Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah Crisis Thread was the "Is Israel right" thread

nuttz

nuttz wrote:

Do you really think Israel give a sh*t about the two soldiers kidnapped? They are effectively dead. FULLSTOP.

It doesn't matter. With such a huge portion of their population commited to the military the Israeli government can never be seen to desert them. The Military and the population would expect a response to the capture, and while the actual response may be more than they expect it, I've noticed alot of Israeli's fully agreeing with it.

It is so blatantly obvious that this was just an opportunity for Israel to attack, there was other avenues open to them. It's about time they were put in their place so peace can be restored in that entire region.

Right. Shame nobody ever addresses that sort of comment to hezbollah or the other "freedom"/"resistance" groups in the region. Every time a peace initiative has failed its taken both sides to screw things up. Perhaps you should notice that there's rarely a reduction in attacks on Israel even when a peace initiative is under way?

I'm just amazed that people like yourself can ignore that hezbollah started this conflict. :rolleyes:

Hobbes

Deleted User wrote:

Perhaps you should notice that there's rarely a reduction in attacks on Israel even when a peace initiative is under way?

Actually both sides are as bad. If I recall the last Hamas ceasefire agreed with Israel (which Israel agreed to) Isreal proceeded to bomb the crap out of Palistine because they have a legtimate right by thier defination to kill terrorists even if they are hiding in a full apartment block of innocent people.

Also if Israel is doing this to stop rocket attacks which are instigated in the south why did they feel the need to fly thier bombers all the way north and bomb the crap out of the capital city?

I'm just amazed that people like yourself can ignore that hezbollah started this conflict. :rolleyes:

Thats pretty much oversimplifying the issue. As mentioned elsewhere you appear to be suggesting prior to the kidnapping everything was rainbows and sunshine in that region.

Dirk Gently

Deleted User wrote:

I'm just amazed that people like yourself can ignore that hezbollah started this conflict. :rolleyes:

I'm amazed that some people think Hezbollah just had a meeting on a street corner one day and decided, "Let’s form a terrorist group and attack Israel for the craic".

If you want to apply blame to who started all this you will have to answer the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg.
You can lay all the blame on Hezbollah if you think that the capture of an Israeli soldier sparked all this off but then you would have to ignore all the 1000's of prisoners the Israelis are holding or else you would have to assume that every prisoner Israel is holding is actually a terrorist and none of them are innocent. You would also have to conveniently overlook the fact that Israeli forces were killing innocent Palestinians in the lead up to the IDF soldier being taken hostage. You would also have to overlook the fact that the Israeli parliament approved large scale military action a couple of weeks before the soldier was kidnapped. I personally think the capture of the soldier was simply the trigger which the Israelis were looking for in order to carry out the bombardment. Fair enough, its a good excuse alright but if it wasn’t the soldier capture it would have been something else and Israel would have made damn sure to provoke a response which they could then react to.

If you want to blame anyone blame hardened attitudes and hawkish political leaders. The courageous thing would have been to offer olive branches, skilled diplomacy and aid long before the capture of the soldier. Make one small concession and build from there, but instead all we ever get from all sides is saber rattling and strong man rhetoric.

ronbyrne2005

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/17/AR2006071701154.html
Interesting article by a Jew which is causing a lot of annoyance among Israels supporters in America.

Squaddy

I havent read through much of this thread but I noticed a lot of people said that Hezbollah started this. That is an ignorant thing to say. I wont get into it but dont forget Israel bombed the f!ck out of a Arab women and her children a month ago while playing on a beach. Why was nothing said about that?

Manic Moran

Probably because the whole tit-for-tat thing is just business as usual, and people likely didn't even notice it in the news.

NTM

tallus

It made the news here alright but as Manic said, it was a case of business as usual unfortunately. Israel denied that they shelled the family despite the fact that one of their ships was in the vicinity firing rounds. Laughable really i.m.o.

Slainte70

I found a well-written article in the Independent today.....gives a better understanding of where exactly everyone is coming from...

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=45&si=1658738&issue_id=14403

Ideas and not bombs are Israel's best weapons now


SORRY, but I want to say a few words about South Lebanon. I'm sorry for three reasons. First, in my experience, an excessive interest in foreign politics, like an excessive interest in embryos by elderly male politicians, is the sign of a skewed personality.

