world view is more than slightly different to mine.

gandalf

clown bag wrote:

You are a complete [insert word here that wont get me banned from this forum].

Nope but the sentiment is quite clear in your post.

1 week ban.

New_Departure06

Deleted User wrote:

Hmmmmm, maybe they believe that the Jews have a right to live peacefully in their own country? Why does any support for Israel have to be portrayed in some 'slavish devotion to Uncle Sam' light. I owe the US nothing, yet I think the Israelis are reacting correctly to what has happened.

Does anyone think that the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier is acceptable? If not, what is the correct way to respond? Give in to terrorists? Release terrorist prisoners. People are falling over themselves in the rush to condemn Israel, will anyone condemn this outrageous action by the PLO and Hamas?

Why are Palestinian prisoners whose violence was against Israeli soldiers "terrorists" yet Israelis who attack Palestinian combatants "soldiers"? Maybe if the Palestinians had billions of dollars worth of tanks, helicopter-gunships and F16s then they would be considered an army instead of "terrorists" by some commentators!

Why is it okay to jail Palestinian combatants in Israel but not okay for the Palestinian side to jail Israeli soldiers? They are all POWs and Israel does not have any high moral ground on this question. Their reactions are way OTT. They are punishing an entire nation over 1 man.

LegacyUser

Has anyone forgotton that the core aim of Hamas and Islamic Jihad is for the total destruction of Isreal??

So lets take a theory that Isreal approches Hamas with a peace offer...gives them the full atonomy for the west Bank and Gaza...hands over Jeruselem removes all military posts from the Golan heights and removes all her artillery within range of Leb. Now do you not think that such a suitation would not be taken advantage off by the extremists/Syria/Iran??

Hamas will never give up thier struggle untill Isreal is totally wipped off the planet! Its not just a case for Isreal to return to her 1967 borders or whatever year she captured the occupied territories...its her survival and this is at the heart of the Isreali people.They fought for thier exsistence and won against huge odds. Isreal holds the balance of power in the middle east and that is no bad thing.Lets say she didnt and lets say that a country like Syria held the Balance of power there.What does anybody think would be the consequences for the region?

They wouldnt be good thats for sure!

Ping Chow Chi

Ping Chow Chi wrote:

I dont see why you are so concerned over one soldier

Are you concerned about him?

It's not one soldier. It's a government that thinks this sort of behaviour is acceptable. I didn't say I advocated bombing, I said if that's what Hamas push it to then so be it. They (the Palestinian government) can only blame themselves.

fly_agaric

Deleted User wrote:

Hmmmmm, maybe they believe that the Jews have a right to live peacefully in their own country?

You are like a broken record.
What does Israel's right to exist have to do with the justness of its actions in the West Bank and Gaza? Perhaps you think these terrritories *are* Israel's by right?
If so, they are kind of going a bit heavy on their colonial subjects at the moment IMO.

Deleted User wrote:

Why does any support for Israel have to be portrayed in some 'slavish devotion to Uncle Sam' light. I owe the US nothing, yet I think the Israelis are reacting correctly to what has happened.

I didn't mean you. I don't really care what you think about all this since you posted that "carpet bombing":eek: was a proportionate response if Israel don't get their soldier back safe and sound. That is an example of an evil and twisted opinion IMO.:mad:

I meant our governments. It's obvious that the US support for Israel right-or-wrong constrains the freedom of action of EU governments.
Self-interest (avoiding a big row with the US) over principles every time.

(edited for clarity)