Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah Crisis Thread was the "Is Israel right" thread

nuttz

Manic Moran wrote:

According to him, he witness a Hezbullah attempt to kidnap Israeli troops back in 2005. Perhaps it was just a matter of time before all this kicked off.

I hope you are not trying to justify Israel's position.

Do you really think Israel give a sh*t about the two soldiers kidnapped? They are effectively dead. FULLSTOP.

It is so blatantly obvious that this was just an opportunity for Israel to attack, there was other avenues open to them. It's about time they were put in their place so peace can be restored in that entire region.

Hobbes

Manic Moran wrote:

On a lighter note

It would be funny if there wasn't so many fuking dead innocent people. Btw, the British said no because he didn't have a British passport, not because of who he was.

On a funnier note, Rice said "We shouldn't have a truce so soon as it may not hold". So lets keep the senseless killing for now.

Hobbes

If you want funny watch Sky News. There is a report in the media today that the US is currently sending out more bombs+missiles to Israel at the moment.

Rather then point out how wrong this is they had a huge discussion on how well will the new bombs be able to destroy fixed targets in Lebanon and how this is a good thing.

Pa ElGrande

Hezbollah has dealt Israel a difficult hand. It has thought through the battle problem as well as the political dimension carefully. Somewhere in this, there has been either an Israeli intelligence failure or a political failure to listen to intelligence. Hezbollah's capabilities have posed a problem for Israel that allowed Hezbollah to start a war at a time and in a way of its choosing. The inquest will come later in Israel. And Hezbollah will likely be shattered regardless of its planning. The correlation of forces does not favor it. But if it forces Israel not only to defeat its main force but also to occupy, Hezbollah will have achieved its goals.

Special Report: The Battle Joined (Tactical analysis)
http://www.stratfor.com/products/premium/read_article.php?id=270065

But recent combat history provides a chastening lesson that air power, regardless of its accuracy and punch, cannot defeat even a conventional adversary unless it is backed by ground forces. Thus, American military analysts monitoring the conflict caution that Israel may be unable to reach its goal of disarming a shadowy guerrilla army by missiles, bombs and long-range artillery alone.

To that end, small numbers of Israeli commandos already have entered Lebanon, senior Israeli officials acknowledged Wednesday, and more ground forces may be sent in.

To Disarm Shadowy Guerrilla Army, Israeli Air Power May Not Be Enough
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/20/world/middleeast/20military.html

This is going to be long and drawn out unless Isreal can cut Hezbollah's supply lines, (to do this they have to take the Bekaa Valley and Syria) the only way out for both sides will be to bring in the United Nations to maintain a buffer zone.

Slainte70

Pa ElGrande wrote:

This is going to be long and drawn out unless Isreal can cut Hezbollah's supply lines, (to do this they have to take the Bekaa Valley and Syria) the only way out for both sides will be to bring in the United Nations to maintain a buffer zone.

Which by the way, Israel has been calling on the UN and the international community to do for the past feckin' six years but obviously they must have been on holiday as they did absolutely nothing!

Sand

On a funnier note, Rice said "We shouldn't have a truce so soon as it may not hold". So lets keep the senseless killing for now.

Actually thats common sense - declaring a truce whilst the same conditions for violence exist (i.e. Hizbollah rocket attacks on Israel, raids to kidnap Israeli soldiers) simply delay the inevitable outbreak of more violence. The wisest course of action is to resolve the issues causing the violence, then declare the truce.

Hezbollah has had time to dig in, equip and they are much more stronger than fata or hamas. The more they pound Lebanon, the more they make Hezbollah stronger

The reason Hizbollah had time to dig in and equip was because of the IDF withdrawal from South Lebanon. Logically, that would imply the more the IDF pullback the more they make Hizbollah stronger?

It may be time to accept that Hizbollah is not fighting over some minor border dispute. It is fighting to destroy Israel. These aspirations are not compatible or negotiable, given Israels aspirations to live and to exist.

In fairness I think Israel would welcome an international force in south Lebanon but it looks like they want to completely destroy the country before they leave.