Second, leeching on other countries' problems is always an affectation. When Boswell wondered if guests would be able for dinner after hearing the bad news about the Battle of Fontenoy (where Clare's Wild Geese did the deed), Dr Johnson smartly told him that it would do nothing to dent their appetite.

Third, sounding off in Ireland has no impact abroad. Possibly, Senators Norris and Higgins's florid Seanad speeches made them look good to the Palestinian observers - who actually needed a rebuke to remind them that abducting an Israeli soldier was bound to provoke an angry reaction.

But Senator John Minihan's speech hit the mark. By reminding us about the abduction (and likely murder) of Private Caoimhghin Seoighe, in South Lebanon in 1981, he helped us put Israeli actions in perspective.

* * *

No, I am not saying we should not denounce states who do wrong. But we should not single out some states for castigation more than others. As the Irish media does to Israel.

Given that Israel has a good case - it was not the initial aggressor - why does it get such a bad press in the Western media? In the past I have speculated on reasons ranging from suppressed anti-Semitism to deflected anti-Americanism. But nowadays I feel it might be a kind of inverted compliment.

At some level we may secretly expect the Israelis to behave better than their enemies. If so, what do we expect Israel to do about Hizbollah - proxy terrorists sponsored by Iran and Syria who want to see Israel wiped from the face of the earth? Here is a little exercise to help us imaginatively stand in Israel's shoes.

Imagine Ireland is the only Catholic country in a militantly Protestant Europe which demands that we set up a separate state for Ulster unionists, on their terms, at the same time announcing that Europe's long term aim is to wipe us out. In the meantime, Britain (in the role of Iran) sponsors UDA abductions of Irish Army soldiers as well as rocket attacks from Northern Ireland on Irish towns.

Although the analogy is not exact, it gives us a general idea of how the Irish Republic might react. Would we let civilian deaths restrain us from bombing UDA rocket launchers in densely populated districts of east Belfast? Would we be impressed by senior senators in some tiny Latin American republic denouncing us as the aggressor? Would we what?

Luckily, in real history, we were dealing with Britain, a democracy which put some boundaries on what it would do. Israel's enemies have no such boundaries. As soon as Iran has nuclear weapons every Israeli is on death row.

To which the left replies that Israel has nuclear weapons now. So it does. But most of us believe that Israel would not use nuclear weapons unless it was itself subjected to nuclear attack - and even then a respectable minority of Israelis would reject a nuclear response by Israel, no matter what.

The truth is that at some level we believe Israel broke its own moral boundaries by bombing the infrastructure of South Lebanon. Ground troops yes, bombing no. In sum, whatever its enemies may do, we expect Israel to make a proportionate response.

* * *

But what is a proportionate response? None of us knows the answer in advance. Aristotle, the author of the idea of proportion in politics, says it has to be worked out in practice.

Aristotle, unlike Plato, did not believe that abstract propositions were set apart from our actions. For Aristotle, courage consists merely in men acting courageously.

Likewise, proportionate response comes down to men acting proportionately - which for Aristotle always means acting politically. So while Israel might have a better abstract case than Hizbollah in a court of law, in an Aristotelian world this does not give Israel any right to act disproportionately.

Aristotle would argue that Israel must respond proportionately because to do so is not only morally correct but morally prudent. It means winning the high ground, physically and politically. There are no guides to good actions.

* * *

At least there are no guides for Aristotelians. But the left, as Karl Popper pointed out, is profoundly Platonist, and can act according to a party line called essentialism. For the left, the essence of something, such as a correct political principle, decides its existence, ie the correct political action.

Look, says the leftist media, America wiped out the Native Americans equals ethnic cleansing. The Nazis wiped out the Jews equals ethnic cleansing too.

So there is is no essential difference between America and Nazi Germany. Done and dusted.

Aristotelians have no such handy manual to help them tick off the right answers like Mr Justice Barr. Each problem is a set in a specific historical situation, subject to constant change of context and circumstance. Like the situation at Abbeylara. Like the gardai there, we must act as bestwe can.

Luckily, most people are natural Aristotelians. Given the facts and time we can distinguish between proportionate and disproportionate actions. We seem to have a built -in balancing barometer which tells us the difference.

