Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah Crisis Thread was the "Is Israel right" thread

Bookee

Sand wrote:

I can see the logic of Hizbollah building their base as close as possible to the UN position with a view to using them as human shields.

...And there it is !! I was wondering how long it would take !

tallus

The fact that they shelled the rescue team speaks volumes, the IDF don't hold any value on human life, end of story.

Manic Moran

The UN's UNIFIL website has a record of the various UNIFIL reports over the last few years. http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/unifilDrp.htm

For example, from the Jul 2005-Jan 2006 report:
Some Hizbollah positions are in close proximity to United Nations positions, posing additional security risks to United Nations personnel and equipment. This situation has not yet been rectified despite repeated objections conveyed by UNIFIL to the Lebanese authorities

I would have still thought the Israelis would be capable of distinguishing between the two though, even if they were somewhat close. I'll still go with "Israel knew they were bombing the UN checkpoint" until shown otherwise. (From 20,000ft, one OP probably looks just like the one just over there from it...)

NTM

tallus

I'd agree as the checkpoint has apparently been there for a number of years and the missile that hit the post was a precision guided one. It had to be deliberate.

Dirk Gently

Sand wrote:

Im aware that some dont think Israelis have a right to live in Israel and that this can easily lead to believing Israelis dont have a right to live in Israel. So so maybe the Israeli right to defend the lives of their people isnt a complelling argument, and ratios are preferable..

I recognise the Israeli right to exist and their right to defend themselves but that doesn't give them free reign to exceed self defence and openly attack and destroy another country in the name of defence. What is going on is not self defence, it is a massacure of non-combatants. unfortunetly some people justify Israeli state terrorism by claiming anyone critisising Israeli actions simply dont want to recognise the Israeli states existance.

Sand wrote:

Well it matters when it comes to evaluating whether the shell that hit the bunker was targeted at the Hizbollah position or the UN one. If the Hizbollah position was 40 miles west of the UN position then it stretches credibility that it could have been a miss on the Hizbollah position. If the Hizbollah position was 400 meters west of the UN position, then its not so incredible that a miss on the Hizbollah position might hit the UN.

Maybe the continuous shelling which hit the compound could reasonably be argued by those who defend all things Israeli as "unfortunate" or "unavoidable" but during and after the shelling the IDF was warned many times that they were hitting the U.N. post and that the post was occupied by un armed U.N. personnel.

After these warnings the Israelis then used a precision weapon to accurately pin point and destroy the out post despite being well aware of what the outpost was and who was in it. The fact that is was a "smart" weapon which would have had to of been assigned a target and the fact that the target they programmed the smart weapon to destroy was a known and populated U.N. outpost means that it would have had to of been a deliberate and planned attack on a friendly target. It is clear from the precision weapons used to bomb other locations, such as the airport that the weapons are extremely accurate as they were able to hit the run ways of the airport in an almost straight line right down the centre of the run-way.

The only way it could be twisted around by Israeli apologists is if it was not a precision weapon and that the weapon went off course. That was not the case though. The weapon was giving a pre assigned target and it hit that target accurately. Don’t forget that they even targeted U.N. personnel who tried to mount a rescue operation after the “mistake”. They knew before, during and after what the target was and they went ahead anyway.

I notice a big reluctance on the part of some to condemn war crimes or terrorism when carried out by good old western friendly state forces. It is ok to condemn such things without "switching sides" as you might see it and becoming "the enemy". It doesn’t mean you’re a Hezbollah supporter if you recognise that Israel is not pure and peaceful. Criticising Israeli war crimes also does not mean that you want to see Israel wiped off the map. It just means that you are a balanced observer and can recognise wrongs on both sides instead of trying to twist and justify on side over the other.

A Dub in Glasgo

Apologists still defending Israel even after they have slaughtered hundreds of civilians and a number of Red Cross & UN personnel.

Burgermaster

It's amazing all the west and the UN have failed to mention Hizbollah fired rockets from the UN posistion, Unfil did not react and would not as they are a weak and incompetent force.

The Drone went over, sent the co-ordinates back the area was "DF'd" (Direct Fired) standard response.

Also they were not "Observers" they were "Peacekeepers" hence were armed, a perimeter incursion by Hizbollah gave them the right to fire on them to keep them away from the posistion.