There is an international force in South Lebanon. That it has not succeeded in preventing Hizbollah attacks on Israel might explain Israels reluctance to rely on another international force.

They might also point to UNEF, which was supposed to stabilise the Sinai border with Egypt, but instead stood aside when ordered by Egypt, contributing to the outbreak of the Six Day War. The international community doesnt exactly have a strong record in peace enforcement.

Slainte70

Israeli soldiers fighting Hezbollah have said that they heard Hezbollah commanders shouting in Farsi..in other words they are Iranian.

Also from Debka:

DEBKAfile Exclusive: Syria placed its army on war preparedness, pointed Scuds at Israel from Thursday, July 20, the day Tehran took control of Lebanon War

July 22, 2006, 12:27 PM (GMT+02:00)

Our sources add Syrian fighter pilots are sitting in their cockpits.

These orders went out from Syrian president Bashar Assad July 20 when Iran’s Revolutionary Guards commander Brig.-Gen Yahya Rahim Safavi (picture) assumed command of the Lebanon war from Hizballah leader Hassan Nasrallah. Tehran’s direct military intervention in the conflict was accompanied by an Iranian weapons airlift which began landing Wednesday, July 19, at the Abu Ad Duhur military airfield north of Homs. The deliveries include large quantities of new missiles, including the long-range Zelzal and Fajr 3 and Fajr 5 missiles, Katyusha rockets, anti-tank and anti-air missiles sent out from RG HQ in Bandar Abbas on the Persian Gulf.

Assad acted on the assumption that Israel, whose air force and ground forces are already hammering the cross-border supply routes north of the Litani River to block the passage of Iranian hardware to Hizballah, will soon decide to go for Iranian military operations in Damascus and Abu Ad Duhur.

Gen. Safavi has set up two forward command posts which coordinate war operations with Hizballah chief of staff Ibrahim Akil.

One center is working out of a cellar of the Iranian embassy in Beirut to regulate Hizballah rocket fire against Israel and direct the groups of 3 or 4 RG officers taking part in every Hizballah face-to-face engagement with Israeli ground troops in the south.

The second, housed in the basement of the Iranian embassy in Damascus, is in charge of communications, intelligence and getting hardware into Lebanon.

The deliveries were made to the Abu Ad Duhur airfield because it belongs to the joint Iranian-Syrian Scud missile factory which employs a large number of Iranian

engineers and technicians.

DEBKAfile’s military sources report that some of the Iranian arms have Hizballah in Lebanon notwithstanding intense Israeli cutoff operations and their impact will probably be palpable in the coming days.

What the hell did the international community expect when they decided not to implement resolution 1559. Did they honestly expect Hezbollah to disappear off the face of the earth? Now Israel has to deal with thousands of rockets bombing the North of Israel and placing 1 million Israelis in bomb shelters.

metrovelvet

Hobbes wrote:

If you want funny watch Sky News. There is a report in the media today that the US is currently sending out more bombs+missiles to Israel at the moment.

Rather then point out how wrong this is they had a huge discussion on how well will the new bombs be able to destroy fixed targets in Lebanon and how this is a good thing.

Yep. That's right. It is not the news reporters job to moralise, they are there to report.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060722/ts_nm/mideast_bush_weapons_dc

and here we see where neutral Ireland stands:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/07/21/story268837.html

Cork

spanner wrote:

The more they pound Lebanon, the more they make Hezbollah stronger

I agree. The reaction by Israel was OTT. The UN were pretty useless. The international community were ineffective.

Hopefully - a solution will be found - or it could get much worse..

The whole situation is pretty gloomy unless we see some sanity.

fly_agaric

From FOX

"France, the United Nations and Red Cross painted a dire portrait of life for civilians trapped in the south or forced to flee their homes there. They demanded Israel open humanitarian corridors to allow life's necessities — shelter, food, water and medicine — to reach the swelling numbers of displaced people — an estimated half-million."

WTF believes those peace-nik rubes and Ey-rab Terryrist shills anyway!