This sense of proportion is probably what Aristotle really means when he says man is a political animal.

* * *

A sense of proportion is not subjective, or random or relative. In a calm society it comes as consensus. Let me give an example. Although we might think it misguided, most Irish people - including me - feel no shame about the IRA campaign in the Fifties.

That is because the campaign was conducted within boundaries: the IRA did not target Protestants who were members of the B Specials, and it attacked well-armed members of the RUC, who resisted from behind barrack walls. In contrast, most decent people did feel some shame about the IRA's sectarian shooting of Protestant part-time members of the UDR in the Seventies.

Naturally, Platonists of the left persist in saying there is no essential difference between the two IRA campaigns which had the same essential ends. But most Irish people can see that the means, not the ends, decided the proportionate difference.

Israel should do more to appeal to that profound sense of proportion in western democracies. Most people do not expect Israel to endure endless rocket attacks. Most people are willing to support a proportionate response. Most people are profoundly suspicious of Islamist intentions towards the democratic world.

Accordingly, Israel should stand back and take stock. It needs to wage a new kind of war. It needs to focus western fears of Islamist terrorism and show that Israel is in the front line of democracy. It needs to invest less in bombs and more in ideas.

Aristotle calls it politics.


Eoghan Harris

Sgt. Sensible

Eoghan Harris was wrong when he was an IRA supporter, wrong about the invasion of Iraq and he's wrong about this too.

tallus

Slainte70 wrote:

I found a well-written article in the Independent today.....gives a better understanding of where exactly everyone is coming from...

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=45&si=1658738&issue_id=14403

I think it only gives an indication of where the writer of the article is coming from, he doesn't speak for me, that's for sure.

Carry

Sorry, I gave up reading this thread at page 3 or 4, I apologize for probably repeating some argument since.
And I gave up reading this stuff from Harris as above quoted. I never could stand this guy who's opinion always is about himself trying to stand out and being arrogantly clever. He has no opinion. Full stop.

Anyway, I've been thinking about Israel's politics for quite some time. Some time means actually my lifetime. Being a German national (living in Ireland for almost 10 years) you can't avoid thinking about Israel - being educated into understanding even loving it. Brainwashed into it, out of rightful guilt.

There is no denying that the state of Israel (and we learned the distinction between Jews and Israel) is an aggressive country where the government is strongly influenced by the military and their helpers like Mossad etc. Israel is still driven by her obsession to prove her reason for existence.
Understandable, but questionable.

With a familiar f***-up by the Brits (I don't get into this now cause it's a long story of crumbling empires) they founded a country where they had historical roots but no actual need to displace and kill countless Arab people just to find a home.
I know it's more complicated than that like everything but basicly the initial aggression came from the state of Israel. There was no strong Muslim movement, just people doing their business and praying to their god.

By the way, did anyone ever consider that Judaism is the predecessor of Christianity and Christianity the predecessor of Islam? The three monotheistic religions do come from the same roots. Like Protestantism is a further diversity in Christianity. Would anyone in Ireland really talk about a religious war in the North? It's never about religion, it's about power. Always.

Now can you imagine being depossessed and humiliated by a people who just come into your country, treat your culture, your religion with contempt, drive you into refugee camps or special reservations, treat you like underdogs and have all the power of an empire, in the case of Israel the support and weapons of the western world? Sounds familiar? To hell or to Connaught? To hell or to Gaza? And we take Gaza, too?

Can you imagine the desperation of these people, being despised by powerful countries, by a foreign culture which considers herself as superior? Being left alone and nobody cares? Having lost everything and most of all their dignity?

Israel with the support of the western world - especially the support of the US and Germany who both until this moment sell weapons of mass destruction (!) to this country of Israel even if they talk officially about peace bla bla) created the islamic fundamentalism by forcing the Arab people to desperate measures to at least regain their dignity. Without Israel there wouldn't be an Islamic fundamentalism. At least not one which attacks the western world.

Chicken and egg? No. Imperialism, as simple as that. And who is the empire in the new imperialism?

I truly think that Israel's intention is not to get their two "kidnapped" soldiers back. I believe they don't give a doggie's fart about two soldiers. The Israeli army never did. No army ever did or does.