This is another UN anti-semtic lie, I stood in Qana when Hizbollah fired rockets 10 metres from the Fiji Batt Compound and ran into the Bunker.

I saw the Polish trucks take hizbollah terrorists to beriut so the IAF would not fire on them.


Clear and simple Islam Terrrorist Tactic get Peacekeepers and Civilians killed for the Purpose of propaganda.

It's amazing the support on this one thread for hizbollah and Muslim terrorists, and point to note Ammal and Hizbollah have killed several Irish soldiers purposly in Lebanon between 82 and 2000.


A lot of you are armchair experts how many have been there as your opinions are based on Media reports (which are predominantly bias and wrong) and what you see on the internet.


I spend 2 years within the buffer zone, as an Irish Solider and former member of the IDF I spent time in Judea and samaria.

If anyone here has actual experience or fact please comment as the vitriol and anti-Israeli (Semtic) comments here is disgusting and if you are anti-Israeli you are als0 anti-semtic you have to call a spade a spade.


Most people here would only be happy when every Jew and Israeli is dead and replaced by an oppresive islamic state that would opress and anhilate it's own people.


ISRAEL IS RIGHT simple as that the answer to the first Question.

Mistakes happen in war.

Islamic Terrorists Target Civilians

Israel does not

Islam preaches brutality and opression.

Judaism and Chrisitanity does not.

Islamic countries are corrupt brutal non democratic regimes

Israel is democratic


SIMPLE AS THAT

All the nazi lovers on this thread should have been in the SS.

Gordon

Burgermaster wrote:

All the nazi lovers on this thread should have been in the SS.

Troll. I'm not speaking for the Politics mods here, but as a smod - if you throw around such wild allegations while clearing the froth from the corners of your mouth again you'll get a temp siteban.

Also, why do you say that anti Israeli sentiments equals anti semitism? Israel isn't populated completely by Jewish people. I thought you would know that seeing as you've been there.

Dirk Gently

Burgermaster wrote:

If anyone here has actual experience or fact please comment as the vitriol and anti-Israeli (Semtic) comments here is disgusting and if you are anti-Israeli you are als0 anti-semtic you have to call a spade a spade.


Most people here would only be happy when every Jew and Israeli is dead and replaced by an oppresive islamic state that would opress and anhilate it's own people.

All the nazi lovers on this thread should have been in the SS.

I refere you to my reply above which I will reproduce for you again for your convienience.

me a few minutes ago wrote:

I notice a big reluctance on the part of some to condemn war crimes or terrorism when carried out by good old western friendly state forces. It is ok to condemn such things without "switching sides" as you might see it and becoming "the enemy". It doesn’t mean you’re a Hezbollah supporter if you recognise that Israel is not pure and peaceful. Criticising Israeli war crimes also does not mean that you want to see Israel wiped off the map. It just means that you are a balanced observer and can recognise wrongs on both sides instead of trying to twist and justify on side over the other..

I take it from your view point that nobody is allowed comment on the situation unless you are a former or serving IDF member or unless you are blindly pro-Israeli regardless of whether the action is right or wrong. All reports I've heard are that the U.N. personnel were un-armed and were infact "observers" and not "peace keepers" not that I see that as making any difference. It might turn out that you are right and they were armed but that is irrelevant and I'll wait until it has been confirmed by sources other than the IDF or Hezbollah.


Is what you’re saying about the U.N. observers been armed meant to mean that the IDF recognised that once they were armed they should have defended the outpost and were therefore justified in taking out the armed U.N. observers as well as the Hezbollah you claim occupied the site. Anyway, the IDF is claiming it was a mistake and not deliberately targeted so that rules out that theory anyway.


Accepting criticism is part and parcel of a "civilised" or “defensive” military operation. To attack all criticism and accuse those raising questions as been enemy sympathisers would be consistent with a totalitarian dictatorship with something to hide; therefore I’m sure you will agree that accountability is an important part of any “justified” operation.

Manic Moran

clown bag wrote:

The only way it could be twisted around by Israeli apologists is if it was not a precision weapon and that the weapon went off course. That was not the case though. The weapon was giving a pre assigned target and it hit that target accurately.