"But after 10 days, Beirutis — enured by past wars — were emerging more and more from their homes, fed up with staying indoors even as the conflict looked ready to escalate. More shops on downtown Hamra Street were open, and in the evening families, including many southern refugees, were strolling along the seafront, kids roller-blading, young men smoking waterpipes."

See kids - war is cool and the Ey-Rabs are kinda used to it anyway!

Its not so bad and the emerging prospect of another Israeli "temporary" land-grab for security or else a "cleansing" to create a "buffer" can only improve things for the future.

Dirk Gently

metrovelvet wrote:

and here we see where neutral Ireland stands:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/07/21/story268837.html

whats your point exactly metrovelvet?

Officially Israel has said it is at war with Hezbollah, not the innocent civilians of Lebanon and Gaza. How is Ireland sending Humanitarian aid to non- combatants who are suffering as a result of the conflict in any way a breach of neutrality. Ireland has sent humanitarian aid to those who are suffering as a result of Israeli aggression and indiscriminate bombings. Ireland is not funding either Hezbollah or the IDF nor are they providing logistical or political support to either Hezbollah or the IDF so in this case neutrality is in tact.
(unless of course you are of the opinion that civilians are legitimate targets and should be killed indiscriminately and not recieve any aid)

I agree with you if you are trying to say that Ireland’s neutrality is a shambles in general, but not in this case. I think Irelands support for America in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is shameful and it saddens me that my country abandons its neutral status to aid American wars but in this instance where Ireland has provided aid to innocent civilians who are being slaughtered by the IDF it does not breach neutrality because the innocent civilians are not at war, they are just caught in the middle of the American / Israeli and Hezbollah conflict.

sand wrote:

There is an international force in South Lebanon. That it has not succeeded in preventing Hizbollah attacks on Israel might explain Israels reluctance to rely on another international force.

They might also point to UNEF, which was supposed to stabilise the Sinai border with Egypt, but instead stood aside when ordered by Egypt, contributing to the outbreak of the Six Day War. The international community doesnt exactly have a strong record in peace enforcement.

I agree with everything you’ve said there, that’s why I think its time for a very large peace enforcement force that are capable of policing south Lebanon to be deployed.
As well as the very large (and aggressive when needed) force in the south of the country, the Lebanese state forces should work along side the international force and receive training and equipment needed to effectively police their boarders themselves a few years down the line. No doubt this has been Israelis intention from the start, that is to make it a priority for the international community to secure the boarder but I think if they continue with their bombardment the opportunity will be lost, especially if the IDF ends up engaging the Lebanese army which they more than likely will if they proceed with a large ground invasion which looks almost imminent at this stage.

No doubt if the conflict expands from bombings and small incursions to full scale ground war between both nations armies then other countries will get involved and it will become impossible for a peace enforcement force to deploy in a full scale international war zone. I don’t see how the Israelis expect an already weak Lebanese government to assert its authority on its boarders if they continue to weaken Lebanon even further.

I’m starting to think more cynically with every day that passes, in that the tactics been used by the Israelis and the Americans are designed more for escalation of the conflict, paving the way for military strikes on Iran and Syria, giving the coalition total influence in the region rather than any attempt to secure the north Israeli / south Lebanon boarder. I think most people who understood or justified the Israel action at the beginning are now growing much smaller in number. Time to call a spade a spade, what Israel is doing is simply state terrorism and if they continue it is going to lead to an expanded conflict with America / Israel / Britain on one side and Lebanon / Syria / Iran on the other side. No doubt that’s what many in Washington want but if Israel really want the boarder secured as they still claim, without expanding the fighting to involve other countries, then I think now is the time for a ceasefire and create a window for the Lebanese forces backed up by an international force to move into the vacuum that is south Lebanon.

The civilian massacre can’t be justified any longer in my opinion, not that I ever did justify state terrorism as being any more civilized to Guerilla terrorism.

Hobbes

metrovelvet wrote:

Yep. That's right. It is not the news reporters job to moralise, they are there to report.

Strange because they appeared to moralising it.

Israel have already shown they can hit presicion targets, so all US is doing is backing thier attacks.