By the way, why are soldiers who threaten the border of another country being described as kidnapped and not being simply prisoners of war?

I write this not out of my heart or such like. I write because I did some research. I've read online Al Jazeera and the Jerusalem Post. And it's like reading An Phoblacht and the Sunday Independant ... :rolleyes:

No.
It's worse.

Hobbes

Hobbes wrote:

Actually both sides are as bad. If I recall the last Hamas ceasefire agreed with Israel (which Israel agreed to) Isreal proceeded to bomb the crap out of Palistine because they have a legtimate right by thier defination to kill terrorists even if they are hiding in a full apartment block of innocent people.

Actually I agree. There's just a tendacy on these forums to focus entirely on Israel ignoring the actions of these "Freedom" fighters.

Also if Israel is doing this to stop rocket attacks which are instigated in the south why did they feel the need to fly thier bombers all the way north and bomb the crap out of the capital city?

No Idea. I'm not saying I know their intentions by any means. I'm saying that the reason they've put forward, being to stop the rocket attacks does make sense, considering the level of attacks that have been made over the last few weeks. Lebannon was used as a staging point for attacks on Israel before, and I figure they want to try to stop it from happening again.

Thats pretty much oversimplifying the issue. As mentioned elsewhere you appear to be suggesting prior to the kidnapping everything was rainbows and sunshine in that region.

Ok. There's a difference between tensions, and border skirmishes and actual commitment of ground & air assets. Prior to this conflict, Israel didn't have their army on the Lebanese border in force, nor were reserves called up. Between the kidnapping and the missiles, they've (hezbollah) escalated the situation so that Israel has responded with massive force.

Tell me that you don't think that hezbollah didn't cause Israel to go in? Cause their actions set the scene for israel to retalitate.

And sure, maybe it was just an excuse for Israel to go in. Maybe you're right. But it was hezbollah that provided that excuse, and they gave a pretty good one...

clown bag wrote:

I'm amazed that some people think Hezbollah just had a meeting on a street corner one day and decided, "Let’s form a terrorist group and attack Israel for the craic".

Never thought they did. I assumed they came from backgrounds where they were on the receiving end of Israeli violence, conscripted just to fight, or were following a religious idiology.

f you want to apply blame to who started all this you will have to answer the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg.

I thought it was quite simple actually. Who started the conflict that caused israel to react so strongly? Yup, you got it, Hezbollah .

And I'm not the first to assign blame here. This whole topic started from a question as to whether israel was right or wrong. And the thread is full of people assigning blame for the instability of the M.east.

If you want to blame anyone blame hardened attitudes and hawkish political leaders. The courageous thing would have been to offer olive branches, skilled diplomacy and aid long before the capture of the soldier. Make one small concession and build from there, but instead all we ever get from all sides is saber rattling and strong man rhetoric.

Oddly enough I agree with you. It would have been nice to see such a reaction from Israel & Lebannon, with a way to resolve the problem without needing israel to attack.

ronbyrne2005

Dont forget israel is supposed to be a democratic state ,we should hold democratic states to a higher standard than a group of terrorists even if they are in part state sponsored, are israels actions not terrorist? they meet the definition in my book, i dont condone any killing of innocnet civillians on either side, when a supposed democratic state kills hundreds of innocent civillians with the tacit backing of the worlds only superpower then i get annoyed.the lebanese civilians are being used for a wider agenda .

mayhem#

I could post my opinion on the matter here in detail and would probably get banned for it.
But yes, Israel is absolutely logical in it's response...

E.

Dirk Gently

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

the lebanese civilians are being used for a wider agenda .

In a nut shell that is exactly what is going on. There is obviously a wider pre planned agenda been played out and the Lebanese civilians are the victims of the wider political game plan.

Slainte70

Carry wrote:

I truly think that Israel's intention is not to get their two "kidnapped" soldiers back. I believe they don't give a doggie's fart about two soldiers. The Israeli army never did. No army ever did or does.

Maybe it's the international community that could not give a "doggie's fart" about the two soldiers but trust me, every Israeli official and citizen has not given up hope in praying for their safe release. I know this must be difficult for you to comprehend....

Interestingly enough, Abu Masen is trying to broker a deal where by Hamas will release Gilad Shalit (who is alive) if Israel agrees to a ceasefire in Gaza...however Meshal who is sitting comfortably in Syria has yet to give the green light...