There is another possibility: That the weapon hit exactly what it was aimed at, but the pilot aimed at the wrong structure.

I'm not saying that it's the case, and I'm a little skeptical about it, but if you can imagine looking through a thermal camera from 20,000ft, identfying one OP from another OP might be a bit difficult, and the pilot just put the crosshairs on the wrong blob on the screen. Of course, you then have to argue over if the Israelis should be bombing at all in such circumstances when mistaken ID is possible.

It does beg the question that when Hezbullah created positions uncomfortably close to UN positions, why the UN didn't just move them away themselves when it became obvious that complaints to Lebanon were going unheeded? Not as if the UN isn't armed sufficiently to enforce a buffer zone around itself.

NTM

tallus

clown bag wrote:

I refere you to my reply above which I will reproduce for you again for your convienience.


I take it from your view point that nobody is allowed comment on the situation unless you are a former or serving IDF member or unless you are blindly pro-Israeli regardless of whether the action is right or wrong. All reports I've heard are that the U.N. personnel were un-armed and were infact "observers" and not "peace keepers" not that I see that as making any difference. It might turn out that you are right and they were armed but that is irrelevant and I'll wait until it has been confirmed by sources other than the IDF or Hezbollah.


Is what you’re saying about the U.N. observers been armed meant to mean that the IDF recognised that once they were armed they should have defended the outpost and were therefore justified in taking out the armed U.N. observers as well as the Hezbollah you claim occupied the site. Anyway, the IDF is claiming it was a mistake and not deliberately targeted so that rules out that theory anyway.


Accepting criticism is part and parcel of a "civilised" or “defensive” military operation. To attack all criticism and accuse those raising questions as been enemy sympathisers would be consistent with a totalitarian dictatorship with something to hide; therefore I’m sure you will agree that accountability is an important part of any “justified” operation.

excellent post, you articulated what I couldn't

DublinWriter

Burgermaster wrote:

ISRAEL IS RIGHT simple as that the answer to the first Question.

Mistakes happen in war.

Islamic Terrorists Target Civilians

Israel does not

Islam preaches brutality and opression.

Judaism and Chrisitanity does not.

Islamic countries are corrupt brutal non democratic regimes

Israel is democratic


SIMPLE AS THAT

My friend, you are on very dodgy ground when you start comparing religions to political systems. Seeing as you've said you've served in the Lebanon you'll know that Lebanon is also a democracy.

Irish people were branded as terrorists all around the world in the 70's and 80's. The irony is so thick that you could cut it with a knife.

Dirk Gently

Manic Moran wrote:

There is another possibility: That the weapon hit exactly what it was aimed at, but the pilot aimed at the wrong structure.

That’s true, I think the weapon hit its intended target alright but it possibly could have been the wrongly identified target but I think that is highly unlikely given the fact that they were repeatedly warned about the location and that it was already a well established U.N. position. At the very least it was incompetence and not only that but incompetence in a situation where they knew that extra caution and scrutiny was needed in advance.

I think given the circumstances reasonable doubt would satisfy that it was deliberate but absolute vindication would only be satisfied if the person who fired the weapon confirmed that he deliberately and knowingly targeted the U.N. outpost.

Based on accounts given today it looks like a deliberate attack, it will be interesting to see what if any comment the Israelis will make after an internal investigation.

The outpost had radio communications and a satellite dish attached to the side of a mast. Would it not emit an identifying signal to any aircraft as to its location and function? I'm not talking actual two way communication with an aircraft or any other more sophisticated communication but rather a simple beacon to signal that it was a U.N. location.

A Dub in Glasgo

Burgermaster wrote:

Some stuff

lol Apologists for Israeli terror must love your apologist excuses and evasions lol

metrovelvet

Greetings from Jew York City.

Im sorry - I cant remember the name of the woman who was speaking but she was a Lebanese representative being interviewed on BBC News [which I watch as its the only thing which cures my insomnia, not for its journalistic integrity-though this will have to stop as the dreams about Lebanon are getting a little tiresome] and she claimed that there was a history of UN Peacekeepers collaborating with Hezbollah. Does anyone know more?