[edit]

Bush on TV now saying he is condoning Israels actions. Doesn't just condone them but saying that Iran/Syria are to blame as well.

fly_agaric

^^I think metrovelvet believes the Irish Govt. are not on the side of freedom (of fire) and hip, oops, democricy here.
We could, like, you know, be supporting terryrists against the "Free World"TM*.


* the industrial strength saracsm is a result of extreme anger over what has been going on the past while. I'm pretty shaken by it all and can hardly believe it tbh.

metrovelvet

fly_agaric wrote:

^^I think metrovelvet believes the Irish Govt. are not on the side of freedom (of fire) and hip, oops, democricy here.
We could, like, you know, be supporting terryrists against the "Free World"TM*.


* the industrial strength saracsm is a result of extreme anger over what has been going on the past while. I'm pretty shaken by it all and can hardly believe it tbh.

I can speak for myself thank you.

Dirk Gently

fly_agaric wrote:

^^I think metrovelvet believes the Irish Govt. are not on the side of freedom (of fire) and hip, oops, democricy here.
We could, like, you know, be supporting terryrists against the "Free World"TM*.


* the industrial strength saracsm is a result of extreme anger over what has been going on the past while. I'm pretty shaken by it all and can hardly believe it tbh.

*maybe us terrorist sympathisers here in Ireland hate Americas freedom
After all, what other reason could there be for us sympathising with innocent victims of American/ Israeli weapons of mass destruction. Its obvious that we hate freedom.


*similar strength sarcasm as was used by fly agaric for the same reasons that I am disgusted with the conduct of Israel and America and can't quite believe they're getting away with it.

Manic Moran

nuttz wrote:

Do you really think Israel give a sh*t about the two soldiers kidnapped? They are effectively dead. FULLSTOP.

I agree. I expect that they will be returned as bodies. As were the last set of Israeli soldiers to be captured by Hezbullah. And probably the next set to be captured. I would be less than satisfied with basically saying "OK, we're going to play a big long game of 'tag'. You try to catch troops, we try to avoid being caught" and having that situation carry on indefinitely.

Btw, the British said no because he didn't have a British passport, not because of who he was.

Well, that was part of it, but not all of it. If it was as simple as that, the British would be saying it was as simple as that (It is, after all, a convenient solid line). He claims to have written the British embassy to be allowed back in. Foreign Office Minister Lord Triesman, who is in Cyprus to observe the arrival of evacuated Britons, said he thought Mr Bakri Mohammed was trying to gain publicity. "The decision was taken by the home secretary that his presence in the United Kingdom was not conducive given his attitudes and given the way he's spoken of this country, the United Kingdom. It was not conducive for the well-being of the country... It's a bit of theatre to be candid with you." Spanner's comments about "Do as I say, not as I do" in his case are spot-on.

I also find myself in strong agreement with Spanner's later comments:

the solution is not rocket science, Israel ceasfire, Hezbollah hand back the Israeli soldiers and a international force patrols the southern border buffer zone. Yes you might say this is an impossible thing to ask but if the international community puts pressure on both sides they can reach an agreement.

About the one thing I would add to that is that the international force put themselves at the Lebanese government's service, to actively aid the Lebanese in regaining control of their territory, as opposed to doing so in the name of the UN.

Rather then point out how wrong this is they had a huge discussion on how well will the new bombs be able to destroy fixed targets in Lebanon and how this is a good thing.

Whilst politically it does look bad for the US, if we assume that Israel is going to continue bombing regardless of whether or not it recevies new munitions, would you rather that they bomb with precision weapons, or dumb bombs which are less likely to hit solely the target that they're aiming at?

I find myself also in agreement with Clown Bag in some of his statements.

that’s why I think its time for a very large peace enforcement force that are capable of policing south Lebanon to be deployed... the Lebanese state forces should work along side the international force and receive training and equipment needed to effectively police their boarders themselves a few years down the line. No doubt this has been Israelis intention from the start, that is to make it a priority for the international community to secure the boarder but I think if they continue with their bombardment the opportunity will be lost, especially if the IDF ends up engaging the Lebanese army which they more than likely will if they proceed with a large ground invasion which looks almost imminent at this stage.