As for Udi Goldwasser and Eldad Regev who have been kidnapped by Hezbollah are said to be alive...that is according to a Lebanese Minister anyway....

Carry

Slainte70 wrote:

Maybe it's the international community that could not give a "doggie's fart" about the two soldiers but trust me, every Israeli official and citizen has not given up hope in praying for their safe release. I know this must be difficult for you to comprehend....
....

You know that???? How so?

The soldiers were just an excuse to show a bit of muscle. As people they don't count, not for the "Israeli officials", not for the military. The only ones who might pray for their safe release are their families and friends. I wonder if anyone prays for peace ...
And your name-dropping is quite selective. Do you know the names of all the victims in Lebanon, too? I doubt it.

Instead of getting personal and all prayful you should look at the reality in the middle east, a country bombed back into the middle ages and a western world looking on, waiting for an excuse to get Iran and her oil.
And all that for Udi and Eldad? Get real.

sovtek

redspider wrote:

Thanks for that informaion about protests. I heard on the news that only 30 people attended though. This is a very low number which unfortunately the Israeli's will use as a sign that these killings are acceptable even for Irish people (due to the low level of active protest). Larger and more visible protests are needed.

Whilst writing to MP's etc is of use, it is slow and results are poor at best. A boycott of Israeli goods by consumers might be a signal of our displeasure, an also more on-street peaceful protests, candles, etc.

RTE, BBC and the equivalent channels in the major countries need to show the pictures of death/killings that are taking places, as pointed out on various websites, many of them children. Then after they are shown and people realise what is going on, they may be more mobilised to attend a protest for peace and Israeli ceasing their hostilities.

Meanwhile: 50 dead in Iraq .....

This planet is a mess!

Redspider

I was at the one at Central Bank and there weren't many people there...although I'd say it was about 100. Fair play to the Socialist Youth for giving it a go but it wasn't very well organized and there might have been a better turn out if more experienced orgs had participated.
I think there were half as many Guardia there as protestors...one guy I was talking to joked that it looked more like a police protest of some sort.
I was kinda curious about Amnesty Intl's plans as they are just around the corner from the Central Bank.
I also think that war footage should be totally uncensored. I believe that the average person wouldn't accept the excuses we typically get for war then.

sovtek

Benedict XVI wrote:

Any links ?

From it's inception in May '48, Israel was immediatly attcked by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan.
Israel beat them back.

Ask "after the Stern gang and Israeli forces did what?" then you'll have a better grasp of the reality of the situation.

In June '67 Egypt, Syria and Jordan were ready to invade but Isreal beat them to it and they were on their knees in 6 days.

And politicians in the Knesset and IDF Generals never believed that would happen, "war is not the Arabs game" they did however talk about expanding their control of more Arab land "given to us by God".
Incidentally when the IDF attack Egypt they lied and claimed that Egypt attacked them first.

If that is not the threat of destruction, what is ?

From what Israeli politicians and religious fanatics in the colonies (ie settlements) talk about it's the expansion of Israel and the surrounding countries' being obstacles.

fly_agaric

mike65 wrote:

Syria are playing an interesting game

The US "game" is much more interesting and sad.
They are esentially allowing some more of what they see as "creative destruction" to go on unhindered because they have not learned anything at all since 2003.
Make them taste ashes now so they'll swallow liberal democracy later.

redspider

Excellent post Carry. I agree with what you say.

Carry wrote:

With a familiar f***-up by the Brits (I don't get into this now cause it's a long story of crumbling empires) they founded a country where they had historical roots but no actual need to displace and kill countless Arab people just to find a home.
I know it's more complicated than that like everything but basicly the initial aggression came from the state of Israel. There was no strong Muslim movement, just people doing their business and praying to their god.

By the way, did anyone ever consider that Judaism is the predecessor of Christianity and Christianity the predecessor of Islam? The three monotheistic religions do come from the same roots. Like Protestantism is a further diversity in Christianity. Would anyone in Ireland really talk about a religious war in the North? It's never about religion, it's about power. Always.