Burgermeister - what is experience next to what is cast out by the BBC [Baghdad Broadcasting Corporation]? A witness counts for nothing compared to the reports of an overprivaleged Oxford graduate who got his job from one of Daddy's friends.

Yes Isreal has the right to defend itself, but the proportion at which it is retaliating is stunning, even to American eyes. I get that you dont **** with the jews, but wow.

wes

Burgermaster wrote:

ISRAEL IS RIGHT simple as that the answer to the first Question.

Mistakes happen in war.

Islamic Terrorists Target Civilians

Israel does not

Islam preaches brutality and opression.

Judaism and Chrisitanity does not.

Islamic countries are corrupt brutal non democratic regimes

Israel is democratic


SIMPLE AS THAT

All the nazi lovers on this thread should have been in the SS.

No Islam does not preach violence some interpret the Koran that way and others don't. Both the Bible and Torah have been interpreted that way as well. Simply, there are some Muslims, Jews and Christians who claims there holy book gives the a god given right to violence or land or whatever they want. I think you will find plenty of past examples of someone using each religion as an excuse for violence. So picking on one religion here makes no sense, when everyone of them has been used by some nutter as an excuse to kill people. Also You can't lump all of us Muslims into the same boat just as I wouldn't say all catholic preists are child molesters, because a few did it.

As for Israel being right, they certainly have a right for self defence, but there actions long term won't result in there safety. They should have used international pressure to get the Lebanese government to do something about Hezbollah and used inteligence to root out these terrorists. This wasn't even attempted and they went in guns blazing. I think we all know full well that won't work long term. Terrorism can not be fault by conventional means, we have to take a different approach to defeat it and rid the world of them.

keano_afc

Sorry wes but Islam does preach violence. Its the reason for its existence. The extermination of Israel and the conversion of the whole world, by any means possible, is the message of Islam. It makes me mad that the world is so blind to this murderous cult. How else can you interpret verses that encourage followers to kill unbelievers?

uberpixie

Burgermaster wrote:

If anyone here has actual experience or fact please comment as the vitriol and anti-Israeli (Semtic) comments here is disgusting and if you are anti-Israeli you are als0 anti-semtic you have to call a spade a spade.

I'm sorry. I have bitched about the actions of the Irish government in the past to my friends.

I have only now realised that this means i'm obviously anti Irish, hate my fellow Irish men and want to see them all wiped off the face of the earth.

I'm sorry. I apologise to every person in Ireland and will now take myself outside to my garden and beat myself to death.

I am so, so sorry for any inconvience I have caused this great country of ours and my wonderful fellow country men.

Burgermaster wrote:

Most people here would only be happy when every Jew and Israeli is dead and replaced by an oppresive islamic state that would opress and anhilate it's own people.

No. I, like most people here am disgusted by the amount of innocent people in Israel, Palestine and the Lebannon being murdered, while all the various political factions on all sides insist on playing politics for their own selfish gains using civilians as bargin chips and pawns.

Burgermaster wrote:

ISRAEL IS RIGHT simple as that the answer to the first Question.
Mistakes happen in war.
Islamic Terrorists Target Civilians
Israel does not

Israel does indeed target civilians.

IDF mass murdered 20,000 Palestinian refugees in a refuge camp in 1982.
(US blocked the motion in the UN to condemn Israel for the action)

The IDF have sniped red cross workers, who were clearly marked as red cross workers, whose only crime was to give medical attention to wounded Palestinians.

The IDF have bulldozed over Peace activists.

The IDF have bulldozed people in their own homes, as funnily enough they wouldn't leave their homes as they objected to be kicked out and loosing their land to settlers from Israel.

All in all the IDF commits lots of "acidents" on a regular basis, far too regular to be chance.

Burgermaster wrote:

Islam preaches brutality and opression.

Judaism and Chrisitanity does not.

Islamic countries are corrupt brutal non democratic regimes

Israel is democratic

Last I checked, the Klu Klux Klan were a nice bunch of religious Christians, with strong Christian moral and family values who just happen to aim for the murder out of all Black people.

There are plenty of "religious" groups who preach hate, be it Christian, Muslim or whatever.

Last I checked the core values of Christanity and Islam are similar: love your god, love your neighbour, dont kill etc...