NTM

Sgt. Sensible

fly_agaric wrote:

I believe this war is unjustified and wrong so it is academic really. You justify it - indeed you've actually praised it by comparing Israeli actions against their enemy to the failure of Chamberlain et al to act against the Nazis.

And he throws away any credibility his argument may have had in the process. I shall say this only once since it is off topic. The US, UK and France had little appetite to oppose fascism because to do so would have meant supporting anti-capitalist social revolution or at the very least, radical reform. The French PM, Blum tried, but couldn't maintain enough support. The alternative to Nazi Germany was a socialist/communist one, and the alternative to Franco's Spain, (the only real opportunity to stop fascism), was an anarchist/socialist one. Since the war, liberal democracies have had few qualms about supporting right wing dictatorships against left leaning governments or opposition, eg, South Africa, Chile, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Congo, Philippines, Argentina, Guatemala, Brazil, Haiti, Greece, Portugal, Paraguay etc etc.

Now, no more nazi rubbish and secondary school level history please?

tallus

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

And he throws away any credibility his argument may have had in the process. I shall say this only once since it is off topic. The US, UK and France had little appetite to oppose fascism because to do so would have meant supporting anti-capitalist social revolution or at the very least, radical reform. The French PM, Blum tried, but couldn't maintain enough support. The alternative to Nazi Germany was a socialist/communist one, and the alternative to Franco's Spain, (the only real opportunity to stop fascism), was an anarchist/socialist one. Since the war, liberal democracies have had few qualms about supporting right wing dictatorships against left leaning governments or opposition, eg, South Africa, Chile, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Congo, Philippines, Argentina, Guatemala, Brazil, Haiti, Greece, Portugal, Paraguay etc etc.

Now, no more nazi rubbish and secondary school level history please?

I think people will always compare the past to what's happening in the here and now Sgt, because history seems to have a habit of repeating itself. The "nazi rubbish" played a large part in shaping the world we live in today and it's valid to use in arguments sometimes as an example of how things can go wrong if people "dont" pay attention to what's happening in the world around them.
that's my 2 cents anyways

JustSomeone

Slainte70 wrote:

Israeli soldiers fighting Hezbollah have said that they heard Hezbollah commanders shouting in Farsi..in other words they are Iranian.

And it's well known that the IDF never lies.

JustSomeone

clown bag wrote:

Officially Israel has said it is at war with Hezbollah

Which is still the nonsense invented by the Bush government. Nations declare war on nations - not on "terror", not on "terrorists", not on "supporters of terror"...

Rock Climber

JustSomeone wrote:

Which is still the nonsense invented by the Bush government. Nations declare war on nations - not on "terror", not on "terrorists", not on "supporters of terror"...

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought hezbollah were a junior partner in the lebanon government?

fly_agaric

metrovelvet wrote:

I can speak for myself thank you.

I know. Okay, the sarcasm was a bit overboard but could you explain what that comment was about more fully?

I assumed it meant that if, instead of doing nothing at all, Ireland gives money to help the civilians, some of whom probably at least sympathise with Hizbollah + may support it it shows Ireland implicitly supports Hizbollah in its atacks against Israel. Compromising our "neutrality" (which is mostly a load of shít anyway)

Just thinking aloud...

Anyway, I wonder what will arrive in Israel first and which will be more welcomed, the guided weapons re-supply or Condi Rice?:eek:

metrovelvet

I didn't make a comment. I was just sharing info.

However, if I were to comment, it would be more a long the lines of how the world at large throws money and supplies at the middle east, a region in which neither side is will to lay any blame on themselves. And when its always someone else's fault nothing will change. So they keep up the violence and we keep enabling it.

I have no patience for either side at this point. Im sick to death of them both.

oscarBravo

metrovelvet wrote:

I didn't make a comment. I was just sharing info.

However, if I were to comment, it would be more a long the lines of how the world at large throws money and supplies at the middle east, a region in which neither side is will to lay any blame on themselves. And when its always someone else's fault nothing will change. So they keep up the violence and we keep enabling it.

I have no patience for either side at this point. Im sick to death of them both.