You are right. When Israel was created in 1948, by the British, it was in fact far from a bloodless creation of a new state. In fact, what was carried out there was ethnic cleansing and the forcible removal of people (Palestinians) from their homeland, 800,000 or more. This creation by force was not only wrong, but its a wound from the past that has yet to be healed and will remain a wound until it is healed.

One problem is that many in the west have no idea of what 1948 was all about, or indeed 1967. I had my memory refreshed last night by a documentary that was on TG4, Fiorscaeal, which I understand is a German-made program just translated, perhaps its Explosiv or something from ARD, ZDF or RTL.

The UN, as I understand (not from the programme), has several resolutions against Israel outstanding and of course there are many that didnt make it the US used their veto.

Hezbollah are a more recent development in the area, and should be seen as a symptom of the underlying problems, not the cause. Lebanon also had its own problems with a long-lasting civil war.

In terms of the second point you made above, religion is used as a label. Its a simple marker for cultural differences. In 20,000 BC, humans used paints on their bodies, jewelry or other garb and language is always a differentiator, as is race, etc. Indeed, most of the people who are involved in these wars with religion or countries and nationality used as a basis, aren't practicioners of their faiths. All the religions you mention do not condone klling or attempting killings or harm, not even Islam, although the history of Muhammed fighting to protect his 'one true faith' allows some to exploit that with an eye for an eye attitude, but Islam respects all life in principle.

Many people are blind to the inequality, not only in this situation, but also inequality throughout the world, and just continue in their daily lives but they are unwittingly adding to the inequalities, as they strive to get richer, and as problems left unresolved (such as the displacement of the Palestinians in 1948) fester.

eg: in Ireland, the public were not able to stop the US forces from using Shannon. Hence, we, as a nation, are complicit in the 'killing machine' that is carrying out atrocities in Iraq, and that is a world power which is now allowing Israel to kill people until it feels like stopping.

Only when the US decides that it is in its (US) interests to stop the killing, will it bring any pressure at all to bear on Israel. For now, it is going through the motions where its inaction is resulting in death, on both sides. And Israel is more than willing to sacrifice its own people and soldiers, not to mention knowingly killing innocent people in Lebanon.

Neo-Liberals in the US may condone these sort of actions and may think they will lead to final situations which benefit the US, but I dont think so. Iraq is a clear lesson in that and Lebanon will be as well. Israel has created more enemies internationally and locally, a step in the wrong direction.

By the way, in terms of the letter someone wrote to the Independent above, a very poor analysis indeed.

Redspider

Morlar

Slainte70 wrote:

I found a well-written article in the Independent today.....gives a better understanding of where exactly everyone is coming from...

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=45&si=1658738&issue_id=14403

Sorry but all that does it give a better understanding of blinkered 'pro-israel at all costs' type thinking.

Diogenes

Extremely well written article in todays guardian

The ambulanceman gave Ali the job of keeping his mother alive. The 12-year-old did what he could. "Mama, mama, don't go to sleep," he sobbed, gently patting her face beneath her chin. Behind her black veil, her eyelids were slowly sinking. "I'm going to die," she sighed. "Don't say that, mama," Ali begged, and then slid to the ground in tears.

On the pavement around mother and son were the other members of the Sha'ita family, their faces spattered with each other's blood. All were in varying shades of shock and injury. A tourniquet was tied on Ali's mother's arm. A few metres away, his aunt lay motionless, the white T-shirt beneath her abaya stained red. Two sisters hugged each other and wept, oblivious to the medics tending their wounds. "Let them take me, let them take me," one screamed.

The Sha'itas had thought they were on the road to safety when they set out yesterday, leaving behind a village which because of an accident of geography - it is five miles from the Israeli border - had seemed to make their home a killing ground. They had been ordered to evacuate by the Israelis.

But they were a little too slow and became separated from the other vehicles fleeing the Israeli air offensive in south Lebanon. Minutes before the Guardian's car arrived, trailing a Red Cross ambulance on its way to other civilian wounded in another town, an Israeli missile pierced the roof of the Sha'itas' white van. Three passengers sitting in the third row were killed instantly, including Ali's grandmother. Sixteen other passengers were wounded. In recent days, families like the Sha'itas are bearing the brunt of Israel's air campaign and its efforts to rid the area of civilians before ground operations. A day after Israel's deadline for people to leave their homes and flee north of the Litani river, roads which in ordinary times wind lazily through tobacco fields and banana groves have been turned into highways of death.