Hate the extremists who peddle hate disguised as belief and religion, not the religion!:mad:

Really you call everyone here anti semetic for claiming that what Israel is doing is wrong.

People are saying it's wrong because the IDF is killing many innocent Lebbonese and seems hell bent on crippling the country.

Not they're wrong cause they're Jews.

Really you just seem to hate all Muslims and tar them all with the same brush. if anyone is being racist it's you.

The fact you don't see it is both funny and tragic.

Dirk Gently

metrovelvet wrote:

Burgermeister - what is experience next to what is cast out by the BBC [Baghdad Broadcasting Corporation]? A witness counts for nothing compared to the reports of an overprivaleged Oxford graduate who got his job from one of Daddy's friends.
.

It depends whether the little over privileged Oxford Graduate is reporting the facts as he sees them on the ground or whether he is giving an opinion. If he is reporting the reality of the situation on the ground then his report is worth more than someones opinion based on previous experience of the Area.

Any opinionated report must be taken with a pinch of salt but a factual account of reality is very desirable. There are those who would have the opposite view of you in that the BBC is biased in the opposite way in which you suggest. Everyone will accuse someone of bias if they don’t report what they feel they want to hear.

There is a lot to be said for unemotional and un opinionated reporting. It is their job to report the news not give an opinion on it. A good tip would be to watch or read a report from someone you would consider pro- Israeli and then someone you would consider anti-Israeli and judge for yourself on what is fact and what is opinion after you have seen what you perceive to be opposing views on a single incident. The reporting itself is suppose to be factual and then guests on the news programme will often give an opinion based on the report.

DublinWriter

uberpixie wrote:

Israel does indeed target civilians.

IDF mass murdered 20,000 Palestinian refugees in a refuge camp in 1982.
(US blocked the motion in the UN to condemn Israel for the action)

The IDF have sniped red cross workers, who were clearly marked as red cross workers, whose only crime was to give medical attention to wounded Palestinians.

The IDF have bulldozed over Peace activists.

The IDF have bulldozed people in their own homes, as funnily enough they wouldn't leave their homes as they objected to be kicked out and loosing their land to settlers from Israel.

All in all the IDF commits lots of "acidents" on a regular basis, far too regular to be chance.

Last I checked, the Klu Klux Klan were a nice bunch of religious Christians, with strong Christian moral and family values who just happen to aim for the murder out of all Black people.

There are plenty of "religious" groups who preach hate, be it Christian, Muslim or whatever.

Last I checked the core values of Christanity and Islam are similar: love your god, love your neighbour, dont kill etc...

Hate the extremists who peddle hate disguised as belief and religion, not the religion!:mad:

Really you call everyone here anti semetic for claiming that what Israel is doing is wrong.

Many strong points well put uberpixie. Well done.

One of the protesters crushed by a bulldozer that you mentioned was actually a British anti-Zionist Jew. Go figure, as they say.

I think the current Lebanese affair will be the last time Isreal can play their overused 'Nazi persected' get-out-of-jail free card.

After hearing some old Tory arch-right wingers on BBC Radio 4's 'Any Questions?' last Saturday compare Isreali policy to that of the Nazi's, I knew I wasn't being just and old leftie anymore in thinking the same myself.

DublinWriter

metrovelvet wrote:

Burgermeister - what is experience next to what is cast out by the BBC [Baghdad Broadcasting Corporation]? A witness counts for nothing compared to the reports of an overprivaleged Oxford graduate who got his job from one of Daddy's friends.

Your opinion is so much mindless stick banging in a bucket of uninformed swill.

Two words - Rageh Omah.

BBC=Very Good. CNN=Stinks a little. Fox News=Stinks a lot. You=need to do your homework.

LostinBlanch

Further to the attack on the UN compound, I have seen pictures of it on the news it was clearly marked UN on the roof of the two storey building and on the walls of the compound. It might as well have had blue flashing lights and a red cross symbol on top. Oh wait . . . . .

I am perfectly prepared to believe Irish army colonel, John Molloy who is the UN liason with the IDF when he said that he rang them six times prior to the compound being destroyed.The last time there was a direct hit on the armoured front door of the compound just before the guided missile hit.