I find it hard to disagree with any of the sentiments expressed in this post.

redspider

JustSomeone wrote:

Saturday the 22nd: 12.00
Garden of Remembrance, Dublin.
Two minutes silence for the dead, with members of the Lebanese and
Palestinian community in Ireland and families of Irish soldiers killed
during the UNIFIL mission.

Saturday the 22nd: 1400

Protest called by Socialist Youth at the Central Bank on Dame St.

I believe that other protests are being held country/world wide

Amnesty has sample protest letters and contact details at:
http://www.amnesty.ie/user/content/view/full/6125/

Trocaire has some at:
http://trocaire.ie/newsandinformation/palestine/metakeaction.htm

Online petition at:
http://julywar.epetitions.net

Apart from these notices, has anyone else been wondering why the lifting of the two IDF soldiers is frequently being trotted out as justification for, well anything Israel decides it wants to do, while the hundreds of people held without trial in Israeli institutions (recently joined by 8 palestinian ministers and 20 MP's) is hardly mentioned?

Thanks for that informaion about protests. I heard on the news that only 30 people attended though. This is a very low number which unfortunately the Israeli's will use as a sign that these killings are acceptable even for Irish people (due to the low level of active protest). Larger and more visible protests are needed.

Whilst writing to MP's etc is of use, it is slow and results are poor at best. A boycott of Israeli goods by consumers might be a signal of our displeasure, an also more on-street peaceful protests, candles, etc.

RTE, BBC and the equivalent channels in the major countries need to show the pictures of death/killings that are taking places, as pointed out on various websites, many of them children. Then after they are shown and people realise what is going on, they may be more mobilised to attend a protest for peace and Israeli ceasing their hostilities.

Meanwhile: 50 dead in Iraq .....

This planet is a mess!

Redspider

Sgt. Sensible

tallus wrote:

I think people will always compare the past to what's happening in the here and now Sgt, because history seems to have a habit of repeating itself. The "nazi rubbish" played a large part in shaping the world we live in today and it's valid to use in arguments sometimes as an example of how things can go wrong if people "dont" pay attention to what's happening in the world around them.
that's my 2 cents anyways

True, but the context is very important, just labelling one side in a conflict as nazis because in the public mind nazism represents the ultimate evil, is a lazy cheap point scoring tactic. Before people start throwing the 'n' word about they should at least examine the political climate of 1930's europe and ask themselves what position they would have taken and why.

Anyway, here's a question for those who'd like to see a UN peacekeeping force deployed. If there were to be repeats of the incidents where UN troops were killed or civilians blatantly massacred (as in Qana), what measures would need to be taken against those responsible? I could never understand how our government tolerated the deaths of Irish troops in Lebanon.

Sgt. Sensible

redspider wrote:

This planet is a mess!

Redspider

I think the 80's were worse in fairness.

tallus

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

True, but the context is very important, just labelling one side in a conflict as nazis because in the public mind nazism represents the ultimate evil, is a lazy cheap point scoring tactic. Before people start throwing the 'n' word about they should at least examine the political climate of 1930's europe and ask themselves what position they would have taken and why.

Anyway, here's a question for those who'd like to see a UN peacekeeping force deployed. If there were to be repeats of the incidents where UN troops were killed or civilians blatantly massacred (as in Qana), what measures would need to be taken against those responsible? I could never understand how our government tolerated the deaths of Irish troops in Lebanon.

Agreed

nuttz

nuttz wrote:

Israel have no excuse, they have the backing of the US, that is not propaganda, that is fact, and that is why the conflict still exists there.

No excuse? So protecting your country from missile attacks doesn't count? hmmm.... I wonder would you feel the same way if it was your town being fired upon.

How many Irish soldiers served in Lebanon just for the Israelies to f*ck it all up?

So I take it you're ignoring hezbollah's major input into starting this war?

mike65

Syria are playing an interesting game, a government minsiter has just said that they will stop Hezbollah and tackle the flow of jihadists into Iraq for a place at the table solving the current crisis - translates as "we want to run Lebanon again". No doubt Israel will resist that offer but the US might find it hard to dismiss.


Mike.