How can anyone justify this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1827422,00.html

Morlar

On the tv news at lunchtime there was a reporter who dropped what he was going to say to talk about an israeli helicopter attack on 2 ambulances which were transferring patients from one to the other (so that the first could head back to fill up again). Both were rocketed wounding the crew who were standing around and doing more damage to the wounded inside. In addition to that there was apparently
an israeli hit on the un compound.

*links
Ambulances targeted;
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/ambulances-fired-on-by-israel-says-red-cross/2006/07/24/1153593272695.html

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&hs=Qy1&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official_s&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=israel+attack+ambulances+lebanon&spell=1

UN Compound ;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5202142.stm

redspider

Does anyone know of an equivalent board to boards.ie running in Israel?

It would be useful and perhaps of some benefit, less miniscule than what we can do in this country, talking to people over there directly.

As mentioned in my previous post, I have had some business dealings with Israeli people and indeed I still have. But talkin with people in general and ones atht you dont know can be of benefit.

any pointers, blogspots, etc, welcome ....

Redspider

The Saint

http://www.israelforum.com/

Try this. Be warned though. Most posters here are very right wing, bordering on racist, and not terribly open to dissenting views. Most people and the worst here are American Jews also with Israelis and some Europeans. I just got frustrated any time I tried to participate on this board so I don't ever bother anymore.

Bookee

OMG - What about the phospherous they're using on their weapons....?
Was SHOCKED when I saw a report on CNN showing Lebannese children badly effected. The Doctor reckoned it was Phospherous, and when CNN asked the Israelis to comment, they said that all their weapons complied with UN Weapon regulations (ie Phospherous is NOT illegal)......!

Carry

redspider wrote:

Does anyone know of an equivalent board to boards.ie running in Israel?

It would be useful and perhaps of some benefit, less miniscule than what we can do in this country, talking to people over there directly.

As mentioned in my previous post, I have had some business dealings with Israeli people and indeed I still have. But talkin with people in general and ones atht you dont know can be of benefit.

any pointers, blogspots, etc, welcome ....

Redspider

I tried myself to find some first hand information:

As above already mentioned there is the www.israelforum.com and the www.theisraelforum.org. I think they are both Jewish-American.
Then there is a forum on www.virtualjerusalem.com. That's from Israel.
Otherwise it is interesting to read the Jerusalem Post: www.jpost.com. They have a blog, too.

Being balanced I read of course http://english.aljazeera.net
Not to forget the http://forums.beirut.com

To learn something cultural from Iran, how younger and urban people tick, there is a quite interesting but not really political blog on http://i.hoder.com/weblog.

I run a small B&B here in the west and had guests from Israel last year who will be coming back this August. Very nice people, we get on very well. It will really be interesting to get first hand information. I might condemn Israel's politics but I don't assume that every Israeli is a mindless killer.
Pity that I don't have any contacts in Beirut anymore.

metrovelvet

Can you smell the pounds of flesh burning?

There is a link in the article below [which I think is the same as what Bookey was referring to] which will lead you to some disturbing images [video] of children who are badly burned. The doctor thinks its phosphorous in the weapons but there is no "official" confirmation as of yet.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/23/perry.tyre/index.html

Dirk Gently

The Saint wrote:

http://www.israelforum.com/

Try this. Be warned though. Most posters here are very right wing, bordering on racist, and not terribly open to dissenting views. Most people and the worst here are American Jews also with Israelis and some Europeans. I just got frustrated any time I tried to participate on this board so I don't ever bother anymore.

That's one hell of an ugly forum. Just had a quick look through some of the threads and it was depressing to say the least. I think your description of "very right wing" was putting it mildly. A lot of them are complaining that America always sides with the Arabs at the expense of the Israelis

A lot of calls to wipe out "all the Arabs" and calls to "end the Islamic religion world wide by use of force". They appear to think that the U.S. administration is a bunch of left wing liberals for not invading Iran and Syria years ago and my personal favourite nutty claim..... The war in Iraq ended years ago, it is a free democratic country now and America is only rebuilding the infrastructure now and people should shut up talking about a war that does not exist.