Burgermaster, re your ridiculous claim that anyone who disagrees with you is anti semite. Calling people nazis means you don't feel you can win any argument. But hey don't let the facts get in the way of your predujices. Personally speaking I look forward to Israel living in a secure peaceful co existence with it's neighbours (behind the 1967 border).

Speaking of facts.
{QUOTE/Burgermast] Also they were not "Observers" they were "Peacekeepers" hence were armed, a perimeter incursion by Hizbollah gave them the right to fire on them to keep them away from the posistion.
[/QUOTE]

Can I refer you to todays UNIFIL press release?
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr010.pdf
It states that the UN personnel were part of "Observer Group Lebanon (OGL) "with "4 unarmed international observers in the position".
But then again maybe you don't read facts that don't fit your worldview.

You are right about the Lebanese killing a number of Irish troops (about 50%) of course the IDF and it's South Lebanese Army proxy killed the other 50%. People in greenhouses and all that.

Anyway I hope that you can respond to these without having a heart attack (not good for you).

Manic Moran

LostinBlanch wrote:

Further to the attack on the UN compound, I have seen pictures of it on the news it was clearly marked UN on the roof of the two storey building and on the walls of the compound. It might as well have had blue flashing lights and a red cross symbol on top. Oh wait . . .

Probably wouldn't have shown up in a thermal imager/flir. Just playing Devil's Advocate.

NTM

oscarBravo

Gordon wrote:

I'm not speaking for the Politics mods here...

I am. Burgermaster is banned from Politics for two weeks.

oscarBravo

DublinWriter wrote:

Your opinion is so much mindless stick banging in a bucket of uninformed swill.

Tone it down, DW, or you'll be joining BurgerMaster on vacation.

Manic Moran

Interesting comment by Canadian Major General Lewis MacKenzie quoting the Canadian officer killed by the UN (who he knew). I presume this was the same Canadian officer I quoted in the CTV interview a few pages back, who was sending out emails.

Real-audio interview. About 3:30 minutes in.
http://cbc.ca/metromorning/media/20060726LMCJUL26.ram

what he was telling us was Hizbullah fighters were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them...

Really makes one wonder what the ROEs are for UNIFIL. If I were the UN with Hezbullah that close and attracting Israeli fire, I'd probably be shooting them if I had a choice.

NTM

Sgt. Sensible

Manic Moran wrote:

Probably wouldn't have shown up in a thermal imager/flir. Just playing Devil's Advocate.

NTM

You do realise that the attack went on for 6 hours and that 10 phone calls were made to the Israelis begging them to stop.

The Irish Republic filed an official protest with Israel, in which it said that Lieutenant-Colonel John Molloy, its senior Lebanon peacekeeper and a key UN figure liaising with the Israel Defence Forces, had given six specific phone warnings about the Khiam post.

“He warned the Israelis that they were shelling in very close proximity to the post, and his warnings were very specific, explicit, detailed and stark,” said Suzanne Coogan, a spokeswoman for Willie O’Dea, the Irish Defence Minister. “Obviously those warnings went unheeded.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2287599,00.html

Are you sure you're just playing devil's advocate?

metrovelvet

DublinWriter wrote:

Your opinion is so much mindless stick banging in a bucket of uninformed swill.

Two words - Rageh Omah.

BBC=Very Good. CNN=Stinks a little. Fox News=Stinks a lot. You=need to do your homework.

Why?

What do you mean by Rageh Omah?

Dirk Gently

metrovelvet wrote:

What does Rageh Omah mean?

google is your friend.

Pocari Sweat

It said on BBC news 24, that the UN post was targetted by Israeli positions and tanks for 6 hours, and the building had clear UN markings in giant letters, very visible.

The UN post had been established for many years and it was assumed the Isreali tanks should have not obviously known who they were, but also read by the markings that it was a UN post.

It was only after several official calls were made from the UN post to the Israeli commanders stating that the Israeli tanks were gunning their position and asking them to call them off, when the Israeli commanders then sent in an F16 with precision guided bombs to knock out the UN post killing the 4 monitors, including 1 Chinese delegate.

The Israelis went overkill in the beginning when 2 soldiers were kidnapped without any confirmation of their deaths, but they go and knock out an official UN post actually killing 4 civilian observers from the United Nations, so they obviously don't mind what excuses they use or how many people they kill.